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Author Topic: Gray Scale Tonality  (Read 3418 times)

DavidPalermo

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Gray Scale Tonality
« on: November 19, 2014, 03:18:48 pm »

Hi All,  I am rather new here and could not find the answer to this question about tonality.  Some of Edward Weston's photographs of the Dunes in Death Valley have very very nice  smooth transitions between subtle tones of gray that is incredible.  You can view some here:  http://ccp-emuseum.catnet.arizona.edu/view/objects/asimages/search@swg'Weston','Dunes,%20Death%20Valley','true'?t:state:flow=90e71c64-71b2-4025-98bf-7c96904d759f

I know he used a large format 8x10 camera and I realize that there is a lot of information contained in his negatives. 

What I am trying to do is to get as much as I possible can from my D810 which has a pretty nice sensor.  I realize I won't get what Weston (and others) were able to achieve but I work hard to get as close as I can with what equipment I have.

I am exposing to the right and processing my RAW files in the current version of LightRoom.  I am also exploring Bob DiNatale's exposure method.

I am tweaking the individual color sliders in LightRoom as well...etc...  I am getting very good results but strive to get better results so if any of you have any new methods or great tried and true methods I would love to hear them!

Thanks!

David
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KMRennie

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Re: Gray Scale Tonality
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2014, 06:45:55 pm »

Have a look at Martin Henson's approach to monochrome conversion and his idea of using contrast grading. It has certainly helped me and I use my own version based loosely on his work.
Good luck and I envy you your camera. Ken

http://www.martinhensonphotography.co.uk/the-digital-monochrome-learning-forum
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DavidPalermo

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Re: Gray Scale Tonality
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2014, 09:22:59 pm »

Thank you KNRennie,

I will look into his method however it looks like I have to buy it first and I will pass on that until I know more about it.  Yes the D810 is great so far... I also have a D800E that am selling.  I use a D610 for work so I don't really need the D800E.  I can use my D610 as a backup.


Quote
Have a look at Martin Henson's approach to monochrome conversion and his idea of using contrast grading. It has certainly helped me and I use my own version based loosely on his work.
Good luck and I envy you your camera. Ken

http://www.martinhensonphotography.co.uk/the-digital-monochrome-learning-forum

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Schewe

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Re: Gray Scale Tonality
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2014, 11:50:47 pm »

I am tweaking the individual color sliders in LightRoom as well...etc...  I am getting very good results but strive to get better results so if any of you have any new methods or great tried and true methods I would love to hear them!

David, welcome to LuLa!

So, one of the limitations of doing B&W conversion in LR or ACR is that the conversion is global–meaning you can't really localize the panchromatic conversion. When faced with B&W conversions that are challenging due to color contrast, I revert to a technique I worked out using Photoshop and grayscale layers using RGB channels.

I have a PDF you can read: Custom Color to B&W Conversions on this page (at the bottom). It's dated in terms of the Photoshop UI but the technique remains; you take an RGB image, duplicate it and convert the dupe to grayscale. Then go back to the RGB image and target the RGB channels (one at a time) and copy the channels and paste as layers in the greyscale document. Then use layer masks to dictate what channels/layers show up and what strength (opacity).

The main function of this technique is to allow localized (by using the layer mask) panchromatic response.

Course, there are some other color>B&W techniques out there and some special software, but I don't use them. If I have a problem in LR converting, I resort to my technique.
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Schewe

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Re: Gray Scale Tonality
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2014, 11:52:41 pm »

BTW, not for nothing, but the best place to post this was prolly the Digital Imaging Processing sub-forum. But, hey, you're new here so I'll cut you some slack!
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Gray Scale Tonality
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2014, 04:16:36 am »

The main function of this technique is to allow localized (by using the layer mask) panchromatic response.

Indeed. Although I'm mainly a Color/Colour photographer, on occasions an abstraction in B/W or gray/greyscale can work well. However, to work really well, I also think it paramount to have the opportunity of utilizing the original panchromatic differences to make relevant changes to the grayscale rendering of the scene.

After having created differences in subject tonality based on the underlying color differences, for which great tools exist like Topaz B&W effects and Google Silver Efex Pro, there is also a lot that can be done with overall tonality and local contrast with amazing tools like Topaz Clarity.

Such tools are just way of reaching the goal faster (and in some cases produce better results), but with elaborate work with LR or Photoshop alone, one can already come a long way. Having access to the panchromatic basis of the image content is an important first step.

Cheers,
Bart
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Isaac

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Re: Gray Scale Tonality
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2014, 01:08:22 pm »

I am getting very good results but strive to get better results so if any of you have any new methods or great tried and true methods I would love to hear them!

Do you have a local library that can request books from other libraries?

"From Oz to Kansas: Almost Every Black and White Conversion Technique Known to Man"
« Last Edit: November 21, 2014, 02:32:47 pm by Isaac »
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DavidPalermo

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Re: Gray Scale Tonality
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2014, 11:24:05 pm »

I am experimenting with Jeff's method and I can see how powerful that is!  Give it a try. 

It's almost too powerful... well, not too powerful... it's just that he is correct in that you have a LOT of control in each channel. I have not seen that kind of control in any program.  I'm combing what he suggests with the Color Range tool in PS and it's beautiful but I still need more time with this method...

I have Silver Efex and even that doesn't do what Jeff's method does I don't think.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Gray Scale Tonality
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2014, 04:45:39 am »

I am experimenting with Jeff's method and I can see how powerful that is!  Give it a try.  

It's almost too powerful... well, not too powerful... it's just that he is correct in that you have a LOT of control in each channel. I have not seen that kind of control in any program.

Hi David,

It's one of the features of the Topaz Labs B&W effects plugin, for Photoshop and other PS plugin aware host programs.

Attached is a crop of the controls that specifically deal with overall color, not only RGB but also CMY controls to adjust the luminance of that color range (and inversely its complementary color). In addition you'll have the opportunity to simulate the use of a colored lens filter of any hue. But that's just part of the joy.

The adaptive exposure controls are also a very strong feature that works very effectively with B&W conversions, and there are loads of other useful tools, for (edge aware) local masks, beautiful Quad toning, a choice of film grain should one desire to use that, etc., etc.

Cheers,
Bart
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Schewe

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Re: Gray Scale Tonality
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2014, 06:14:24 pm »

It's one of the features of the Topaz Labs B&W effects plugin, for Photoshop and other PS plugin aware host programs.

So, Topaz B&W can provide masks to localize different B&W conversions using a mask?
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Gray Scale Tonality
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2014, 07:30:07 pm »

So, Topaz B&W can provide masks to localize different B&W conversions using a mask?

Hi Jeff,

Yes, 'B&W Effects' has masking capability, which allows to locally/selectively Dodge and/or Burn (combinations are possible because each gets their own mask), it allows to Restore Color locally with its own mask, and it allows to boost the detail level and/or smooth detail (also combinations due to separate masks). All of the masks also have their own erasers to adjust the individual masks with different settings if necessary, e.g. create a mask with soft borders (except for sharp edges) and erase parts of that with different size and hardness or opacity.

'B&W effects' also works with Smart Objects and Photoshop layers, so the possibilities to combine/blend multiple runs are endless.

Cheers,
Bart

P.S. It is also possible to work in stages, by only modifying part of the image as Black and White and revealing the original color for the rest of the image. One can then subsequently modify those still colored regions differently, by repeating the B&W conversion several times for the same layer, or use different layers.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2014, 04:51:58 am by BartvanderWolf »
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john beardsworth

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Re: Gray Scale Tonality
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2014, 03:51:58 am »

For those difficult images which seem to need local B&W conversion, I don't use Jeff's method but something similar, maybe a bit more modern - more than one B&W adjustment layer, with the lower ones masked to target specific image areas. The advantages are that the pixel layers remain fully editable, and I can use the Targeted Adjustment Tool to fine tune  conversions while keeping my eyes on the image's changing appearance.

But isn't the real answer less about specific conversion technique and more about recognising the kind of tonality you want to produce, and how specific tones are positioned around the composition? Ie knowing where you want to go.
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Gray Scale Tonality
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2014, 04:44:58 am »

But isn't the real answer less about specific conversion technique and more about recognising the kind of tonality you want to produce, and how specific tones are positioned around the composition? Ie knowing where you want to go.

Hi John,

Of course it's the intended result that counts, but the process to get there should not get in the way of achieving it, and not distract too much. Instantly updating previews during the development process really helps creativity. Having snapshots of different stages of the process, and controls that can be temporarily disabled after applying them also allows to backtrack and modify earlier settings because they may combine differently with later settings. It also allows to create a consistent baseline look for a series of images, and only modify portions of individual images, as needed.

Then there is also the possibility of trying out different renderings, to see which works best. It then helps to have a faster procedure, e.g. with presets that one has developed earlier, to explore different options. If it take a lot of effort, then often people tend to skip finding the optimum rendering.

Cheers,
Bart
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john beardsworth

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Re: Gray Scale Tonality
« Reply #13 on: November 23, 2014, 05:57:20 am »

I would agree there are workflow issues, Bart, and would never contend that every method is equal. Quite the contrary, for instance that's why I don't care for Jeff's pixel layer approach (awkward if you then need some retouching or want to fine tune the raw conversion). I'd also agree on experimentation/alternatives and I like Lightroom/Silver Efex features such as the preview when rolling over presets and using before/after for benchmarking.

But I'm really not saying "it's the intended result that counts", which you rightly treat as banal. Instead I think the answer to the OP lies more in developing one's ability to apply the right criteria to help you drive whatever may be the best technique. For example, the OP points to the importance of tonal transition in the sand dunes. Well, you reproduce those in your B&W by knowing you have to pay particular attention to tones in the the brighter images areas because especially in B&W the eye is drawn from dark to light. Or take a less monochromatic scene than the sand dunes, trees in autumn colours - here the criterion that drives your B&W conversion might be to separate tones in the reds and greens so the B&W image conveys that the trees' leaves vary in colour. Another classic example is skin tone - do you want to emphasize facial features or smooth them out, and is that appropriate to how you want the subject to appear? It's also about thinking where the tones lie in the fame - do you want the light tones around the edges, the sky light or dark, the subject of your photo to be mainly in darker tones etc.

So while I agree we should dismiss processes that do get in the way, are hard to fine tune, or have other objective deficiencies, I'd put more emphasis on developing that kind of understanding of B&W.

John
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Gray Scale Tonality
« Reply #14 on: November 23, 2014, 06:36:58 am »

But I'm really not saying "it's the intended result that counts", which you rightly treat as banal. Instead I think the answer to the OP lies more in developing one's ability to apply the right criteria to help you drive whatever may be the best technique. For example, the OP points to the importance of tonal transition in the sand dunes. Well, you reproduce those in your B&W by knowing you have to pay particular attention to tones in the the brighter images areas because especially in B&W the eye is drawn from dark to light.

I agree. I was especially concerned when David, the OP, said:
I am exposing to the right and processing my RAW files in the current version of LightRoom.

Lightroom, since process version 2012, uses significant highlight tone compression by default, which then becomes much harder to recover from at a later stage in post-processing such as B&W conversion. For such images with sand-dunes, I'd probably use a huge negative Highlight slider control adjustment (in the range of -50 to -100) to even have a fighting chance of making something appealing out of the Raw conversion to begin with. That's before even considering the B&W conversion, because even in Color it would be required although there we might have some subtle hue differences to help us.

So I agree, it requires a good foundation to build something solid. The tools are there to make the workflow easier, for the finishing touch, but they do not guarantee the outcome if there is not much to begin with. It's like sculpting stone or wood, the tools chisel away the parts that hide the statue within. There has to be something within to reveal. In our case it all begins with vision, light, and composition ...

Cheers,
Bart
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