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Author Topic: Action's Magic Moment, Frame Rate, Shutter Lag and Skill!  (Read 3671 times)

dwswager

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Action's Magic Moment, Frame Rate, Shutter Lag and Skill!
« on: November 18, 2014, 02:42:16 pm »

There has been a lot of discussion about frames per second since the introduction of the 10fps Canon 7DmkII.  This camera is said to be a great action (sports and wildlife) camera.  Since I shoot a lot of action, I started thinking about what is really necessary to shoot action well.  I'm an amateur and my cameras see all kinds of subjects from sports to studio portraits so, I need a more general camera.  I also lean toward image quality over all out speed.  That said, all else being equal, yes, I would opt for higher speed rather than not.

Some action is just so high speed, it takes fast technology to execute the shot.  In fact, some technologies just make the shot possible...like the bullet through the flame (Doc Edgerton pops in my head).  And some action is so unpredictable, so unexpected, that it is happy coincidence while blasting with really high frame rates that an image is captured at all.  But most action has patterns and predictability to it.

Shown in the chart is a generic representation of the Magic Moment and where a great image is made versus something boring.  A few points

1. The slope of the graph is different for every action event, but there is usually one fleeting moment of greatest impact.

2. The slope of such a graph might not be identical on both sides of the Magic Moment.  There might be better photos either prior to or just after than the other way around.

3. What exactly constitutes the magic moment might be open to debate, but usually it is the point of highest tension or visual impact.  Let's face it, a photo of a golf swing with the club perpendicular to vertical might be nice for instruction, but it is unlikely to make the cover of SI!

While the camera I shoot sports with will run at 6fps and I usually have it set that way, I find I'm more anticipatory of the moment than a blaster.  I'm watching hands through the hitting zone knowing the barrel will follow rather than blasting at the jerk of the bat.  I'm waiting for the soccer ball to enter the frame to capture the header than just shooting.  It seems to me low shutter lag is most important to me.  Fire the damn shutter when I press the button.  I just find that at the shutter speeds I normally shoot and at 6fps, there is very little likelihood that a random frame will capture the moment for me.  Given I capture the ball compressed on the bat of a hitter, the ball has left the frame by the time the 2nd frame fires.  With wildlife, I would suspect knowing the wildlife. Having observed it over time and how it reacts in different conditions under different stimuli would be most effective coupled with a large dose of patience and anticipation rather than expecting a high speed sequence to capture the moment. 

Just my thoughts.  I think skill is much more determinant of getting consistently good results.  Of course, a highly skilled photographer with a high speed camera is the optimum, but think the photographer is much more dominant in the equation.
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telyt

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Re: Action's Magic Moment, Frame Rate, Shutter Lag and Skill!
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2014, 09:42:33 pm »

Just my thoughts.  I think skill is much more determinant of getting consistently good results.  Of course, a highly skilled photographer with a high speed camera is the optimum, but think the photographer is much more dominant in the equation.

+1

It would be great to be able to predict which way a bird will turn its head, and when.  A fast frame rate does little when the limiting factor is the lag between the eye seeing the desired posture and the shutter opening.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Action's Magic Moment, Frame Rate, Shutter Lag and Skill!
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2014, 10:09:31 pm »

Quote
A fast frame rate does little when the limiting factor is the lag between the eye seeing the desired posture and the shutter opening.

Indeed, even if the photographer watches intensely his prey, that lag (consisting of visual interpretation, brain function to make a decision, and a motor command communicated to the nerves) may take half a second. He just missed 4 frames!
 
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spidermike

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Re: Action's Magic Moment, Frame Rate, Shutter Lag and Skill!
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2014, 05:35:46 pm »

One of the most pertinent comments I read from a sports photographer was 'if you see the action in the viewfinder you have already missed the shot' - skill is in predicting when that moment is going to happen. But at the end of the day it is about luck - the skill of the photographer and the frame rate of the camera merely change the success rate from abysmal to possible.

Of course you have Occam's razor to consider. When you have a burst sequence you will probably keep (or publish) the the best one, whether or not it is the perfect moment so in that respect the 'perfect moment' is secondary
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 05:37:50 pm by spidermike »
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dwswager

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Re: Action's Magic Moment, Frame Rate, Shutter Lag and Skill!
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2014, 08:21:12 pm »

One of the most pertinent comments I read from a sports photographer was 'if you see the action in the viewfinder you have already missed the shot' - skill is in predicting when that moment is going to happen. But at the end of the day it is about luck - the skill of the photographer and the frame rate of the camera merely change the success rate from abysmal to possible.

Of course you have Occam's razor to consider. When you have a burst sequence you will probably keep (or publish) the the best one, whether or not it is the perfect moment so in that respect the 'perfect moment' is secondary

The skill is knowing the predictive precursors to the action.  Even with a fast camera, the total time you are observing the action is way to long compared to the length of any realistic burst of frames. 
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kitalight

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Re: Action's Magic Moment, Frame Rate, Shutter Lag and Skill!
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2014, 08:30:25 pm »

Doesn't 10fps @ 1/1000 mean there are 990 shots missed per second....?

Never discount luck. :)

« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 08:37:20 pm by kitalight »
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dwswager

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Re: Action's Magic Moment, Frame Rate, Shutter Lag and Skill!
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2014, 10:12:40 pm »

Doesn't 10fps @ 1/1000 mean there are 990 shots missed per second....?

Never discount luck. :)



Awesome!  Luck is always a part of luck, but it is amazing how much luckier the highly skilled, well prepared are than others.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Action's Magic Moment, Frame Rate, Shutter Lag and Skill!
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2014, 03:32:28 pm »

Hi,

In my youth I used to shoot show jumping (horses jumping over fences). At that time we didn't have six FPS and films were 36 frames. At that time I think we learned to predict action, pressing the button before peak action. Now, I don't have that sense, it is taking a lot of experience.

Shooting at 6 FPS gives a decent chance to get peak action, no warranty but pretty good chance.

Exercise and knowing you subject always helps.

Best regards
Erik


There has been a lot of discussion about frames per second since the introduction of the 10fps Canon 7DmkII.  This camera is said to be a great action (sports and wildlife) camera.  Since I shoot a lot of action, I started thinking about what is really necessary to shoot action well.  I'm an amateur and my cameras see all kinds of subjects from sports to studio portraits so, I need a more general camera.  I also lean toward image quality over all out speed.  That said, all else being equal, yes, I would opt for higher speed rather than not.

Some action is just so high speed, it takes fast technology to execute the shot.  In fact, some technologies just make the shot possible...like the bullet through the flame (Doc Edgerton pops in my head).  And some action is so unpredictable, so unexpected, that it is happy coincidence while blasting with really high frame rates that an image is captured at all.  But most action has patterns and predictability to it.

Shown in the chart is a generic representation of the Magic Moment and where a great image is made versus something boring.  A few points

1. The slope of the graph is different for every action event, but there is usually one fleeting moment of greatest impact.

2. The slope of such a graph might not be identical on both sides of the Magic Moment.  There might be better photos either prior to or just after than the other way around.

3. What exactly constitutes the magic moment might be open to debate, but usually it is the point of highest tension or visual impact.  Let's face it, a photo of a golf swing with the club perpendicular to vertical might be nice for instruction, but it is unlikely to make the cover of SI!

While the camera I shoot sports with will run at 6fps and I usually have it set that way, I find I'm more anticipatory of the moment than a blaster.  I'm watching hands through the hitting zone knowing the barrel will follow rather than blasting at the jerk of the bat.  I'm waiting for the soccer ball to enter the frame to capture the header than just shooting.  It seems to me low shutter lag is most important to me.  Fire the damn shutter when I press the button.  I just find that at the shutter speeds I normally shoot and at 6fps, there is very little likelihood that a random frame will capture the moment for me.  Given I capture the ball compressed on the bat of a hitter, the ball has left the frame by the time the 2nd frame fires.  With wildlife, I would suspect knowing the wildlife. Having observed it over time and how it reacts in different conditions under different stimuli would be most effective coupled with a large dose of patience and anticipation rather than expecting a high speed sequence to capture the moment. 

Just my thoughts.  I think skill is much more determinant of getting consistently good results.  Of course, a highly skilled photographer with a high speed camera is the optimum, but think the photographer is much more dominant in the equation.

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Erik Kaffehr
 

kitalight

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Re: Action's Magic Moment, Frame Rate, Shutter Lag and Skill!
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2014, 08:28:20 pm »

But with Dslr shutter lag that is greater than those of film cameras without AF or AE, getting the perfect moment of impact is really unpredictable....as the fortuitous/serendipitous shot above.

...much less likely is this....if you know cricket, you know that the ball is bounced before the batter...and I squeezed the shutter AT THE BOUNCE...

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dwswager

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Re: Action's Magic Moment, Frame Rate, Shutter Lag and Skill!
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2014, 01:14:38 pm »

This image falls into the 'predictable' action category.  Once you understand the game, and your equipment, it should become relatively routine to execute this image.  I don't know or shoot cricket, but I do baseball and softball and the classic image of the ball compressed on the bat with the bat flexed at the handle (I shoot non professional sports so they are all aluminum or composite bats) is what you're usually after.  With a single frame, I can get the ball within inches of the bat on either side of the 'hit' and regularly get the ball on the bat by watching the batters hands.  A faster frame rate, unless it is just blazing doesn't help in this situation because the ball travels too quickly to assume you will get the magic moment in a random frame.  It does make it less stressful as you will likely get a usable image.  And I'm usually shooting at 1/500th-1/800th because the D300 I was shooting had bad high ISO performance.  Took me awhile to let the ISO rise now that I shoot the D7100 with better ISO performance.  I have also not had the opportunity to exercise the D810 in 5fps (FX)/6fps (DX) in sports yet.  Might actually be willing to shoot at ISO 800-1600.  Whoo Hoo!


But with Dslr shutter lag that is greater than those of film cameras without AF or AE, getting the perfect moment of impact is really unpredictable....as the fortuitous/serendipitous shot above.

...much less likely is this....if you know cricket, you know that the ball is bounced before the batter...and I squeezed the shutter AT THE BOUNCE...


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Fine_Art

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Re: Action's Magic Moment, Frame Rate, Shutter Lag and Skill!
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2014, 08:00:27 pm »

But with Dslr shutter lag that is greater than those of film cameras without AF or AE, getting the perfect moment of impact is really unpredictable....as the fortuitous/serendipitous shot above.

...much less likely is this....if you know cricket, you know that the ball is bounced before the batter...and I squeezed the shutter AT THE BOUNCE...



When you see the bounce is dependent on your sports type background. The speed of processing through your nervous system changes a lot with training. For example, I did years of Rugby, soccer, and martial arts when I was young. Last Christmas I went with my parents to see the Hobbit movie in the theatre. There is a scene where a barrel bounces at you in 3D IIRC. I noticed my parents jump what seemed like 2 seconds later. It was quite shocking in that it made me worry for their safety in traffic, walking or driving. So just because you clicked as fast as you could respond does not mean it was at the time of the bounce, actually the evidence shows a delay.

The people that are very good at action photography probably have years of reaction training. You can actually react before you see. There is a neural shortcut (through the thalamus I believe) that links the senses to the motor pathways without going through the normal route. It is not as accurate, it can misfire to perceived sensory data, that gets dealt with as threats.
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allegretto

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Re: Action's Magic Moment, Frame Rate, Shutter Lag and Skill!
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2014, 11:33:42 pm »



The people that are very good at action photography probably have years of reaction training. You can actually react before you see. There is a neural shortcut (through the thalamus I believe) that links the senses to the motor pathways without going through the normal route. It is not as accurate, it can misfire to perceived sensory data, that gets dealt with as threats.

Don't want to get too deep into Neuroanatomy here. It's very complex (as Erik has said) But ALL major motor pathways originate above the Thalamus and the senses meet th major motors at the Cortico-thalamic junction.This is not true for the cranial nerves however, but that's another subject that is far too large to discuss here and not relevant anyway. In truth, there are also many pathways that act upon and modulate the pure motor signals from above. It's one of what I like to think of as a Superhighway (or Autobahn) of the Brain.

Not sure which path you're referring to however. We have yet to map them all anyway.

But to get back to the whole anticipatory aspect. In my case, I just watch and learn. Sometimes it's very easy, sometimes it's not so easy. But in general it's quite "timbale" in many cases, which is what at least for myself makes the most sense. I mean that if you think about any anticipatory photography it's all about watching something you are familiar with and then bending the timing to fit the specific act...but for others, just as in everything else there are different ways of learning in all likelihood
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Fine_Art

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Re: Action's Magic Moment, Frame Rate, Shutter Lag and Skill!
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2014, 01:39:26 am »

I cannot describe it in a scientific way, all I know is it is subconscious. There is no clinical decision, there is reaction. You also need lots of repetition to develop it. Often females are far more perceptive somehow, they generally pick it up faster. I think you need to feel a sense of connection with the subject. Females are more socialized to connect with others, so that may have some bearing. As an example, when you miss it you can suddenly find the opponent is behind you when you were just looking at him beyond arm's reach in front. When you are on you can feel like time has dilated for you. You sense the other person feels confused or slow.

A Japanese martial art that deals a lot with this moment is called Iai. Maybe Bernard has photos of it.
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