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Author Topic: How to sharpen in a 'complex' workflow?  (Read 3568 times)

Hening Bettermann

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How to sharpen in a 'complex' workflow?
« on: November 12, 2014, 06:15:52 pm »

I am re-considering my workflow. Reading up on sharpening, I stumble over this passage by Bart van der Wolf in an old thread:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=54798.msg447163#msg447163

> What few people seem to understand is that the upsampling itself can be mathematically characterized by a Point Spread Function (PSF). That fact can be exploited by using deconvolution sharpening after upsampling.I t can even be taken as far as skipping the capture sharpening, thus avoiding any risk of artifacts and enlarging those, and combining the capture sharpening with the output sharpening with a (somewhat timeconsuming) restoration of detail, called deconvolution at the native print resolution.

This rises some questions to me.

a-   It seems that the advice presupposes that the one sharpening is = the print sharpening, and that one prints oneself.
Would it also be advisable to delay the *screen* sharpening to the last step before sending the files to print, leaving the print sharpening to the print service?
I could in principle try to do that, sharpening in Qimage, then send the files to the service, asking him not to sharpen. I have tried that, but his result was better than mine. That was after prior capture sharpening (deconvolution in Raw Developer, now Iridient).

b-   The 'complex' workflow means it implies both exposure stacking and focus stacking. In this situation, it may seem that delaying the deconvolution will be in conflict with another advice, also from your pen (if memory serves me), namely to deconvolve as early in the pipeline as possible. This seems to make sense. Otherwise, unsharp stuff is fed to the stacking software.

So I see a choice of 3 workflows:
1-   One sharpening in Qimage, trying to nail the print sharpening at once.
2-   One *screen* sharpening at final print resolution after upsizing and re-sampling, still leaving the *print* sharpening to the service
3-   Capture sharpening in the beginning, using upsizing-sharpening-downsizing. Then sending the files to print, enlarged but not resampled, leaving this and the final=print sharpening to the service.
 
By 'sharpening', I always mean deconvolution. Typical image content is high contrast and lots of fine detail (landscape). Print size is 70x100 cm.

What do you think?

Kind regards - Hening

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: How to sharpen in a 'complex' workflow?
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2014, 06:23:59 am »

I am re-considering my workflow. Reading up on sharpening, I stumble over this passage by Bart van der Wolf in an old thread:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=54798.msg447163#msg447163

> What few people seem to understand is that the upsampling itself can be mathematically characterized by a Point Spread Function (PSF). That fact can be exploited by using deconvolution sharpening after upsampling. It can even be taken as far as skipping the capture sharpening, thus avoiding any risk of artifacts and enlarging those, and combining the capture sharpening with the output sharpening with a (somewhat timeconsuming) restoration of detail, called deconvolution at the native print resolution.

Hi Hening,

Sharpening has several aspects to it that are related to the stage of the wokflow one is at, and it can become quite involved (Jeff Schewe even co-authored an entire book on the subject), but it is the final result that counts. If we can avoid creating artifacts early on in the workflow, then there is no problem with applying Capture sharpening then. When we create output, we will need to address the relevant sharpening for that stage at that time. The matter that I raised is, that it may be possible to combine the two sharpening steps into one, which would have the benefit of not enlarging early artifact creation with the increase of output size.

I still like the concept of Capture / Creative / Output sharpening, because these three stages allow to focus on the relevant issues for that specific stage of the workflow. That also has to do with the limitations of the tools we use. For instance, if we do not have proper output sharpening tools, we need to do more earlier in the workflow so we can do less later. Again I would like to mention that Creative sharpening is more about local contrast enhancement than real sharpening, but it's easy to refer to them as three 'sharpening' steps, also because contrast affect the perceived sharpness (even if it is only due to contrast and not intrinsic sharpness).

Quote
This rises some questions to me.

a-   It seems that the advice presupposes that the one sharpening is = the print sharpening, and that one prints oneself.
Would it also be advisable to delay the *screen* sharpening to the last step before sending the files to print, leaving the print sharpening to the print service?
I could in principle try to do that, sharpening in Qimage, then send the files to the service, asking him not to sharpen. I have tried that, but his result was better than mine. That was after prior capture sharpening (deconvolution in Raw Developer, now Iridient).

The issue is that many of the tools we use offer little guidance as to their optimal settings. That leaves us with running tests and visual inspection of the final results, and going back to the drawing board for another attempt. That's why I advocate a more analytical approach, to take the guess-work out of it, for a large part anyway. And since Capture sharpening is in general well suited for an analytical solution (unfortunately not offered in most Raw conversion and Capture sharpening tools), it's a good candidate. One element of Output sharpening, the "Resampling blur", also allows an analytical solution.

Mathematically those two could be combined, although things may get complicated if the Creative 'sharpening' in between has significant effects on the underlying Capture blur. Therefore, the simplest thing is to separate the three stages, but it also triples the effort. It does offer the most control, especially if we use good tools.

Qimage has an excellent Deep Focus Sharpening (DFS) capability for tackling the output sharpening, eventhough it is not Decovolution based. It therefore builds on the quality of prior sharpening steps. Deconvolution Capture sharpening is therefore almost a requirement, but without the creation of artifacts.

Quote
b-   The 'complex' workflow means it implies both exposure stacking and focus stacking. In this situation, it may seem that delaying the deconvolution will be in conflict with another advice, also from your pen (if memory serves me), namely to deconvolve as early in the pipeline as possible. This seems to make sense. Otherwise, unsharp stuff is fed to the stacking software.

The more complex a workflow gets, the more we can benefit from control over each step. Focus Stacking is special, because it requires very accurate management of the individual slice's DOF. When we have focus intervals with OOF zones between them, then Capture sharpening will not do much more than point out the flaws in our technique. Sharpening the stacked result, may give better results (if the stacking operation does a good job on the less sharp slices). So that's a bit of a Catch 22, it may also depend on the subject matter what will work best. Exposure stacking/fusion should not affect our sharpening approach much, since it's more about improving the signal to noise ratio which allows us more Creative 'sharpening' wiggle room (AKA tonemapping and local contrast adjustments).

Quote
So I see a choice of 3 workflows:
1-   One sharpening in Qimage, trying to nail the print sharpening at once.
2-   One *screen* sharpening at final print resolution after upsizing and re-sampling, still leaving the *print* sharpening to the service
3-   Capture sharpening in the beginning, using upsizing-sharpening-downsizing. Then sending the files to print, enlarged but not resampled, leaving this and the final=print sharpening to the service.
 
By 'sharpening', I always mean deconvolution. Typical image content is high contrast and lots of fine detail (landscape). Print size is 70x100 cm.

That is all reasonable, depending on how well the different stages are executed. It seems a bit strange to me that the print service can do a better job of output sharpening, unless one does not have adequate feedback from them what the printing process requires. One needs to know the output specifications (PPI) and medium requirements (e.g. paper diffusion combined with the output process, e.g. inkjet or laser C-print). When the service treats images individually and they know what they are doing, it could be left to their expertise (which should not be taken for granted in general because they rarely have the time to tweak).

With a multi-stage sharpening workflow, nothing beats proper deconvolution Capture sharpening. However, to do it proper requires good tools. Most tools require tuning, more tuning than necessary if only the tools were implemented better. The current brain-dead approach of leaving it to visual judgement (at which most people are not very good) while the process could be guided by image analysis in the background still amazes me (from a technological point of view, I understand it from an investment/profit point of view).

Creative 'sharpening', e.g. with Topaz Clarity for local contrast and Topaz Detail for selective structural detail enhancement, is fully separate from the other less creative but more technical de-blur adjustments.

So it basically boils down to whether to do one's own output sharpening, which is the best practice in most cases, or leave it to a proven high quality treatment by a trusted service.

Cheers,
Bart
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Hening Bettermann

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Re: How to sharpen in a 'complex' workflow?
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2014, 10:11:31 am »

Hi Bart,

thank you very much for your detailed reply. It makes it easier for me to choose. My conclusion is that I will mainly attempt the following:

Capture sharpening AFTER focus stacking, using Photozoom Pro to upsample 3-400%, then FocusMagic to deconvolve, using the method you have adviced (increasing stepwise, and stepping back when the result looks oversharpened). Then downsampling according to your recommendation, ImageMagick Lanczos with AA Filter. Then tonal editing. Then enlarging and upsampling to print size, again using Photozoom Pro, leaving the output sharpening to the print service.

Thanks again! - Hening.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: How to sharpen in a 'complex' workflow?
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2014, 11:16:33 am »

Hi Bart,

thank you very much for your detailed reply. It makes it easier for me to choose. My conclusion is that I will mainly attempt the following:

Capture sharpening AFTER focus stacking, using Photozoom Pro to upsample 3-400%, then FocusMagic to deconvolve, using the method you have adviced (increasing stepwise, and stepping back when the result looks oversharpened). Then downsampling according to your recommendation, ImageMagick Lanczos with AA Filter.

Hi Hening,

Be careful when you use PhotoZoom to upsample, because that will add actual detail. When you then subsequently deconvolve, that may quickly be too much because it is already sharp (thanks to PhotoZoom) to begin with. Do note, that the upsample-deconvolve-downsample roundtrip is just a trick to allow very accurate (sub-pixel) deconvolution with e.g. FocusMagic, it is not a must and could be replaced with a single deconvolution (as long as you avoid oversharpening of the Capture result) at the original size.

Quote
Then tonal editing. Then enlarging and upsampling to print size, again using Photozoom Pro, leaving the output sharpening to the print service.

Also, when you ultimately need to enlarge to match the output modality PPI, you may want to skip the initial downsampling, unless you want to create a master-file that's ready for other output resampling operations (e.g. different sizes).

Cheers,
Bart
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Hening Bettermann

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Re: How to sharpen in a 'complex' workflow?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2014, 07:42:52 pm »

Hi Bart,

> Be careful when you use PhotoZoom to upsample, because that will add actual detail. When you then subsequently deconvolve, that may quickly be too much because it is already sharp (thanks to PhotoZoom) to begin with. Do note, that the upsample-deconvolve-downsample roundtrip is just a trick to allow very accurate (sub-pixel) deconvolution with e.g. FocusMagic, it is not a must and could be replaced with a single deconvolution (as long as you avoid oversharpening of the Capture result) at the original size.

Then what would you recommed for upsizing for the round trip? If it is an improvement of the sharpening, I see no reason not to use it.

> Also, when you ultimately need to enlarge to match the output modality PPI, you may want to skip the initial downsampling,

Yes I have also thought of saving the extra step. I would then have to downsize + resample not from the 300 to 100 %, but to the print size. But that would give HUGE files for the remainder of the procedure. A 16 bit TIF from the a7r, sized to 67x100 cm and sampled to 360 ppi, would be inflated from 206 to 767 MB - before any layers are added...

> unless you want to create a master-file that's ready for other output resampling operations (e.g. different sizes).

Yes that was exactly my idea. -
If not for the round trip, I assume you would still recommend Photozoom Pro for the final upsize?

A new thought: If the capture sharpening is to be delayed til after the focus stacking, it might as well be delayed til after the editing in PhotoLine, which will be the tone curve incl masking if needed - ? That is it would be done as the last step before sending to print. -? So the sequence would be: complete editing - upsizing to 300% and 360 dpi - sharpening - downsizing to print size (Which is about 200 %) - end. Then the sharpened 300% file could be saved as the master file, from which other downsizes could be made. This would save one step as well as the need to drag huge files through a part of the editing. ??

And yet another thought: Since 200% is not THAT far from 300, one might settle with this as the sharpening size? I will have to try how well I can judge the sharpening result in Focus Magic at this size.

But not tonight...
edit: ooops - the visibility on screen has nothing to do with it - the screen display size can be adjusted independently.

Thanks again! - Hening
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 07:58:13 pm by Hening Bettermann »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: How to sharpen in a 'complex' workflow?
« Reply #5 on: November 14, 2014, 04:01:02 am »

> Be careful when you use PhotoZoom to upsample, because that will add actual detail. When you then subsequently deconvolve, that may quickly be too much because it is already sharp (thanks to PhotoZoom) to begin with. Do note, that the upsample-deconvolve-downsample roundtrip is just a trick to allow very accurate (sub-pixel) deconvolution with e.g. FocusMagic, it is not a must and could be replaced with a single deconvolution (as long as you avoid oversharpening of the Capture result) at the original size.

Then what would you recommed for upsizing for the round trip? If it is an improvement of the sharpening, I see no reason not to use it.

First, ask yourself if you need to do the round trip. If you can do the Capture sharpening at the original size, then do it there. If it doesn't allow to achieve a good job, you could attempt the round-trip but be careful and pull in the reins of PhotoZoom a bit (avoid creating overly sharp edges) before you are going to deconvolve. Alternatively, you could use an optimized ImageMagick based resampling round-trip, e.g. based on the script that was developed here.

Quote
> Also, when you ultimately need to enlarge to match the output modality PPI, you may want to skip the initial downsampling,

Yes I have also thought of saving the extra step. I would then have to downsize + resample not from the 300 to 100 %, but to the print size. But that would give HUGE files for the remainder of the procedure. A 16 bit TIF from the a7r, sized to 67x100 cm and sampled to 360 ppi, would be inflated from 206 to 767 MB - before any layers are added...

Yes, TANSTAAFL.

Quote
> unless you want to create a master-file that's ready for other output resampling operations (e.g. different sizes).

Yes that was exactly my idea. -
If not for the round trip, I assume you would still recommend Photozoom Pro for the final upsize?

Yes, PhotoZoom is one of the few applications that really adds resolution when upsampling by enhancing edge detail so that the edges grow less in size than the image is magnified.

Quote
A new thought: If the capture sharpening is to be delayed til after the focus stacking, it might as well be delayed til after the editing in PhotoLine, which will be the tone curve incl masking if needed - ? That is it would be done as the last step before sending to print. -? So the sequence would be: complete editing - upsizing to 300% and 360 dpi - sharpening - downsizing to print size (Which is about 200 %) - end. Then the sharpened 300% file could be saved as the master file, from which other downsizes could be made. This would save one step as well as the need to drag huge files through a part of the editing. ??

That is a possibility. However, it is theoretically best to Capture sharpen before making tonal adjustments, because one (in principle) wants to recreate/restore the original input signal (even in linear gamma). That doesn't mean that it wouldn't work on gamma adjusted and tonemapped image data, but it will have a different effect on shadows versus highlights. It's not clear if e.g. FocusMagic or Topaz Infocus adjust the gamma dynamically, although I presume they do the right thing.

Also, when you do significant Creative 'sharpening' and Output sharpening (more than just to compensate for resampling), e.g. with Topaz Detail, then that can introduce sharper detail which cannot be deconvolved much before it starts producing artifacts. If such tools are used, then I prefer to do proper Capture sharpening early on instead of postponing it until the final phases.

Quote
And yet another thought: Since 200% is not THAT far from 300, one might settle with this as the sharpening size? I will have to try how well I can judge the sharpening result in Focus Magic at this size.

There is nothing magical about 300% compared to 200%, other than that it gives a few more pixels (in a 3x3 grid instead of a 2x2 grid) to smoothly deconvolve the original pixel data, allowing marginally more precision in the placement of gradients. The difference when downsampling again will be very (sub-pixel) small, so it is probably more useful for assisting with the 'zoomed in' deconvolution tweaking.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: November 14, 2014, 04:08:25 am by BartvanderWolf »
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Hening Bettermann

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Re: How to sharpen in a 'complex' workflow?
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2014, 10:56:20 am »

> If you can do the Capture sharpening at the original size, then do it there. If it doesn't allow to achieve a good job, you could attempt the round-trip

So that is "back to Start": Capture deconvolution sharpening first in the pipeline. I have never seen any flaws in the results of Raw Developers Richardson-Lucy deconvolution. So my interest in the round trip was of more theoretical/principal nature: Almost everything looks good until you have compared it to something better...

>Alternatively, you could use an optimized ImageMagick based resampling round-trip, e.g. based on the script that was developed here.

Yes I have of course followed that thread, with an interest that is inversely proportional to my understanding of the math, which is zero. The thread has grown rather lengthy, so it is difficult for me to sum up what may have changed, but as I recall it, the script presumes sRGB, and that is of course not what I use for the print or the master file.

So concluding from your post, what I will try out first is: Developing in RawTherapee (in exchange for Iridient, because of the zipper artifacts that you have discovered; Brian - I am sorry...). Output in linear space - deconvolution with FocusMagic - stacking and (tonal) editing - saving a master file from this state - upsizing with PhotozoomPro - leaving the print *sharpening* to the service.

Complexity has been resolved to a linear, straightforward procedure...

Thank you so much! and good light - Hening

Manoli

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Re: How to sharpen in a 'complex' workflow?
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2014, 11:55:17 am »

Hi Bart,

A quick question. Hening's using RawTherapee. What is your suggestion for using CaptureOne V8? Convert from RAW to 16-bit TIFF, then to FocusMagic or Topaz InFocus  with (a) little , or (b) no C1 sharpening ?

Best,
Manoli

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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: How to sharpen in a 'complex' workflow?
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2014, 12:05:52 pm »

>Alternatively, you could use an optimized ImageMagick based resampling round-trip, e.g. based on the script that was developed here.

Yes I have of course followed that thread, with an interest that is inversely proportional to my understanding of the math, which is zero. The thread has grown rather lengthy, so it is difficult for me to sum up what may have changed, but as I recall it, the script presumes sRGB, and that is of course not what I use for the print or the master file.

Not exactly, the sRGB to linear and back to sRGB round trip doesn't materially change the input file, it just changes the gamma space to something more linear for resampling (to preserve color blending accuracy). There will be less darkening/dulling of original colors.

Quote
So concluding from your post, what I will try out first is: Developing in RawTherapee (in exchange for Iridient, because of the zipper artifacts that you have discovered; Brian - I am sorry...). Output in linear space - deconvolution with FocusMagic - stacking and (tonal) editing - saving a master file from this state - upsizing with PhotozoomPro - leaving the print *sharpening* to the service.

Sounds like a good plan ...

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Complexity has been resolved to a linear, straightforward procedure...

Nothing wrong with simplifying, when quality doesn't suffer.

Cheers,
Bart
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: How to sharpen in a 'complex' workflow?
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2014, 12:26:55 pm »

A quick question. Hening's using RawTherapee. What is your suggestion for using CaptureOne V8? Convert from RAW to 16-bit TIFF, then to FocusMagic or Topaz InFocus  with (a) little , or (b) no C1 sharpening ?

Hi,

I always turn off sharpening in the C1 export recipe, and proceed with tonal adjustments and sharpening in Photoshop. Raw conversion quality in C1 is great. I only use the C1 sharpening for judging sharpness while in C1 and for setting the other controls. I output 16-b/ch TIFFs for that purpose, and use FocusMagic or (Topaz Infocus) on a blend-if layer to avoid clipping.

Topaz Clarity and Detail are my main tonality and Creative 'sharpening' tools.

Upsampled output (with Photozoom plugin) may get a bit of FocusMagic deconvolution Output sharpening as a finishing touch, maybe on a masked duplicate layer.

Cheers,
Bart
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