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Author Topic: Phase One A-Series  (Read 18031 times)

Steve Hendrix

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2014, 09:51:31 pm »

Phase One seems to be incapable of producing a new MF body. The new "A" is nothing more than overpriced Alpa components. I've been told by my local Phase distributor that they (Phase One) get most of their revenue by licensing their technology and patents to other technology manufacturers. Very little of their profits (if any) come from their sales of digital backs. I don't know if this is true, I have no way of verifying it, but Phase One's inability to produce a camera body on par with their digital backs leads me to suspect that they are in no hurry to replace their awful MF Mamiya bodies.


I'm gonna disagree and say that I believe they are capable.  ;)

The pricing of the Alpa components in the A Series Package is no different than the pricing that these components normally cost, so I have to disagree also with your statement they are "overpriced".

Phase One has a significant amount of technological prowess, and I am sure some of it gets licensed to various vertical markets. Whether this forms the majority of their revenues I am skeptical of, but in any case, I doubt highly that their digital backs do not produce a profit, and aren't designed as an important, perhaps even the most important element in the profitability of the company.

It's true, the new body has been anticipated for at least several years now, but I do believe the time is coming. If it is a substantial improvement, it will be worth the wait for many.


Steve Hendrix
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2014, 01:22:22 am »

Hi,

Regarding if Phase One is capable of designing a camera or not it is something that we will see, when (or if) the new camera will be released.

Personally, I would imagine that Phase One is designing a mirrorless camera. Our friend BC indicates that is there the future is. But Phase One would not release such a camera until we have a new generation of EVFs available and full size CMOS sensors are around. That is of course just speculation.

I very much doubt that Phase One would make it earnings from intellectual property. They actually base their technology on sensors developed by Kodak, DALSA and Sony. Now all the modern backs with the exception of the IQ-250 use technology from DALSA (which once used to be Philips), the main reason that Phase switched from Kodak to DALSA may have been that DALSA allowed Phase One to codevelop sensors, resulting in Sensor+ and also the new IQ-260 sensor with it's long exposure capability.

I would say that A-series makes some sense, if nothing else it got Doug into marketing Alpa, AFAIK DT used to be an Arca dealer. Basically, matching and adjusting camera and back makes some sense. Pentax mentions it as one of the reasons for having an integrated camera and Hasselblad mainly sells it's cameras as body/back combination.

That said, I would guess that tolerances may be overrated. The CoC introduced by say 42 micron misalignment would be 7.5 microns  at f/5.6 enough to reduce sharpness a bit on a 5.2 micron sensor with the best lenses, but just stopping down to f/8 would reduce that CoC to 5.2 microns.

The 42 microns are assuming 30 micron tolerances on camera (Hasselblad V-series specifications) and 12 microns on sensor (Phase One specfications AFAIK), in all probability the tolerances would not add up.

Thermal expansion coefficients for both magnesium and aluminium are in the range of 22-25 microns/celsius meter. So if we assume a body 5 cm long it will change length about 1 micron per degree. So operating between say 0 and 40 degrees would cause a shift of around 44-50 microns. (Well adjusting at 20C it would give +/- 23 microns, predictably).

Best regards
Erik



I'm gonna disagree and say that I believe they are capable.  ;)

The pricing of the Alpa components in the A Series Package is no different than the pricing that these components normally cost, so I have to disagree also with your statement they are "overpriced".

Phase One has a significant amount of technological prowess, and I am sure some of it gets licensed to various vertical markets. Whether this forms the majority of their revenues I am skeptical of, but in any case, I doubt highly that their digital backs do not produce a profit, and aren't designed as an important, perhaps even the most important element in the profitability of the company.

It's true, the new body has been anticipated for at least several years now, but I do believe the time is coming. If it is a substantial improvement, it will be worth the wait for many.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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joezl

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #42 on: November 18, 2014, 12:41:29 pm »

Steve, you're correct, poor choice of words on my part. I should have said "expensive" Alpa parts rather than "overpriced". I didn't mean to imply that Phase One was charging more for the Alpa components. Alpa produces excellent products. I am disappointed that the "new" A camera isn't new at all, not that I could justify purchasing the hypothetical new camera right now anyway.
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Ken R

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #43 on: November 18, 2014, 01:28:39 pm »

I think PhaseOne is in a bind regarding the new SLR Camera Body. Every month that goes by the expectation increases so it is HIGHLY probable that once it is released it will disappoint. It would need to be so good, given how long it has taken to come to light, that it most likely won't meet the expectation of at least most of us forum folk.

Also, in the meantime, other camera manufacturers are improving their cameras as well. So the camera landscape will be different once it is released. (A higher resolution Nikon and or Canon might be likely, also the 645z is already out but expect more lenses and maybe an improved 645z II in a few years).

Of course all this has nothing to do with how good the new PhaseOne body will be. It might be great but as time goes by it would need to be better and better or else it might be a tough sell to new customers although existing ones will most likely love it.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 01:34:22 pm by Ken R »
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JV

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #44 on: November 18, 2014, 09:05:38 pm »

I don't believe a new body is a huge priority for Phase One.

Phase One/Leaf already has (most of) the tech cam users and (most of) the H1/H2/H4X/H5X/Contax 645/Hy6/Mamiya shooters.

Perhaps with a better body it could convince some (integrated) Hasselblad/Leica/Pentax shooters but probably not that many either.

To convince DSLR users the price difference is too significant.

All in all a huge investment for probably not that much additional revenue.
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jsiva

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #45 on: November 18, 2014, 11:19:41 pm »

I don't believe a new body is a huge priority for Phase One.

Phase One/Leaf already has (most of) the tech cam users and (most of) the H1/H2/H4X/H5X/Contax 645/Hy6/Mamiya shooters.

Perhaps with a better body it could convince some (integrated) Hasselblad/Leica/Pentax shooters but probably not that many either.

To convince DSLR users the price difference is too significant.

All in all a huge investment for probably not that much additional revenue.

Perhaps true on backs, but lots of money left on the table on SLR lenses.  i for one, use a tech cam with an IQ back and use a bunch of D800/E's for SLR needs. I would think I'm not alone here.  I would certainly prefer a single solution with my IQ180 for both cases, i.e., tech cam and a nice SLR body with the current SK lenses.  Also, I don't think it is a low priority for them, I just think that sat around long enough that whatever they release will need to be quite compelling.  Whatever it is, I'm sure I'll still want more :)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2014, 11:22:52 pm by jsiva »
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jsiva

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #46 on: November 18, 2014, 11:26:12 pm »

My only fear regarding the new body is that they come out with something that is only compatible with CMOS backs -- EVF, mirrorless, LV etc.  This would not be new to Phase as they did this for LS lens compatibility going from the AFDIII to the DF.  A lot of people would not be pleased, but this would explain why it has take ages for this to happen.
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2014, 09:49:24 am »

I don't believe a new body is a huge priority for Phase One.

Phase One/Leaf already has (most of) the tech cam users and (most of) the H1/H2/H4X/H5X/Contax 645/Hy6/Mamiya shooters.

Perhaps with a better body it could convince some (integrated) Hasselblad/Leica/Pentax shooters but probably not that many either.

To convince DSLR users the price difference is too significant.

All in all a huge investment for probably not that much additional revenue.


I believe the new body is a really important component for Phase One in the growth of their platform. While tech camera purchases are substantial, the majority of Phase One or Leaf purchasers don't use them, instead exclusively relying on a medium format platform of some sort - Mamiya 645/Hasselblad H/Contax/Hasselblad V...

Regardless of the revenue increase it would provide, it is an essential element in maintaining existing clients as well as luring future ones. Phase One faces competition like all companies do, and competitors don't stand still.

I believe the additional time it is taking Phase One is an indication that they do take it very seriously, and that the new camera is not just another warmed up version of the previous camera. I don't see it as vapor-ware, I (perhaps hopefully) see it as taking the time to get it right. I agree with Ken that the extended time will potentially allow the bar to be raised from competitive products and that the expectation level for a product that has been anticipated for so long sets up a scenario that is bound to disappoint some. From Phase One's standpoint, I see nothing to do but continue to work on delivering the best possible camera that they can - if it's a successful product with a clear advantage over the current offering, many users and potential users will be pleased, regardless of the expectation.


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Paul2660

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #48 on: November 19, 2014, 10:50:31 am »

What is interesting to me is all the talk of mirrorless and EVF.

I can't see that happening without all new lenses as the current ones are designed around a mirror box.  As I see it a tech lens would work better than the Phase One 645 glass.    

Maybe they will make an adapter that somehow couples and allows for current glass to work if they do come out with the body in a mirrorless design.

What I would love to see is a IQ with a tilt LCD.  I don't think the new body will have any LCD as in the past the LCD of the back has been used. Working in the field and trying to get low to the ground or just working in certain setups many times I have wished for a screen the is movable.   

If Sony goes ahead with the rumored 50MP range finder MF camera then possibly some of the design will carry over.

Sadly I am sure when the new body is ready it will come with a hefty cost. Just as the DF+ does now at 5k (rounding up the last 5 dollars)

Paul
« Last Edit: November 19, 2014, 11:09:57 am by Paul2660 »
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synn

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #49 on: November 19, 2014, 07:05:04 pm »

Paul,

As I mentioned in a previous post, an interchangeable viewfinder system will cater to both CCD and CMOS users.

Attach the OVF with a prism inside and the mirror stays put. Attach an Evf and the mirror swings away, allowing live view and contrast detect AF off the sensor.

This would be the ideal solution that will support all customers and I hope it will be the case.
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lamestllama

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #50 on: December 01, 2014, 04:05:19 am »

If they can't bring themselves to support the Hy6 and must make a new mirrorless camera it would be great if it supported the Leaf Afi/ Rolleiflex lenses.

I don't see why they want to build camera bodies the money is in making lenses and backs.
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Ken R

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #51 on: December 01, 2014, 05:48:54 am »

I guess Sinar was ahead of it's time:

http://www.matrix.cz/profifoto/PDFS/sinar_m_e.pdf
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #52 on: December 01, 2014, 09:46:06 am »

I guess Sinar was ahead of it's time:

http://www.matrix.cz/profifoto/PDFS/sinar_m_e.pdf


In some ways, yes they were. And it's also an example that a product that brings desirable features to market is no guarantee of the long term survival of that product. During a free day on our Alpa trip, Anthony Festa and I stopped in to Sinar (about a 15 minute train ride from Alpa), and spent some time with Daniela and some of the fascinating products Sinar has produced over the years, including the Sam!, the Sinar Handy, Xcatch, and of course, our friend the AFi/Hy6.


Steve Hendrix
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Paul2660

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #53 on: December 16, 2014, 12:16:45 pm »

What happened to the Phase One A Series?  On the main Phase One site, I cannot find any mention of the A series under cameras, or products.  In fact a site search comes up with nothing.  Did Phase One pull the date back, if so I must have missed this.

Paul
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buckshot

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #54 on: December 16, 2014, 04:47:44 pm »

Perhaps it was just a bad dream...
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eronald

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #55 on: December 16, 2014, 10:17:43 pm »

Perhaps it was just a bad dream...

Out of phase with reality?

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2014, 01:02:36 am »

That fuzzy feeling? Thinking of audio test CDs.

Best regards
Erik

Out of phase with reality?

Edmund
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Paul2660

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #57 on: December 17, 2014, 08:50:30 am »

It's now officially on the Phase One site, and of all places Dpreview has a article with the listed pricing.

Paul
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Ken R

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #58 on: December 17, 2014, 09:17:28 am »

Yes the A-Series are back on the Digital Transition website as well.

They should be marketed as luxury items IMHO. They are perfect for people who do not want or like to do much tinkering with gear and want a simple solution that works right out of the box and is warranted as a unit.

Image quality should be superb and they are VERY light and compact systems compared to even 35mm DSLRs.

I still think there is a bit of redundancy when using an iPhone with the IQ backs since the screen on the IQ backs is so good I really do not see much need to use the iPhone as a viewer.
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eronald

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Re: Phase One A-Series
« Reply #59 on: December 17, 2014, 10:22:17 am »

That fuzzy feeling? Thinking of audio test CDs.

Best regards
Erik



Erik,

 You mean this ?

Edmund
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