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Author Topic: Phase One 645DF or Hasselblad H3DII-39 - body durability - travel photography  (Read 8371 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Thanks!

Good info!

Best regards
Erik

CFH-22, CFH-39
CF-22, CF-22MS, CF-39, CF-39MS
H2D-22, H2D-39, H3D-22, H3D-39

31 mpix models can still be repaired, H3DII models can still be repaired, all H cameras (cameras - not backs) can still be repaired, for the backs for which full service has been discontinued, some limited repairs are still available


Source: http://hasselbladbron.com/index.php?option=com_easyblog&view=entry&id=59&Itemid=128
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Erik Kaffehr
 

wagabundo

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Hi Guys!

thx for all feedbacks, I rather go with P1.

I would be happy to buy DF+, but because budget limits probably DF will be on ma table.. Shutter won't be a problem, I don't shoot too much. Only when I'm on the trip, so I will change the camera sooner than it breaks down.

in short

- rather 0-40C, that below 0C
- strobes (not speedlights)
- long exposure isn't for me, P25 will suit my needs

Paul
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ErikKaffehr

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Hi,

Don't overdo that 0-40C stuff, it is normal specification for home electronics. But it was very clear that Leaf was not willing to repair Anders Torger's kit until he could prove it failed above 0C.

Here is one of the threads on the issue: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=77014.0

And this thread is also worth reading: http://www.ludd.luth.se/~torger/photography/mfdb-guide.html

Best regards
Erik


Hi Guys!

thx for all feedbacks, I rather go with P1.

I would be happy to buy DF+, but because budget limits probably DF will be on ma table.. Shutter won't be a problem, I don't shoot too much. Only when I'm on the trip, so I will change the camera sooner than it breaks down.

in short

- rather 0-40C, that below 0C
- strobes (not speedlights)
- long exposure isn't for me, P25 will suit my needs

Paul
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Paul2660

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Edit:

"Repairs seem to be expensive and frequent. My P45+ works well, this far, but some good posters on these threads have indicated that backs can be quite problematic. To be more specific, one of the posters I trust pretty much had repairs on all backs he had. Send me a PM if you need a reference.

That's absolutely untrue. The median number of service calls (calibration, repair, maintenance) for a back we sell is zero.

The poster you're referring to had several *calibrations* done not several "repairs". He's especially picky (well within his rights with expensive gear!) and had especially bad luck - a bad combo."


I may be the poster referred to as picky, and I actually don't feel I was being too picky (if it was me), considering that the IQ260 came back to me in a condition that rendered it non-useable in any type of normal light, i.e totally blown highlights.  And considering that the back had gone in for a "repair" -- "replacement" of the WiFi top plate, in perfect working order and came back to me in that condition was a bit of a shock.  The greater shock I had was attempting to get Phase One to agree that there was a problem as once they found out I was using a tech camera, they tried to blame the condition on the tech lens, even though I had many thousands of previous frames with same back and lens, and none showed the issue.  I was lucky enough to still have my old DF and showed Phase One that the same problem was occurring with that combination, then they were able to allow a return.  

Back to the OP's question.

The DF and DF+ are well build camera bodies, based on the older Mamiya 645 series.  They are heavy, solid, and all the control surfaces are well laid out.  The main difference between the DF and DF+ is a vastly both more accurate and faster locking AF system. arThe DF+ also ships with the Li-on battery back, which is also much better than the 6 back AA back that the DF takes.  You can purchase the Li-on back for the DF and if you plan on using a DF a lot I would make the purchase.  AA's Alkaline have a linear drain and are not well suited to the DF body.  Li-on AA work much better but are much more expensive.  You still only have 3 AF points and really as the outer 2 are so close to the center, you in effect only have 1.  Both bodies have to have firmware upgrades done with the V grip installed.  If you own a V grip you can do it, if not the the body has to go to a dealer for the upgrade.  Finder on the DF, or DF+ is bright, but I never found it bright enough for very accurate manual focus, especially with wides.  Telephoto lenses are much easier.  There is a magnifier that can be added to the viewfinder that makes detailed focus easier.  If you pick a back with USB3, you can also tether to a Surface Pro or similar device and get excellent focus feedback on the fly and in the field.

Net, the DF is not a DSLR body, no way to compare it, feature function, connectivity etc.  The back and DF really are two separate entities.  This has gotten a bit better with the DF+ and IQ backs, but still it has a long way to go.  


Lenses, you have huge options.  

You can use older Mamiya MF glass, some of which is very good, you can use Mamiya AF lenses or Phase D (Digital) lenses or the Phase One LS lenses (leaf shutter).  Most of the wides are OK, 28mm, 35mm, and 45mm, but other lenses are excellent, 55mm (AF), 75-150,  210 AF, 240AF, 55 LS, 110LS 300mm, to name a few.  Many of these lenses will show up on the used market but new, they are priced in line with Pentax 645z lenses (new design).  

Some of the older Mamiya MF lenses, 35mm, 45mm, 150mm are very reasonable used and have very good optics.  

If possible, I would seek out a dealer and try to demo the DF or DF+ with a few of the lenses, in the focal range you are looking for.  

Paul
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 07:13:53 am by Paul2660 »
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Chris Barrett

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FWIW... I've been shooting Phase Backs for 7 years.  P45+, P65+ & IQ260.  I've never had a single issue and traded in my P65+ with 55,000 exposures on it.

YMMV,
CB

synn

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As usual, certain characters without first hand experience are all over the thread spreading hearsay. Oh well.

I do have a DF+ and I have shot with it in pretty hot and humid conditions (38 degree C, 90% humidity) and also in the occasional drizzle. No issues at all.
Works with 1/500 sync with a pocketwizard easily in the studio. Any higher and you lose power. Profoto Airs will get you faster sync speeds without much power loss.

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ErikKaffehr

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Hi Synn,

As usual certain characters posts totally irrelevant info, 38C is absolutely within temperature specifications, 0-40C.

I presume that you refer to my posting on the problems that Torger had, the information is not hearsay as it is well written down and documented in detail.

To be more specific Anders Torger did have a repair replacing the E-box, cost around 3000€ (if I recall correctly), and he had warranty on that repair. The camera still was not reliable below zero C, but repair was denied as it was outside environmental specs. Once Anders could demonstrate that the problem was present at +1C which is inside environmental specs he got the issue resolved to his satisfaction.

The point is not what works, but what help you get when things fail. And of course the probability it happens. I don't understand what sync speeds have to do camera reliability at low temperatures and customer support.

If you are buying a second hand MFD equipment under budget constraints it is good to be aware of potential pitfalls. It may be that risks can be minimised by having support of a good dealer.

Regarding shooting under drizzle, I have been shooting prolonged under sky fall conditions using a Minolta XE-1 and later Minolta AF 9000-s. I could pour water out of the systems but they survived (most water in the lenses). I was obviously lucky. BTW, rain is essentially distilled water and normally not very corrosive, salt water spray is a much worse problem. My major problem with shooting in bad weather is water on the front lens, not good for the MTF, you know.

I got the impression that Phase stuff is reliable, lots of Phase Ones on those Antartic workshops. The issue Anders Torger discussed was on an older Aptus. My P45+ has worked fine for 15 months, but I was only using it under benign conditions. We had no real winter past year.

Best regards
Erik

As usual, certain characters without first hand experience are all over the thread spreading hearsay. Oh well.

I do have a DF+ and I have shot with it in pretty hot and humid conditions (38 degree C, 90% humidity) and also in the occasional drizzle. No issues at all.
Works with 1/500 sync with a pocketwizard easily in the studio. Any higher and you lose power. Profoto Airs will get you faster sync speeds without much power loss.


« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 02:16:04 am by ErikKaffehr »
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Erik Kaffehr
 

synn

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The very first post talks about sync speeds. I am giving some first hand info.
Also, I fail to see how Torger's Aptus or your Minoltas have anything to do with a query about the DF+.
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ErikKaffehr

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Hi Synn,

First response on this thread was by Doug Peterson with four videos, one showing a Phase back operating at 175C and one showing it working at -79C. If Doug's posting is relevant in the context it is also relevant to discuss how Phase One and it's dealers handle slightly out of environmental specification issues.

The info on sync times is very useful, even if the question was about durability.

It is nice to hear that you camera have survived drizzling rain at 39 centigrade, my expectations may be different.

Best regards
Erik



The very first post talks about sync speeds. I am giving some first hand info.
Also, I fail to see how Torger's Aptus or your Minoltas have anything to do with a query about the DF+.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

eronald

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Everybody here will tell you that the dealer margins are justified for Phase backs, because a good dealer makes a huge difference.
This is true, and Doug and Steve are good dealers.
However a bad dealer also makes a huge difference.

So - if you are going to buy MF, buy the dealer, not the camera. Find a good dealer and get what he has in your budget. Or else get a really cheap second hand camera, after testing it. I believe backs are usually very reliable, your field experience with the camera and lens may vary.

Edmund
« Last Edit: November 12, 2014, 07:40:43 am by eronald »
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Ken R

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I'm one step away from buying 645DF. (I'm newbie in MF).

Could you advice me which body seems to be more durable (lenses as well) ? Phase One 645DF or Hasselblad H3DII-39 ?

I know that both don't have sealings, and it's more common to use them in studio, than outdoor, but I have to choose.

My needs:

- strobes (645z have low flash sync speed, 1/125 sec :/)
- outdoor (travel photography, small dust is common)
- big sensor (645Z have only 44x33)

thx
Paul


You don't choose between a DF and a H3DII-39 because of durability. You choose the one that you want to work with the best. Get a hold of one of each and feel them out.
Don't forget that with the DF you can choose from a wide range of lenses, some of which are VERY affordable (Mamiya 645) and you can mount a VERY wide range of Digital backs. With the H3DII-39 you are committed to that particular back.
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eronald

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With the H3DII-39 you are committed to that particular back.

At the price H3D39s are now trading on ebay, I don't think it's much of a "commitment". I see one with $2700 up on bids ...

Edmund

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ErikKaffehr

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Hi,

As far as I recall, they have replaced the batteries before shooting. I don't think the oven was a microwave oven, as they don't have a thermostat.

The issue is more that I feel there is a disparity between Phase marketing and environmental specifications. They say the back works at -79 -- 175 centigrade but they warranty it at 0 -- 40 centigrade.

At best, Phase One may have high quality construction, but why don't they update environmental specs to something reasonable like:

Environmental specifications: Operating temperature -35 to 65 centigrade, please note that noise levels may increase above 25 centigrade.

Fake marketing discredits a company, don't talk about 16 bit advantage and focus on what the product may deliver.

Best regards
Erik

This is ridiculous. Phase makes great backs and indeed they are quite sturdy. They don't need this fraudulent videos. They should be ashamed of them.

The back in the microwave does not operate at 175C, its internals are nowhere near 175C. Microwave ovens do not heat the inside of metal enclosures. No back operates at 175C for the simple reason that no battery operates at 175C (at least not the kind used in cameras). Same goes for -79C.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

bcooter

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Or else get a really cheap second hand camera, after testing it. I believe backs are usually very reliable, your field experience with the camera and lens may vary.

Edmund

Yes.  This is where edmund and I agree.

Test a 30mpx digital back against a 40 mpx one and you'll see no real world difference, other than that debit on your bank statement.

Comparing my Leica S2 next to my ancient p30+ and Contax, I'd bet dollars to donuts the Contax shoots a slightly better file, same iso.

Also phase backs just don't wear out.  Yea anything can have problems but it's rare, though if your buying straight without a trade in look at the used prices of previous
generation backs.

Their value drops faster than the I-tune sales of a Boy Band.

IMO

BC

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wagabundo

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thx to all of you guys! Choice of mine is 645DF!
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