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Author Topic: Phase One 645DF or Hasselblad H3DII-39 - body durability - travel photography  (Read 8372 times)

wagabundo

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I'm one step away from buying 645DF. (I'm newbie in MF).

Could you advice me which body seems to be more durable (lenses as well) ? Phase One 645DF or Hasselblad H3DII-39 ?

I know that both don't have sealings, and it's more common to use them in studio, than outdoor, but I have to choose.

My needs:

- strobes (645z have low flash sync speed, 1/125 sec :/)
- outdoor (travel photography, small dust is common)
- big sensor (645Z have only 44x33)

thx
Paul
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Doug Peterson

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I'm one step away from buying 645DF. (I'm newbie in MF).

Could you advice me which body seems to be more durable (lenses as well) ? Phase One 645DF or Hasselblad H3DII-39 ?

I know that both don't have sealings, and it's more common to use them in studio, than outdoor, but I have to choose.

My needs:

- strobes (645z have low flash sync speed, 1/125 sec :/)
- outdoor (travel photography, small dust is common)
- big sensor (645Z have only 44x33)

thx
Paul


DF or DF+?

Notably the flash sync for LS lenses on a DF+ is 1/1600th, and the back (the most expensive part) is made to handle crazy abuse:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytrsdSR_67Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOemv9F_Ahw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J4BErvU-kg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0SljqdzCNQ

Also the DF and DF+ are still "current" meaning service, support, and repairs are provided without limitation.

Probably the least expensive way into a DF+ at this point is with the purchase of a Leaf Credo 40 bundle promo. For $13,995 you get a great, modern, high res, fast shooting back, an LS lens sycning at 1/1600th, and a DF+ body. That's $2500 for the body and lens.

I'll leave it to end users to report on their reliability findings. Since I'm biased my answer between H and DF+ wouldn't mean much. I can say we found the DF to be of only okay reliability, especially after high shutter counts, while the DF+ on current firmware we have found to be quite reliable. Good thing too, since we have a half dozen in rental at any given time!

wagabundo

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I would like to have 645DF+.. it's more reliable, but I was thinking about 645DF (without plus) because my budget limits.
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ErikKaffehr

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What is the specified operating range? Zero to 40C?

Best regards
Erik



DF or DF+?

Notably the flash sync for LS lenses on a DF+ is 1/1600th, and the back (the most expensive part) is made to handle crazy abuse:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ytrsdSR_67Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOemv9F_Ahw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3J4BErvU-kg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0SljqdzCNQ

Also the DF and DF+ are still "current" meaning service, support, and repairs are provided without limitation.

Probably the least expensive way into a DF+ at this point is with the purchase of a Leaf Credo 40 bundle promo. For $13,995 you get a great, modern, high res, fast shooting back, an LS lens sycning at 1/1600th, and a DF+ body. That's $2500 for the body and lens.

I'll leave it to end users to report on their reliability findings. Since I'm biased my answer between H and DF+ wouldn't mean much. I can say we found the DF to be of only okay reliability, especially after high shutter counts, while the DF+ on current firmware we have found to be quite reliable. Good thing too, since we have a half dozen in rental at any given time!
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Paul2660

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Does the DF support the flash at  1/1600 with LS lenses. I thought it did.

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
Little Rock, Arkansas U.S.
www.photosofarkansas.com

ErikKaffehr

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Hi,

Regarding reliability, you need to be aware of a few things:

  • Some Hasselblad backs, your option amongst them, are no longer be able to repair. Due to component shortage.
  • One frequent poster here has spent like 3000€ and 9 months on Leaf back slightly outside 0-40C environmental conditions. His dealer jus cost him money. All dealers are not created equal, Doug at DT seem to a very good guy and that also applies to Steve Hendrix at CI. Be careful with your choice of dealer!
  • Repairs seem to be expensive and frequent. My P45+ works well, this far, but some good posters on these threads have indicated that backs can be quite problematic. To be more specific, one of the posters I trust pretty much had repairs on all backs he had. Send me a PM if you need a reference.
  • I would suggest you find a good dealer and buy with a decent maintenance contract, which may be called value added warranty.

I may also add that my opinion may be that most photographers may be better off with a really good full frame 135 camera and a couple of really good lenses.

Best regards
Erik
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 04:49:18 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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Joe Towner

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Strobes or Speedlights?  Durability isn't a strong suit for either platform - the Phase backs are super strong (there's a video of a car being held up by 4 of them) but neither body would be considered durable - (DF+ is a big improvement).

You say you want a big sensor - but why isn't clear.  Big CCD sensors require tripods (unless you Sensor+ for higher ISOs) when dealing with dark places.  Will this be possible with where you are going?

Where does weight play into your requirements?  The 645 lenses, either Mamiya or Pentax are a lot lighter than the HC lenses.

Due to working within a budget, how hurt will you be if the body fails you?  Is there room for a second DF body?  Ditto the H3 body.

I treat my H4D like a dslr and take it everywhere.  The moment anything drips it's back in it's bag.  You discount the Z really quickly, but everything in MF is about trade-offs.
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Doug Peterson

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Repairs seem to be expensive and frequent. My P45+ works well, this far, but some good posters on these threads have indicated that backs can be quite problematic. To be more specific, one of the posters I trust pretty much had repairs on all backs he had. Send me a PM if you need a reference.

That's absolutely untrue. The median number of service calls (calibration, repair, maintenance) for a back we sell is zero.

The poster you're referring to had several *calibrations* done not several "repairs". He's especially picky (well within his rights with expensive gear!) and had especially bad luck - a bad combo.

Doug Peterson

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Does the DF support the flash at  1/1600 with LS lenses. I thought it did.

DF and DF+ both sync at 1/1600 with most LS lenses. The zooms and 240LS sync at 1/1000th.

Both also provide focal plane shutter up to 1/4000th (flash sync limited to 1/125th) for any lens.

I was distinguishing between that and the H series lenses which are all limited to 1/800th.

Joe Towner

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FWIW, the OP is in Poland
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ErikKaffehr

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Hi Doug,

He expects his stuff to work, is that to much to ask?

I am quite happy with my back. But very clearly several person had issues with theirs. Edmund, quite clearly. Anders Torger had a lot of problems and a lot of those problems have been caused by bad dealers.

If you spend 20k or so I would guess that you would expect the stuff to work according to specifications. Now, in Anders Torger's case the specifications were the problem. Environmental specifications for the Leaf back were 0-40C. Anders had the "E-box" replaced at a cost of 3000€ (around 4k) and had a warranty on that repair, but it was not accepted until he could prove an error at +1 C. That was inside the stated operating range, and he got a warranty repair after something like nine months. I checked Phase One web site, and environmental specifications are still 0 to 40C. Well, it is pretty standard for home electronics. But, you know, if you are shooting winter Olympics, and you Canon breaks down I don't think CPS will say, sorry, our cameras are not expected to work outside 0-40C!

Let's put it this way. I was shooting Minolta and now Sony cameras since 1970. I have shot those cameras under artic conditions and had them soaking wet after shooting in skyfalls, I was pouring water out of those camera and they still worked. Pleas not that those were not old generation mechanical cameras but first generation AF systems, Minolta 9000.

In those 44 years I had something like three repairs, at the total cost of 1800 SEK, about 240 $US. I guess I was lucky. The only repairs I had paid for was replacement of bayonet on a 80-200/2.8 zoom lens. The other two were warranty, malfunction on a Minolta XD7 and macro switch malfunction on a Konica-Minolta A2.

I have owned something like 15 Minolta/Konica Minolta/Sony cameras, 40 lenses and a Pentax 67 kit with five lenses.

Quite obviously I have been lucky, but I am nevertheless quite impressed by the durability of affordable japanese equipment.

Best regards
Erik

Ps. One of my friends is a Canon shooter. He bought an EOS in the US, and got a problem when he got home. Warranty was a problem. He was not a CPS member, but Canon said that he fulfiled the requirements, so he applied for CPS membership and his camera was repaired for 40$, (240 SEK). Shooting Japanese stuff seems to be a different world!

Pss. In Sweden we have a proverb, så wind och skörda storm. Why do you do that?!


That's absolutely untrue. The median number of service calls (calibration, repair, maintenance) for a back we sell is zero.

The poster you're referring to had several *calibrations* done not several "repairs". He's especially picky (well within his rights with expensive gear!) and had especially bad luck - a bad combo.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2014, 04:51:58 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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douglevy

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Shooting Canon stuff is a different world. Try to get something repaired through NPS, even if you own $30k of their stuff...IF they respond to e-mail...but that's another thread entirely.

jerome_m

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Some Hasselblad backs, your option amongst them, are no longer be able to repair. Due to component shortage.

Some Hasselblad backs, but not the H3DII-39.
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ErikKaffehr

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Hi,

NPS would not serve Canon stuff. It is Nikon. My friend had a problem with his foreign imported D40 and was promptly helped by CPS at minimal cost (40 $US). But, same friend had an issue with a G-series Canon and was denied repair because they said it has bee subject to drop impact. But he had also a 24-105/4 that needed repair after 9 years of service, but he got it at very low cost (100$ or so, I guess), below 200$ for sure.

I actually have a Sony 24-70/2.8 that had a hard drop and that I will send to service rather soon. It works well, but it is clearly something loose inside.So I will find out more about repair costs soon.

I can also mention that I had a failure on my Hasselblad Zeiss Planar 120/4 lens. Aperture was not working, repair was about 130$, so repairs don't need to be expensive. Lens Rental has good statistics on repairs, as they handle something like 30000 lenses. Lenses fail more often than bodies and costs are normally reasonable.

LensRentals data is published here: http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2013/08/lensrentals-repair-data-2012-2013

Best regards
Erik

Shooting Canon stuff is a different world. Try to get something repaired through NPS, even if you own $30k of their stuff...IF they respond to e-mail...but that's another thread entirely.
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douglevy

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I didn't imply that they would (did it sound that way?) I'm just saying the service CPS provides kicks NPS's ass by a long shot.

ErikKaffehr

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Thanks! Good info!

Which are the backs that are no longer repaired?

Best regards
Erik

Some Hasselblad backs, but not the H3DII-39.
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ErikKaffehr

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Hi,

My bad! Sorry!

Best regards
Erik

I didn't imply that they would (did it sound that way?) I'm just saying the service CPS provides kicks NPS's ass by a long shot.
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Steve Hendrix

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For what it's worth, I have had good experience with CPS (and heard mostly good reports from others and not the case with Nikon).

When it comes to which camera is more reliable - an H body or a Mamiya/Phase body, I do not believe it is possible for you or anyone else to really say, in critically accurate terms, no matter what is posted here. Meaning, even the highest volume dealers, including CI, will have a good sense of it, but even then, there are so many variables that unless you are a high volume shooter, choosing an H body or a Mamiya/Phase body based on the expected durability will not provide a clear advantage for either.

Are they reliable? This question does not provide the basis for an objective measurement. For someone who has never needed a repair, they are very, very reliable! For someone who needed a repair within 4 months after purchase on their 3rd outing with the camera, they are not very reliable at all. For someone shooting high volume who suffers a failure 18 months after purchase, the camera might not be considered unreliable, but they would probably wish it was more reliable.

These are electronic devices with moving parts inside them - they are often bound to fail at some point, some sooner than later. Even the most reliable automobile, while it may go for hundreds of thousands of miles, for some, they have a failure within the first year. These cameras are reliable enough - otherwise, they would not be selling, I understand there are exceptions, and certain cases. But you'll mostly hear of the failures, and you'll never really hear from the others who have not had a problem. Certainly anyone who suffers a failure would like them to be more reliable. But to your pertinent question - which is more reliable, I don't think there is an answer one way or the other and it would not be my reason for choosing one of the other.

When it comes to the digital backs, I would state that they are more reliable than the cameras (or the lenses/shutters) in either case. Although don't believe you cannot suffer a failure there - I would certainly state that yes, we have digital backs, both old and new, that require repair. But a significantly smaller percentage than the cameras/lenses. Generally, it is quite common that a digital back captures x00,000 actuations without ever needing any service or repair whatsoever.

Your camera and lenses are what is most likely going to need the servicing and repairs, but between the two systems, I don't see a difference in terms of the likelihood of these events.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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Phase One | Leaf | Leica | Alpa | Cambo | Sinar | Arca Swiss

jerome_m

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Which are the backs that are no longer repaired?

CFH-22, CFH-39
CF-22, CF-22MS, CF-39, CF-39MS
H2D-22, H2D-39, H3D-22, H3D-39

31 mpix models can still be repaired, H3DII models can still be repaired, all H cameras (cameras - not backs) can still be repaired, for the backs for which full service has been discontinued, some limited repairs are still available


Source: http://hasselbladbron.com/index.php?option=com_easyblog&view=entry&id=59&Itemid=128
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ErikKaffehr

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Thanks Steve,

I hope your trip to the Alp(a)s!

Yes, I feel this is good info. Electronics are normally very reliable, that is mechanical parts that wear down. I also get the impression that Phase One backs are very reliable. But also that repairs can be very expensive. I also got the impression that you need to go trough a dealer for repairs, so I would suggest that you can try to find a decent dealer.

To the OP: I bought my back from Mr. Rib. He is living in Poland and has been a pleasure to make business with. He also has a P45+ kit for sale at around 6000€, if I recall correctly.

If I would relate my own experience, I am quite happy with my Hasselblad 555/ELD P45+ combination, but focusing is really critical. My back works well. I don't see a great advantage in image quality over my Sonys, but the 39MP vs 24MP resolution is clearly there. That advantage is, in my view, not significant at small print sizes, up to A2 but probably noticeable at A1. Would my P45+ fail, I would not replace it, but I will probably not try to sell it either. I guess I take about half of my pictures are on the P45+. My processing is in Lightroom, it is strongly suggested that Capture One gives better results, but we don't make friends, C1 and me. I have been a Lightroom addict since 2006. The issues I see with Lightroom are mainly demosaic errors, documented here: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=94812.0

I would say that the new CMOS backs should be interesting, if you can afford them and live with the crop factor.

Sony is said to introduce new pro oriented cameras end of January or beginning of February, those cameras will probably be in the 46-54 MP range and have new sensor technology. Sony A-series take almost any lens, so you can put an Otus on it, with an adapter. You can probably buy one of those A9 (?) cameras with both Zeiss Otus lenses for the price of a digital back. Canon is said to release similar cameras in the same time frame, and Sony sensors are bound to show up in Nikons pretty soon.

Well, some food for thought. Whatever you choose I wish you happiness with you choice!

Best regards
Erik







For what it's worth, I have had good experience with CPS (and heard mostly good reports from others and not the case with Nikon).

When it comes to which camera is more reliable - an H body or a Mamiya/Phase body, I do not believe it is possible for you or anyone else to really say, in critically accurate terms, no matter what is posted here. Meaning, even the highest volume dealers, including CI, will have a good sense of it, but even then, there are so many variables that unless you are a high volume shooter, choosing an H body or a Mamiya/Phase body based on the expected durability will not provide a clear advantage for either.

Are they reliable? This question does not provide the basis for an objective measurement. For someone who has never needed a repair, they are very, very reliable! For someone who needed a repair within 4 months after purchase on their 3rd outing with the camera, they are not very reliable at all. For someone shooting high volume who suffers a failure 18 months after purchase, the camera might not be considered unreliable, but they would probably wish it was more reliable.

These are electronic devices with moving parts inside them - they are often bound to fail at some point, some sooner than later. Even the most reliable automobile, while it may go for hundreds of thousands of miles, for some, they have a failure within the first year. These cameras are reliable enough - otherwise, they would not be selling, I understand there are exceptions, and certain cases. But you'll mostly hear of the failures, and you'll never really hear from the others who have not had a problem. Certainly anyone who suffers a failure would like them to be more reliable. But to your pertinent question - which is more reliable, I don't think there is an answer one way or the other and it would not be my reason for choosing one of the other.

When it comes to the digital backs, I would state that they are more reliable than the cameras (or the lenses/shutters) in either case. Although don't believe you cannot suffer a failure there - I would certainly state that yes, we have digital backs, both old and new, that require repair. But a significantly smaller percentage than the cameras/lenses. Generally, it is quite common that a digital back captures x00,000 actuations without ever needing any service or repair whatsoever.

Your camera and lenses are what is most likely going to need the servicing and repairs, but between the two systems, I don't see a difference in terms of the likelihood of these events.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration
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