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Author Topic: Optimum digital exposure: the birders case  (Read 13486 times)

dwswager

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Re: Optimum digital exposure: the birders case
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2014, 10:41:48 am »

Perhaps the 7DII isn't optimum for this task.

The 7DmkII has a great AF system with 65 all cross type sensors, fast processing and high frame rate which makes it great for the job.  This is where the whole debate about quality of the senor subsystem comes into play.  In controlled conditions, not usually a big issue, in constantly changing conditions where speed is important, it can make or break the shot.  In reality the DR, Color Depth and ISO performance of a sensor matters a lot because it is the ceiling on performance and it will never, ever get any better. 

I also agree that each conversion engine is going to handle things differently enough that one will handle this situation much better than others.  However, I'm more the learn one and know it well, than trying to juggle 3 or 4 different conversion processes type of person.



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BJL

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Re: Optimum digital exposure: the birders case
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2014, 10:26:11 am »

I may also add that I don't foresee giant steps on the sensor side. They are decently close to physical limits.
Sensor seem close to physical limits as far as the quality of the signal coming out of the photosites, but there is still significant room for improvement (particularly at Canon) in minimizing noise from later stages of the processing pipeline, so that Guillermo's ideal of "ETTL" could be pursued.  When the most exposure you can get to the sensor is short of blowing out any photosites, the only important constraint on choice of ISO speed setting should be avoiding amplifying any highlights into clipping; one should not have to worry about a too low ISO exposure index choice leading to further degradation of shadows beyond the noise already present in the photosites. That is, the ISO speed setting should some day be reduced to a convenience, indicating the intended level placement for the conversion from raw. Already, with some sensors it seems that any speed setting beyond about ISO 400 might as well be done with no further amplification of the analog signal or in the raw file levels, but just in conversion from raw to JPEG (or whatever final display format is used), a flag in the raw file to indicated the intended default conversion level (including display on the rear-screen or EVF.) Even super-fancy multi-million-point light metering could ideally just record information about the maximum pixel level in the raw file, rather than committing to the accuracy of that reading through extra amplification of raw levels.

... Making [the sensors] larger helps a bit, but than you need a longer lens. Twice the sensor diameter, half the noise and eight times heavier lens. To that comes the $s.
As you say at the end, for birding and other telephoto cases, this is in fact almost entirely about lenses that gather light faster, not larger sensors.  More precisely, the most fundamental physical constraint on low light handling is entrance pupil diameter: focal length divided by aperture ratio.  A 36x24mm "35mm format" sensor with a 600/4 lens is great for birds, but as far as shadow handling, probably a 24x16mm "APS-C" sensor with 400/2.8 lens or a 17.3x13mm "Four Thirds" sensor with 300/2 lens would be as good, due to the huge 150mm entrance pupil diameter in each case -- and the lenses would be about as heavy and expensive too!

My guideline is that when the user of a format would benefit from a prime faster than about f/1.4 to f/2 or a zoom faster than about f/2.8, that is when a larger sensor format starts to offer a low-light handling advantage, through the easier optical design of longer lenses of the same entrance pupil size.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 11:01:33 am by BJL »
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Optimum digital exposure: the birders case
« Reply #22 on: December 17, 2014, 07:51:00 pm »

That's a great idea.  I've been thinking about it.  Turning it on and off seems a little clumsy in the Canon bodies.  Is there a trick?

The Q-button: Unless you move to another section the bracketing section will stay for the next press of the Q-button and you just turn the wheel next to the shutter button to turn off bracketing. The other way is to have two identical settings as C1 and C2 except for bracketing. If C1 is with bracketing then turn to C2 to get off bracketing.  It's very quick. But also if you underexpose but e.g. 1 stop you can adjust in pp. no problem. I also would expect the overexposure you saw not to be a problem if you use Lightroom when the RAW format is supported.

Rory

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Re: Optimum digital exposure: the birders case
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2014, 12:17:21 am »

The Q-button: Unless you move to another section the bracketing section will stay for the next press of the Q-button and you just turn the wheel next to the shutter button to turn off bracketing. The other way is to have two identical settings as C1 and C2 except for bracketing. If C1 is with bracketing then turn to C2 to get off bracketing.  It's very quick. But also if you underexpose but e.g. 1 stop you can adjust in pp. no problem. I also would expect the overexposure you saw not to be a problem if you use Lightroom when the RAW format is supported.

Thanks Hans.  I subsequently figured out the C1/C2 thing, but I'll also try using the Q-button which is a very nice implementation by Canon.

Unfortunately Lightroom, although pretty good, is not good enough to pull the detail back.  It's a regular problem for us bird shooters and I usually nail the exposure, but it is tougher with the Canon than the newer Nikons.
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Optimum digital exposure: the birders case
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2014, 07:43:50 am »

Thanks Hans.  I subsequently figured out the C1/C2 thing, but I'll also try using the Q-button which is a very nice implementation by Canon.

Unfortunately Lightroom, although pretty good, is not good enough to pull the detail back.  It's a regular problem for us bird shooters and I usually nail the exposure, but it is tougher with the Canon than the newer Nikons.

I had the old 7D and I looked at some shots I did back in 2010. The lens was the Canon 500 f/4L IS with the Canon 1.4x TC III at f/5.6, ISO 800, 1/1600s. Attached Rawdigger screen shot and edited version and default Lightroom settings at 1:1 view. I have not tried the 7D mkII, but would expect the results to be better. I sold the 7D off again as I was more happy using my 1Ds mkIII for bird and animal shooting despite the lower pixel density.

Rory

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Re: Optimum digital exposure: the birders case
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2014, 10:06:21 am »

I had the old 7D and I looked at some shots I did back in 2010. The lens was the Canon 500 f/4L IS with the Canon 1.4x TC III at f/5.6, ISO 800, 1/1600s. Attached Rawdigger screen shot and edited version and default Lightroom settings at 1:1 view. I have not tried the 7D mkII, but would expect the results to be better. I sold the 7D off again as I was more happy using my 1Ds mkIII for bird and animal shooting despite the lower pixel density.

I can find examples where Lightroom does pull back the detail too Hans.  That does not help for the cases where it can't.  The way feathers reflect light is extremely variable.  I usually manage to get the exposure the way I want - but not always.
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Optimum digital exposure: the birders case
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2014, 11:33:57 am »

I can find examples where Lightroom does pull back the detail too Hans.  That does not help for the cases where it can't.  The way feathers reflect light is extremely variable.  I usually manage to get the exposure the way I want - but not always.

You can, of course, also download the Adobe DNG 8.7RC converter and check your images.

Rory

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Re: Optimum digital exposure: the birders case
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2014, 01:17:00 pm »

You can, of course, also download the Adobe DNG 8.7RC converter and check your images.

That is helpful for those that do not have an up-to-date Lightroom or Photoshop.  The latest version of Capture One is also very good at highlight recovery.
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Optimum digital exposure: the birders case
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2014, 01:23:45 pm »

That is helpful for those that do not have an up-to-date Lightroom or Photoshop.  The latest version of Capture One is also very good at highlight recovery.

Ok, did you redo the original images you showed in the beginning post then?

Rory

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Re: Optimum digital exposure: the birders case
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2014, 01:28:31 pm »

Ok, did you redo the original images you showed in the beginning post then?

Yes I did Hans.  Lightroom/ACR could not recover all the blowout.
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Hans Kruse

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Re: Optimum digital exposure: the birders case
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2014, 01:35:32 pm »

Yes I did Hans.  Lightroom/ACR could not recover all the blowout.

Uhm, just surprised you didn't show the results given the long intro post where you were looking for help. But fine, end of story.

Rory

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Re: Optimum digital exposure: the birders case
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2014, 01:48:05 pm »

Uhm, just surprised you didn't show the results given the long intro post where you were looking for help. But fine, end of story.

Sorry about that Hans.  I got similar results with the updated LR from the raw file as I did with the original TIFF and LR 5.6.  I mentioned this in passing in post 16. The red and blue channels just did not have enough info.  I guess I should have shown this, but by that time I was more interested in the "how to get the exposure right" part of the equation.  Your suggestions about using the Q-button and C1/C2 for bracketing are much appreciated.
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NancyP

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Re: Optimum digital exposure: the birders case
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2015, 11:33:46 am »

Rory, any follow-up on your chickadee problem? I would like to know, because my favorite winter subject is another dark-and-white bird, the Bald Eagle. How's the 7D2 doing, BTW?
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Rory

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Re: Optimum digital exposure: the birders case
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2015, 12:06:19 pm »

Rory, any follow-up on your chickadee problem? I would like to know, because my favorite winter subject is another dark-and-white bird, the Bald Eagle. How's the 7D2 doing, BTW?

Hi Nancy - happy new year!

My first 7D2 was a dud, with inconsistent focus.  My second body is great.  The focus is extremely accurate, with quick acquisition and tracking.  Here is a recent example (larger size):



There is no easy answer to the feather blowout issue.  It has not been quite the issue with the Nikons I have shot with, but with the 7D2 you basically have to shoot, look at the playback at 100% and go from there.  I do have some rule of thumbs based on getting an exposure for bright blue sky.  Normally I would over-expose the sky by +2EV, but depending on the brightness of the white feathers I would shoot at -1EV to +1EV of the bright sky.  In this case I exposed at 0EV bright sky reading.  I decided to let the backlit portion blowout as I could not capture the whole DR.  Larger size.



Some birds white feathers are brighter than others.  For example, the neck of a Belted Kingfisher or the breast of a Common Merganser are extremely bright.  Bald Eagles are more of a medium brightness and it is usually easy to bring back detail unless you are dealing with a back or oblique side lighting issue.

In this example of a Horned Grebe, the lighting was consistent and I was able to do some test shots for the brightest feathers and then just stuck with that exposure, which was 0EV on bright sky.  Larger size.



Here is a Bald Eagle shot in mid-morning light which was pretty easy to expose at about +0.5EV bright sky.  Larger image.



I took all these images in the last week with the new body.

Hope this helps.  As I mentioned in my original post the problem with birds where the brightness of the feathers changes quite radically as the angle of the light changes.  In general, Bald Eagles do not have this issue.

Cheers
Rory
« Last Edit: January 02, 2015, 12:09:13 pm by Rory »
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LKaven

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Re: Optimum digital exposure: the birders case
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2015, 02:01:53 pm »

If you are using ACR or LR, have you tied the "camera neutral" profile?  This gives you (mostly) the linear numbers coming off the sensor, and without a tone curve applied that would otherwise exaggerate the highlights.  It won't "unblow" blown highlights, but it will give you the maximum headroom that your sensor afforded it.  It is a good place to start with the highlight enhancements if nothing else, and often can save the day.

Rory

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Re: Optimum digital exposure: the birders case
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2015, 03:14:16 pm »

If you are using ACR or LR, have you tied the "camera neutral" profile? 

Yes
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Deardorff

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Re: Optimum digital exposure: the birders case
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2015, 12:59:27 am »

With Ektachrome 64 we had 2.1 EV above neutral gray before the highlights lost detail.

Do some basic tests and check the images carefully. Looks to me you are over analyzing it.
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