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Author Topic: Questions about switching to MFDB (H3DII/H4D or 645Z)  (Read 7250 times)

noah a

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Re: Questions about switching to MFDB (H3DII/H4D or 645Z)
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2014, 10:08:58 am »

Thanks again for all of the kind words and the advice. My post-processing workflow with film is very simple of course, that's one of the things I like about film. (Other than spotting the drum scans, of course!) With digital I really like C1Pro. I have a somewhat out-of-date version but I like it and it seems to produce the best results with my Nikon files. I'm open to trying other software.

I was quite impressed with the Pentax 645Z actually. It's an ugly beast but it seems to be really nice to work with. The files are really nice and definitely a step up from the D800E. My shop only had the 55/2.8, and I was pleasantly surprised by the quality of the lens. It feels kind of cheap in terms of build quality, but it was sharp in the corners and didn't seem to have any bad characteristics. I normally shoot stopped down and on a tripod. If I'm shooting wide-open and/or handheld, it's probably for a portrait so absolute sharpness in the corners is irrelevant. But even wide open it didn't seem too bad.

It seems like I could pick up an H3dII50 body for less than the price of the Pentax body. The lenses will cost a bit more, but they'r e more of a long-term purchase. The Hasselblad has a larger physical sensor, possibly better lenses and at least one tilt/shift solution that I could add later. The back could also be used on a tech cam later. The downsides are that it's an older, used camera and service and/or parts availability may become an issue. Also I think I read somewhere that it can't use UMDA-7 CF cards, which means I'd have to buy all new cards. Not a big deal, but it brings up the issue of compatibility since it's an older system.

The Pentax is new and has a warranty, may have better weather sealing, and may be more versatile...for example it can be used at higher iso. That's not important for most of my work, but being able to handhold or shoot aerials from time to time may open up some new possibilities. I really like that it has two card slots for redundancy. I use the dual slots in my Nikons for an instant backup. I also really like that it can shoot DNG instead of a proprietary format. Downsides are that the lens selection is limited, and what would have been my main lens (the 45mm) is apparently a dog. There is no shift solution, and two of the three lenses I'd start with are older designs. I'd go for the 55, 75 and either a zoom or a 35.

DanielStone

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Re: Questions about switching to MFDB (H3DII/H4D or 645Z)
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2014, 01:24:13 am »

Noah,

Remember, that if you are only using these lenses(likethe 50mm, 2nd version) for a few weeks at a time, you can always rent the lenses for your trips. Yes, owning them is nice, but if you're only using them somewhat sparingly, it might be more cost effective to rent them.

However, seeing that you've been using a view camera for a few years, and if you feel that perspective control is a must for your workflow going forward, I'd keep your options open to that being a possibility down the line. The Linhof Techno is a wonderful little camera, and if you should choose to shoot (some) film, you can also use a rollfilm back on it, in addition to a digital back! I was talking with someone recently about using the "digital" lenses on MF film, and some of them have large enough image circles to allow for movements on 6x7 film(possibly even 6x9!). They mentioned that there is a NOTICEABLE difference between the latest "digital" lenses shooting onto film, vs the earlier Schneider/Rodenstock film-era lenses(even the last ones made, APO-Grandagon's and such). Just a thought.

You mentioned processing costs, have you considered DIY processing? Second-hand JOBO CPP/CPA-2's are on ebay quite a bit, and mixing up the chemistry from the Kodak bulk boxes isn't that hard, or expensive in the long run. But the convenience of having a lab do it is nice, however. I won't argue with that :)

cheers,
Dan
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Questions about switching to MFDB (Samples)
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2014, 01:43:39 am »

Hi,

I have posted a few samples from my P45+ here:

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/Shoots/BernardSamples/

A lot more images are here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/80-my-mfd-journey-summing-up?start=5

Now, this is P45+, but it is using a Kodak sensor similar to the ones used in the Pentax 645D and the older Hasselblad backs. Processing is done in Lightroom, which counts as a criminal offence to Capture One enthusiast, but C1 would not support either Hasselblad or Pentax, anyway. I use my own DCP profiles.

It has been a learning experience, later images are probably better than the older ones.

All images available in raw.

Best regards
Erik
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jerome_m

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Re: Questions about switching to MFDB (H3DII/H4D or 645Z)
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2014, 03:55:01 pm »

My post-processing workflow with film is very simple of course, that's one of the things I like about film.

If I may voice a dissenting opinion...

It just so happens that I visited an exhibition with large prints from 4"x5" (and even 8"x10"...) negatives this week-end. It also happens that I sometimes print fairly large from digital files. Considering your choice of subjects and the fact that you own and can operate a scanner many photographers would be prepared to give an arm and a leg for, I think that your idea to switch to digital is a folly.

I am saying this and I own an Hasselblad H4D-50. It is a very nice camera, I love it. It can produce the kind of results I saw on these large prints... barely. But not with a "very simple post-processing workflow".
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Questions about switching to MFDB (H3DII/H4D or 645Z)
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2014, 04:46:39 pm »

Hi,

The problem with older Hasselblad backs is that repair is not possible due to shortage of parts. Check before you buy. Exchange of IR-filter is still possible.

On the other hand, repair costs on backs are excessive, it seems. What I have read that battery replacement is around 500$ and and a broken fire wire connector may be around 2k$ or more. But this is much hearsay, would Phase One dealers mention realistic and firm prices for repairs that may be helpful.

The new Hasselblad CVF-50c is very reasonably priced (for MFD) but is limited to Hasselblad V series or technical cameras as far as I understand.

Leica S series may also be a consideration, a good weather proof camera at the same price level as the IQ-250, and with a lot of lens options.

The Pentax 645D/Z seems to be a very reasonable option. There may be a question mark about the lenses, but most samples I have seen from that camera (645D) have been seriously good. Lloyd Chambers has tested a lot of those lenses, his site is a pay one, but I would say worth the investment of 50$ if you plan on buying equipment for 20k$. Lloyd is generally pretty harsh in his judgement, any reader needs to be aware of that. The two MFD systems that Lloyd has tested extensively is the Leica S and the Pentax 645. On Leica Lloyd reports high failure rates (close to 50%, including both S2 and M-series) but he had no issues with the P645s he tested.

Best regards
Erik

Don't let my comments on the H3 stuff completely scare you off - the ability to use the Hasselblad back on a technical setup is there, and if you wanted to, you could even go as far as shooting an Alpa FPS to utilize a wide variety of glass, both MF and 35mm.

Check out what folks are saying/doing with the CFV-50c, it may be an option that hits your price point as well.

You didn't talk about your editing workflow - you may want to consider playing with the CaptureOne demo as it may push you in that direction.  Consider doing one of the POCP classes as it includes a license for CaptureOne Pro and will give you a chance to work with the gear.  Set it up for an extra day or two shooting with the dealer.
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jerome_m

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Re: Questions about switching to MFDB (H3DII/H4D or 645Z)
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2014, 05:22:52 pm »

The problem with older Hasselblad backs is that repair is not possible due to shortage of parts.

Not the H3DII.
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ndevlin

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Re: Questions about switching to MFDB (H3DII/H4D or 645Z)
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2014, 09:37:01 pm »

Noah,

I kind of echo the earlier poster's sentiment that, blessed with capacity with 4x5, coupled with enjoying in using it, I might be disinclined to switch to digital.

That said, I doubt you'll find that the older Hassy backs give you appreciably better results than the 645z. They *will* be much more frustrating to use in the field, but offer tech-cam functionality.  A tech cam, with the right lenses, used right (and there is a LOT involved in calibrating the systems to their optimum) *will* give you better results than any MFSLR system. We are, however, talking improvement at the outside margins, both literally and figuratively.

I've made a choice and will be getting myself the "z" in about a week.  I'll continue to write about my experiences here, fwiw.

Cheers,

- N. 
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Questions about switching to MFDB (H3DII/H4D or 645Z)
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2014, 01:00:05 am »

Thanks for good info. According to another post from Jerome_m the following applies:

Quote
My comment to make it clearer: The following models have limited repairs (like change of IR-glass)
CFH-22, CFH-39
CF-22, CF-22MS, CF-39, CF-39MS
H2D-22, H2D-39, H3D-22, H3D-39

31 mpix models can still be repaired, H3DII models can still be repaired, all H cameras (cameras - not backs) can still be repaired, for the backs for which full service has been discontinued, some limited repairs are still available


Source: http://hasselbladbron.com/index.php?option=com_easyblog&view=entry&id=59&Itemid=128
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=95057.msg776904#msg776904

Not the H3DII.
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Brian Hirschfeld

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Re: Questions about switching to MFDB (H3DII/H4D or 645Z)
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2014, 01:13:12 am »

Digital is a situation where new is almost always better, the Pentax 645Z is a great body physically, and houses a top of the line CMOS sensor, I don't see any reason why you would want less versatility (e.g an older 'blad, I owned an H3Dii-39ms) absent needing LS shutters for clash sync or something. From what I have heard / read about the 645 lenses in the past over at http://www.pentaxforums.com/lensreviews/SMC-Pentax-645-Medium-Format-Lenses-i4.html they seem to be pretty great overall and they are very reasonable used, and even the new prices, since seemingly they will start importing (or producing?) them again seem very reasonable.

I haven't tested out the Z specifically, though I want to, but the Sony 50mp CMOS MFD sensor is great.....I just wish it wasn't in so many cameras.

Best,
BH
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noah a

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Re: Questions about switching to MFDB (H3DII/H4D or 645Z)
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2014, 09:52:33 am »

...

I kind of echo the earlier poster's sentiment that, blessed with capacity with 4x5, coupled with enjoying in using it, I might be disinclined to switch to digital.

...

I never said I enjoyed shooting 4x5  >:(

I guess to be honest I do enjoy the process of actually shooting and I love the results, but some aspects are not enjoyable. Traveling with film is getting to be more of a hassle, and I always worry about having security open my film boxes, etc. Scanning is time-consuming and who knows how much longer I can keep my scanner running smoothly without spending a fortune. And spotting the scans...don't get me started on that! It takes a solid day to spot each one. My scans are actually really clean, but it would be bad to make a huge print and find out I missed a spot. So I take my time with it.

More importantly,  I've missed a few photos because I have no way to shoot handheld in a pinch, which MFD would add.

I'll almost certainly finish my Future Cities project on film just for consistency, but for some other projects I'll be starting soon, I'm not sure which is the better medium. 

The pentax seems nice. It was very natural to use and while I wish they had stripped it down more and done away with some bells and whisles, I think it's a great camera. The 55mm also seemed decent. It had nice rendering close-up and stopped down it seemed plenty sharp enough for the urban landscape work I do.

Nick--which raw converter are you using? I tried ACR which was decent, and my older copy of C1Pro which seemed surprisingly less good. Also, in your experience are some of the other lenses in line with the quality of the 55mm? I did read the other thread about Pentax lenses, but I'm wondering specifically if the 75mm and the 35mm are as good as the 55mm? I take it the 45mm isn't good at all? It's a shame because that is the perfect focal length for me. Have you tried the older MF version?

Thanks again for all of the advice. I may decide to stick with film for another year, but before starting any new projects I want to explore my options. Even if I stick with film, this advice has been valuable since it might prevent me from making a costly error.

ndevlin

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Re: Questions about switching to MFDB (H3DII/H4D or 645Z)
« Reply #30 on: November 12, 2014, 10:48:02 pm »

Noah,

I hear you - airports are killing film.   As re: the 645z, the FA-75mm lens is really excellent in my experience.  My first version was awesomely sharp.  For $175. I haven't used my current one yet.  But I have tested the A-75mm L/S and 135mm L/S that I picked up, and they were both superb.

The 35s are supposedly both good. Michael loves his FA (autofocus) one, and having shot a few frames with it I agree it's good.  Mine wasn't amazing.  I will try a manual focus A-35 and post my experience. I like the physical 'tightness' of the "A" lenses.  The metal helicals are lovely.  

Imho, you can find copies of both which will make you happy.  As for the 45mm.......its bad rap has made it dirt cheap.  Buy a couple and try them out. (that's a sub-$450 proposition for both).  If you hate them, resell them.  

I'm still looking for the best way to focus for stationary subjects. Live-view kind of sucks like it does on the D800, but is basically usable.  VF focusing is viable  too, and I bought a focus magnifier I'm eager to try.

As re: converters, I am a die-hard Lightroom user. Tried C1 years ago and just couldn't get into the UI/workflow. I know it's much better now, but I am deeply invested in time and experience with LR and, frankly, am unconvinced better would be obtainable elsewhere.  

- N.    
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 08:22:44 am by ndevlin »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Questions about switching to MFDB (H3DII/H4D or 645Z)
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2014, 01:10:31 am »

Hi Nick,

Hi Nick,

Thanks for an informative reply.

I would mention a few things.

One is that Pentax has solid reputation for environmental sealing and the Pentax 645D was no exception. Certainly a good thing.

Regarding LV focusing, sad the hear that it is Nikon D800 like and not Nikon D800 like (which I have been told is a lot of difference). With regard to "visual focusing" I would mention that I used to use Zeiss Victory 3X monocular on my blad. Have written about it here:

http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles/76-my-medium-format-digital-journey?start=15

Regarding raw conversion, I am also a LR addict. Capture One does neither support the Pentax 645D/Z or Hasselblad backs. But I feel that Adobe should make a decent demosaicer that works well with MFDs.

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=94812.0

In general, I would say that LR works well, but subjects like the sample above it fails miserably. Great advantage that it uses DNG profiles that are compatible with many other raw converters, well except Capture One, of course.

Best regards
Erik





Noah,


I'm still looking for the best way to focus for stationary subjects. Liveview kind of sucks like it does on the D800, but is basically usable.  VF focussing is viable  too, and I bought a focus magnifier I'm eager to try.

As re: converters, I am a die-hard Lightroom user. Tried C1 years ago and just couldn;t get into the UI/workflow. I know it's much better now, but I am deeply invested in time and experience with LR and, frankly, am unconvinced better would be obtainable elsewhere.   

- N.    
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artobest

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Re: Questions about switching to MFDB (H3DII/H4D or 645Z)
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2014, 06:30:35 am »

Noah, I have nothing to contribute to this discussion except my admiration for your work!
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bcooter

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Re: Questions about switching to MFDB (H3DII/H4D or 645Z)
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2014, 06:55:39 am »

Digital is a situation where new is almost always better,



In regards to "newer is better", in medium format, I'm not too sure about that.  

When you think about it that makes sense because all medium format, except the leica S series were morphed over film cameras, with the same autofocus, same type of usability.

I haven't used a cmos based medium format camera (probably won't).

Though when I added a Lecia S2 and compared it to my Contax and "ancient" p30+ if I was a pixel peeping, chart printing type of photographer,
I'd say the old P30+ produces an equal, maybe even better image than the leica.

I found the same thing when I tested a H5d 40mpx camera am sure it would be the same with the phase backs and cameras.  
The image quality is a toss up.

Camera companies want to sell new cameras and people that are camera junkies like to talk about new cameras.

Until there is a medium format camera with multi point autofocus, maybe even a pdaf sensor with focus points that cover the whole sensor, it's going to hold that for slower,
static more contemplative sessions medium format is good if not better, for faster, looser more action oriented imagery, it has, probably always will be 35mm cameras.

In other words, a cmos sensor is not going to make a medium format camera nimble, not in todays form factors.

Actually expert post processing and retouching will make more of a difference than the capture device.

I'm not saying don't buy what you want, or think is better, but no camera will do everything well.

I can do this all day long, talk myself into a new camera, but in the end, it really is the subject, the lighting, the post work, the planning.

These images were shot with more than ancient p21+ and Aptus 22 and P30+ respectfully and still exist today.
The first and third images were shot as nimble as medium format can work, on 20 session days.







No new camera will make them any better.

Really when it comes to innovation, most of it is in the prosumer mirrorless formats.

IMO  

BC
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 06:58:40 am by bcooter »
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Joe Towner

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Re: Questions about switching to MFDB (H3DII/H4D or 645Z)
« Reply #34 on: November 13, 2014, 01:39:10 pm »

BC, I'd love to come assist for a week sometime - you seem to have way too much fun.

The Z has Live Focus, with Focus Peaking and it's pretty slick.  The justification I can throw out there that newer cameras can do that our workhorses can't is high ISO when shooting in places where a tripod isn't an option.  I took the Z through the Chihuly Garden and Glass, and what I was able to do hand held in dark spaces is stunning.   Hand held, ISO 3200 f/5.6 at 1/125th using the 45-85 f/4.5 lens.  Full image, and a crop in on the detail, straight jpegs from the raws.  Here is the overall image they have published: http://chihulygardenandglass.com/static/ee_images/uploads/03_exhibtion_rotator_04.jpg

It's not needed for studio work, but when you're at the mercy of the environment or others, the Z is a handy tool to have available.
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NickT

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Re: Questions about switching to MFDB (H3DII/H4D or 645Z)
« Reply #35 on: November 13, 2014, 04:09:04 pm »

And spotting the scans...don't get me started on that! It takes a solid day to spot each one. My scans are actually really clean, but it would be bad to make a huge print and find out I missed a spot. So I take my time with it.



Noah lovely work on your site!

here's a spotting technique (for skies) that works really well.

Duplicate your base layer, set the blend mode to "lighten", then nudge the layer up and across using the arrow keys, you'll need to move it the same distance as the size of the largest spot.

Then apply a layer mask and roughly mask away the non sky areas. Really fast way to fix large areas.

Cheers Nick-T
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