Questions about switching to MFDB (H3DII/H4D or 645Z)

[noah a]

For the past five years I've been shooting mostly 4x5 color film for my urban landscape-focused documentary work. I'm satisfied with the results, barring the occasional lab screwup, but the cost of film is getting somewhat prohibitive and finding good processing is a hassle. There are no labs in my city so I need to send my film out for processing, which makes me nervous and adds to the cost. (Also because I shoot two of everything so I can ship it in separate batches for insurance.)

I've also been shooting with a D800E for occasional editorial jobs. It's great for jobs-- I like the camera and am amazed at the quality I can get out of it, since it's so small and fast. But I'm not a big fan of the 35mm aspect ratio and if I crop to 4x5 proportions I'm throwing out quite a few pixels. For my self-generated documentary projects I make large prints so I need enough resolution to make a great 40x50. The d800E is almost there but not quite. I don't want this do devolve into a film or d800E vs MFD thread. I'm just mentioning this so you know where I'm coming from.

I have a relatively small budget in MFDB terms. My needs are a high-quality image that can print to 40x50 with no excuses, I mean a sharp print even when you look at the print from up close. I also need access to a few great lenses, speaking in terms of the 35mm format, I need a lens equivalent to about a 30-35mm lens (but no longer) and a 40-60mm lens (I love my Nikkor 58mm but I could get by with a 45 or 50mm equivalent).

I'd also like the option to have some kind of shift or PC lenses in the future when my budget allows.

I've been thinking of a used H3dII39 or H4d40. But I'm a bit concerned that the H4d40, with it's smaller sensor, won't be different enough from my D800E to make it worthwhile. Am I off base here? It will give me the aspect ratio I like so that's an advantage. I know the H3dII is older, but I'm thinking the larger 39mp sensor would give me more of an MF look than the smaller, newer sensor. Also the bigger sensor might work out better for my lens requirements. Does the newer sensor of the H4d40 make up for it's smaller physical size?

With the Blad I could go with an 80mm, which is cheap and plentiful, and a 50mm. Later, I could add a wider lens and the HTS1.5.

How reliable are the older 'blads, like the H3dIIs? Should I be very concerned about getting hit with big repair bills right away?

The Pentax 645Z looks great on paper, but I'm concerned about the lenses. And all of the online samples I've seen have been horrible. The ones on the Ricoh site are a joke. The 45mm and 75mm lenses are cheap, but I've heard that the 45mm is a dud and that is my main focal length. Are there any shift/pc options for the pentax right now?

As with the H4d40, I'm concerned that the smaller sensor, and the CMOS sensor in the case of the Pentax, will be very similar to my D800E in the look of the files. I don't dislike the 800E, but looking back I did really like working with CCD cameras.

I don't care too much about high iso. I shoot 160 Portra on 4x5, and in fact one of the reasons I want to switch to MF is because I like the discipline and rigor that shooting with a large or medium format camera imposes on the photographer. (Being able to handhold occasionally might be nice, but I'll mostly be working with a solid tripod and linhof 3d micro head.) So if I need to shoot mostly at iso 50 or 100, that's fine by me.

Obviously, with the exception of the Pentax, I'd be buying used. And I've found it somewhat difficult to find good sample files from these cameras. The hasselblad site has samples from the new cameras but not the older ones.

Any advice or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

[Paul2660]

On the 645z you can find most of your answers in two previous forum posts:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=94209.0

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=94845.0

You can also find great info in the twin reviews by Michael and Nick on this site.  Two very good perspectives on the 645z

Paul 

[Go Go]

Find a dealer that has cameras that you can use for a few days.
Call them on the phone, nothing beats a good telephone conversation.
Use (test) the cameras by using them as you normally shoot film.
Review the results,
Test at least 3 different camera systems.
Shoot the Nikon and compare.

If you can test the cameras yourself you will be able to use your own judgement.
A good dealer will ship gear to you for testing!
I miss seeing 4x5 transparency film.

Love your photos, BTW

[Joe Towner]

Based off what you're looking for, I'd actually suggest you also consider the 645D.  It's half the price of the Z, and a 4:3 ratio at 40mp, so less wasted pixels than the D800E.  You can rent both the D or Z from lensrentals.com .

I would be cautious about purchasing a H3/H3DII system due to their 'best effort' state for repairs.

[jerome_m]

I have a relatively small budget in MFDB terms. My needs are a high-quality image that can print to 40x50 with no excuses, I mean a sharp print even when you look at the print from up close. I also need access to a few great lenses, speaking in terms of the 35mm format, I need a lens equivalent to about a 30-35mm lens (but no longer) and a 40-60mm lens (I love my Nikkor 58mm but I could get by with a 45 or 50mm equivalent).

I don't think that you will be pleased by a 39 or 40 mpix camera at that print size, especially if you come from sheet film. You should probably really try to get a 50 mpix model and even that will barely do it.

With the Blad I could go with an 80mm, which is cheap and plentiful, and a 50mm. Later, I could add a wider lens and the HTS1.5.

The 50mm exists in two versions. The older one, the only one you will find used, is not as good (reputedly). Of course, if you use them at f/11-f/16, any lens is good.

How reliable are the older 'blads, like the H3dIIs? Should I be very concerned about getting hit with big repair bills right away?

The price for repairs is on the Hasselblad site.

The Pentax 645Z looks great on paper, but I'm concerned about the lenses.

Here again: almost any lens is good used at f/11-f/16. Maybe that is an option?

I had a look at you site. Very nice pictures, but your series on cities appears to have been taken when travelling to third world countries. Are you sure you want to bring an expensive and heavy camera system on travel?

I also notice that you are based in Columbus, Ohio, USA. It is important to say so, since used prices in Europe and in the USA are different.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

My take is that I would wait a couple of months. Sony and Canon are said come out with 46-54 MP sensors. Now it is not all about sensors, we also need lenses to match.

Zeiss now have two really excellent Otus lenses 50/1.4 and 85/1.4 and Sigma tries to match those lenses with Art series.

I would also add that in many cases you are getting in a diffraction limited world. Perhaps you can do at f/5.6 with a 135 system but you may need to stop down to f/11 - f/16 on MFD to have same depth of field?

For the ultimate quality you would probably need high end backs with a technical camera. A technical camera can use tilt for infinite DoF (in a single plane of focus).

In the mid range, I don't think it is clear which way to go. Hasselblad is interesting for sure, and I have seen a few samples from the Phase One IQ-series that have been quite impressive.

Personally, I shoot a Hasselblad 555/ELD with a P45+. I very clearly got some great images from that equipment, but manual focus without live view is sort of a gamble.

[jerome_m]

Erik, may I suggest that you have a look at Noah Addis web site (the original poster)? You will find out that the requirement to print very large with a pleasing result and the requirement to get perfectly sharp images are quite different things.

[Paul2660]

As the need is for big prints, per the OP, 40 x 50 or so, there are a lot of options. 

You should easily be able to get a 40 x 50 out of a D800e with stitching, I can and the details I can capture seem to work for my clients.  I realize some shots won't easily work in a stitched solution and as Nikon doesn't have a good TS-E lens (again IMO) that's up to the sensor, then the 50mp Pentax or Hasselblad would also get there. 

Even 50mp native may not be enough without interpolation (i.e. photozoom, genuine fractals, etc.) from a single image.   I may have missed the printer he plans to use.  But Canon is optimized at 300 dpi and Epson 360. 

Back to Nikon, if the scene allows it, a simple 3 part pano (vertical) to create a horizontal image, will give you more overall useable resolution than say the 645z.  Lot less investment also. 

Paul

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Well, I would suggest that an IQ 180 (or so) with a technical camera and a Rodenstock or Schneider digital lens is the pinnacle of optical performance at optimal apertures. But, the OP says he is on limited budget.

As a side point, when the P45+ arrived, it was seen as good alternative to 4x5" film, with a careful workflow:

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/back-testing.shtml

On the other side, Tim Parkins testing shows that 4x5" scanned at higher resolution does offer advantages over most digital backs:

https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2011/12/big-camera-comparison/

https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2011/12/camera-test-editors-commentary/

This is a comparison of Hasselblad H3D39 image quality with Nikon D800, also fro Tim Parkins website:

https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2013/04/hasselblad-h3d39-vs-d800/

Another point is that it is always possible to stitch. A good stitch of three images with the camera in the vertical position essentially doubles camera resolution and works most of the times.

Best regards
Erik

Erik, may I suggest that you have a look at Noah Addis web site (the original poster)? You will find out that the requirement to print very large with a pleasing result and the requirement to get perfectly sharp images are quite different things.

[zuitomedia]

Probably your best sensor size per dollar solution.

[synn]

The difference between the sensor sizes of 44x33 cropped sensor medium format and full frame is more than full frame and APSC. So if you notice a difference between the latter two, you will with the former two.

I have a cropped sensor digital back (credo 40) and I can most definitely see a difference in the output over a D800 for my applications.

[noah a]

Thanks all for the insights. I should have mentioned, I'm in the US and I usually print on an epson 4990. I drum-scan my Portra 160 negs on my Howtek 8000. I'm very happy with the print quality at 40x50 inches and could probably go bigger if I wanted. At that size some grain is visible, but it's minor and visually pleasing.

I would be cautious about purchasing a H3/H3DII system due to their 'best effort' state for repairs.

I wasn't aware of this, but that makes an older Hasselblad seem like a big risk. I went to my local shop and to my surprise, they had a 645Z so I was able to take some test photos. They rent it too, but I figured a quick test should give me an idea.

Still, with the pentax I worry about things like support, service and also the future of the system. But I'll take a serious look at the files later today and tomorrow. They only had the 55mm which seems pretty nice. But I read (elsewhere on this forum) that the 45 is a bit of a dog. Now it may be that it's good enough at f/11. I'm not worried about corner-to-corner sharpness wide open, but i don't want visible smearing or huge amounts of CA either.

Perhaps it's not a good time, maybe sticking with 4x5 and my Nikons for another year is worthwhile. But a year's worth of 4x5 film and processing could pay for a good chunk of an MF system, so that's what got me thinking about it.  

I'm not really interested in stitching, perhaps it's my journalistic background but I like to get everything in one frame, and get it right to start with. Also, there are many small moving things within a lot of my photos, so it would be difficult.

And yeah, the P65s, tech cams and the like are out of my price range.

Thanks again. You all have given me a lot to think about.

[Doug Peterson]

I'm biased as hell but IMHO you'd be crazy to invest any money in any system without trying a mid or high res back on a tech camera.

A P45+ or P65+ or Credo 40 on a basic Tech Cam kit will have:
- movements on all lenses
- access to amazingly good lenses, both in sharpness (bite/draw/microcontrast), but also in OOF rendering, and in lack of CA, even when shifting
- the ability to flat- stitch within the image circle
- fantastic color and smooth tonality
- no mirror or focal plane shutter (no added vibration and no wear/tear)
- a shooting experience chuck full of traditional tactile knobs, mechanical movement, whirring shutters, and manual recocking. To me that is zen and heaven; to others it is slow and clunky - but you should give it a try to see what you think.
- an open platform where upgrading the sensor (back), body (tech cam), and lenses (Schneider/Rodenstock) are all separated out

I'm not saying this is for sure the way to go. You are the only one that can say this or not. But I am saying you owe it to yourself to give it a try. I'm in NYC and from Ohio and would be glad to answer any questions you have. Note my signature for obvious bias - I'm not impartial; though I like to think I've earned a reputation on the forums for good honest advice.

[araucaria]

Developing at home is also an option.

[synn]

Looking at your work, it doesn't seem to me like you would need a tech cam for it. A Credo 40, some older mamiya lenses and a 645 DF+ would work just fine for your application.

[ndevlin]

Hi Noah,

First off, your work is both spectacular and keenly socially relevant.  

Second, it looks like 4x5 done by somebody who knows what they're doing with 4x5.  You are one of the few people who seek advice on these forums who actually will see the differences that the better equipment gets you.  

Third, my strong feeling is that 35mm just won't do it for you.  However, you might want to look into the possibility of multiple frame stitching on something like the Harblei cam with an A7r mounted on it, using technical cam lenses.  That might get you close.

Fourth, your work made me think of Ed Burtinsky right away.  Ed came from LF film work and transitioned to really high-res digital MF.  That's probably the way forward for you, too.  That said, do not bother with the 40MP 33x44 backs.  They are way too expensive and do not offer a sufficient quality jump from something like the D810, especially stitched.  I know Synn will jump down my throat for saying this, but I sold my 645D because the difference to the 800e wasn't sufficient.  

What I think would be your ideal is actually one of the older 50MP or 60MP backs.  An H3D2-50 for under $10K might be perfect.  The back will probably never go down, and can be used on a tech cam - either right away or in the future.  And for your kind of work, the cruddy older cameras (Phase or Hassy - both painful) won't really get in your way, because coming from 4x5 they will seem breezy-quick.

Don't go less than 50MPs.  I have heard that the 50MP CCD Kodak-based sensors are also really good with tech cam lenses, though others might chime in more on that.

You're a serious artist, and I think this is the kind of gear that you should be looking at if you are exiting film.

Oh - one last thing.  If you often don't have movement in your images, a multi-shot back might be ideal.  The detail and quality in those is stunning.  A 39MP multi-shot might be an something to look at.  Under ideal conditions the quality exceeds the 50 and rivals the 60MP chips.

Lastly, if you can wait, the price of the older backs will tumble even further soon with the next-gen chips in 35mm that are coming, and with the new $10K MF reality imposed by the 645z.

As for the 645z....great camera.  Much better in the type of climates you look to be working in. It's fully weather sealed, tough, and the batteries last.  The lenses are better than people credit them.  You can find a 45-85 that would probably make you quite happy. With the exception of the 45mm, it's good kit.  Sadly, most of the samples online are autrocious crap.  I have printed some 28x36" prints from my own 645z files, and they look excellent.  

Cheers,

- N.

 

 

[BernardLanguillier]

You should easily be able to get a 40 x 50 out of a D800e with stitching, I can and the details I can capture seem to work for my clients.  I realize some shots won't easily work in a stitched solution and as Nikon doesn't have a good TS-E lens (again IMO) that's up to the sensor, then the 50mp Pentax or Hasselblad would also get there.  
...
Back to Nikon, if the scene allows it, a simple 3 part pano (vertical) to create a horizontal image, will give you more overall useable resolution than say the 645z.  Lot less investment also.  

Paul and Noah,

I have browsed through your future cities portfolio. Love the concept and the images. I visit Mumbai/Pona/Chennai twice a year and can completely relate to your photographic intent.

I read your comment about you not being interested in stitching after I wrote what's below, so feel free to ignore it.

But IMHO, your images would be very easily dealt with with stitching. The only one that would require a bit of thinking is the one with the blurred bike in the middle, but even that would in fact be pretty easily done if you know what you are after.

Most of the others would just be about using a pano head, 2 rows of 3 images (capture time about 1 minute max), open them in PTgui, correct for verticals, output a layered PS file and retouch the possible ghosting for those images with people in the distance. Processing time max 10 minutes for the difficult cases, 2 minutes for 80% of your images.

Before spending several thousands of US$ on a back, why not try it out with a 500 US$ pano head and trial version of PTgui and/or Autopano pro?

In fact I'll be in Pona in a few weeks and will give it a try.

Cheers,
Bernard

[synn]

Haha nick, I don't jump down the throats of those who know their stuff.

I guess the Pentax didn't suit your needs and I am not too surprised actually. During my research phase, I worked on enough 645D and credo/aptus shots made to see that the latter is indeed a step up in quality while the Pentax wasn't too different from the D800(To be fair, the new Pentax lenses were not out then  and of course, pentax files were processed in LR that adds the complimentary "Adobe AA filter to every image). Many may disagree here, but for my purposes, I see a significant step up in quality with the credo, and that's all I care about. In fact, the D800 only comes out when I need 16mm. Even when I actively pack it with me wherever I go.

Sometimes I feel like a masochist for carrying all that extra deadweight that I never use  

[Gigi]

Fwiw,  +1 for Doug's advice above. Tech camera, good lens and digital back. Even an Aptus7 would surprise you. By the way, lovely work. Very subtle, controlled, and meaningful.

[Joe Towner]

Don't let my comments on the H3 stuff completely scare you off - the ability to use the Hasselblad back on a technical setup is there, and if you wanted to, you could even go as far as shooting an Alpa FPS to utilize a wide variety of glass, both MF and 35mm.

Check out what folks are saying/doing with the CFV-50c, it may be an option that hits your price point as well.

You didn't talk about your editing workflow - you may want to consider playing with the CaptureOne demo as it may push you in that direction.  Consider doing one of the POCP classes as it includes a license for CaptureOne Pro and will give you a chance to work with the gear.  Set it up for an extra day or two shooting with the dealer.