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Author Topic: Which RIP for Canon  (Read 2972 times)

Jglaser757

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Which RIP for Canon
« on: October 30, 2014, 04:12:22 pm »

Does anyone use a RIP for the Canon IPF's? If so,,which one do you like?

 Or do you do your own custom profiles?

Thanks
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BobShaw

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Re: Which RIP for Canon
« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2014, 04:17:53 pm »

You are speaking of two different concepts here. The RIP takes the file and presents it to the printer. You still have to supply the correct profile for the paper. Some RIPs have a profile create facility.
I use Mirage Print on my Epson and it is available for Canon.
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Dan Wells

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Re: Which RIP for Canon
« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2014, 04:33:04 pm »

Assuming relatively standard media (anything from Canon, Canson, Hahnemuhle, Innova, Moab, etc... - the one exception is Epson media on Canon printers (or vice versa)), the manufacturer-supplied profiles tend to be excellent for the newer printers.  Of course, neither Canon nor Epson is going to supply profiles for the other guy's printer! There was a point right around the Epson 7800 and the Canon iPF 5100/6100/8100 when the printers got so good and so consistent that canned profiles have become really viable. Around the same time, Lightroom got good at layout and sharpening, which were the other two advantages of RIPs.

At this point, the only real reasons to roll your own profiles or use a RIP (some RIPs, notably ImagePrint, have excellent profile libraries, and others have very good profile creation software, although you still need a spectrophotometer) that I can see are:

1.) You are using some very nonstandard media - I am experimenting with silk printing, and will need to make profiles for that.
2.) You are doing more with layout than trying to print a number of the same size images on a page - Lightroom will print a bunch of stuff the same size, but won't mix and match -  (but, even if you are, check out Qimage, it has pretty darned flexible layout, and is much cheaper than any RIP)\
3.) You are using nonstandard inks (the only time the manufacturer will ever give you a profile for nonstandard inks is if you buy the ink and media from the same place).
4.) You have an older printer that manufacturers no longer bother to provide profiles for (iPF 5000).
5.) You are using Epson paper in a Canon printer (or Canon paper in an Epson) - neither manufacturer feels responsible to provide profiles for that combination. Sometimes, you can figure out who actually made the paper (neither Canon nor Epson owns paper mills), and get the profile for an identical paper under another name, though...

Unless you are in one of these situations, download the profile from your paper (or even canvas) manufacturer and try it before going any farther afield.
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Jglaser757

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Re: Which RIP for Canon
« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2014, 06:49:37 pm »

Assuming relatively standard media (anything from Canon, Canson, Hahnemuhle, Innova, Moab, etc... - the one exception is Epson media on Canon printers (or vice versa)), the manufacturer-supplied profiles tend to be excellent for the newer printers.  Of course, neither Canon nor Epson is going to supply profiles for the other guy's printer! There was a point right around the Epson 7800 and the Canon iPF 5100/6100/8100 when the printers got so good and so consistent that canned profiles have become really viable. Around the same time, Lightroom got good at layout and sharpening, which were the other two advantages of RIPs.

At this point, the only real reasons to roll your own profiles or use a RIP (some RIPs, notably ImagePrint, have excellent profile libraries, and others have very good profile creation software, although you still need a spectrophotometer) that I can see are:

1.) You are using some very nonstandard media - I am experimenting with silk printing, and will need to make profiles for that.
2.) You are doing more with layout than trying to print a number of the same size images on a page - Lightroom will print a bunch of stuff the same size, but won't mix and match -  (but, even if you are, check out Qimage, it has pretty darned flexible layout, and is much cheaper than any RIP)\
3.) You are using nonstandard inks (the only time the manufacturer will ever give you a profile for nonstandard inks is if you buy the ink and media from the same place).
4.) You have an older printer that manufacturers no longer bother to provide profiles for (iPF 5000).
5.) You are using Epson paper in a Canon printer (or Canon paper in an Epson) - neither manufacturer feels responsible to provide profiles for that combination. Sometimes, you can figure out who actually made the paper (neither Canon nor Epson owns paper mills), and get the profile for an identical paper under another name, though...

Unless you are in one of these situations, download the profile from your paper (or even canvas) manufacturer and try it before going any farther afield.


I  do my own fine art printing on Moab luster and Ilford Mono Silk among other papers  on a 3880. And,  I have tried the "canned" profiles from the manufactures and they are lacking in tonal range compared to custom profiles for me.. I agree with trying out before I buy but I know quite a few people that use Image print on their epsons. I am going with a canon printer though and needed feedback for it!
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Dan Wells

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Re: Which RIP for Canon
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2014, 08:28:01 pm »

What profiling package are you using that gets better results than the canned profiles? I might want to check it out... Custom profiles should work just fine on a Canon - I used them all the time years ago on an iPF5000 (and, while the gamut of the inks has improved a great deal, the base colors of each ink haven't changed) I know that the Canons are tricky for RIPs to support (so are the 7900/9900), because they violate the basic assumption RIPs make... A RIP sees the printer as a CMYK device, worrying about individual inks, and most printers basically are (they may have different strengths of CMY and K, but all their colors are variations on those four basic themes). The 11 and 12 ink printers have a few colors that are "none of the above", and a RIP either has to lose gamut by ignoring the extra colors (red, green and blue in the Canon case), or use a completely different model to add them. The easiest way for a RIP to support a Canon is to pretend that it's a 9-ink printer, ignoring the RGB inks. Unfortunately, a Canon without the RGB inks has a relatively standard gamut (it's not even as good as a 3880, which is designed to maximize 9-ink gamut).

This is quite different for a profiling package, because the profile just sees the printer as a theoretical wide-gamut RGB or LAB device, not worrying about the individual inks. As long as the spectrophotometer you re using can register a broad gamut, and the test chart covers the printer's gamut, the measurements don't care how you got there - it could be CMYK, RGB, CcMmY(4)KRGB, or even a single unobtanium ink with extraordinary properties. A 12 ink Canon is no more difficult to support than a printer that has only CMYK inks, because the profile is feeding into the driver while the image is still RGB, then the DRIVER is figuring out how to translate that to CcMmY(4)KRGB. It's only when you get down in the weeds of which ink does what, which only a RIP takes away from the driver, that the 11 and 12 ink printers matter...

Dan
« Last Edit: October 30, 2014, 08:30:50 pm by Dan Wells »
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Jglaser757

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Re: Which RIP for Canon
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2014, 09:08:05 pm »

What profiling package are you using that gets better results than the canned profiles? I might want to check it out... Custom profiles should work just fine on a Canon - I used them all the time years ago on an iPF5000 (and, while the gamut of the inks has improved a great deal, the base colors of each ink haven't changed) I know that the Canons are tricky for RIPs to support (so are the 7900/9900), because they violate the basic assumption RIPs make... A RIP sees the printer as a CMYK device, worrying about individual inks, and most printers basically are (they may have different strengths of CMY and K, but all their colors are variations on those four basic themes). The 11 and 12 ink printers have a few colors that are "none of the above", and a RIP either has to lose gamut by ignoring the extra colors (red, green and blue in the Canon case), or use a completely different model to add them. The easiest way for a RIP to support a Canon is to pretend that it's a 9-ink printer, ignoring the RGB inks. Unfortunately, a Canon without the RGB inks has a relatively standard gamut (it's not even as good as a 3880, which is designed to maximize 9-ink gamut).

This is quite different for a profiling package, because the profile just sees the printer as a theoretical wide-gamut RGB or LAB device, not worrying about the individual inks. As long as the spectrophotometer you re using can register a broad gamut, and the test chart covers the printer's gamut, the measurements don't care how you got there - it could be CMYK, RGB, CcMmY(4)KRGB, or even a single unobtanium ink with extraordinary properties. A 12 ink Canon is no more difficult to support than a printer that has only CMYK inks, because the profile is feeding into the driver while the image is still RGB, then the DRIVER is figuring out how to translate that to CcMmY(4)KRGB. It's only when you get down in the weeds of which ink does what, which only a RIP takes away from the driver, that the 11 and 12 ink printers matter...

Dan

Hi Dan,

I am just learning this steep curve in printing. I used a device from X-rite  to create my own paper profiles. Pretty easy to do considering im a newbie!  I did just find out that Digital Technology group( the company i might buy from) supplies ICC profiles that have a wider gamut than the canned profiles. So , I think Im ok with the profile aspect. They also sell a RIP called Mirage that seems to do a lot.
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Czornyj

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Re: Which RIP for Canon
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2014, 07:07:37 am »

Hi Dan,

I am just learning this steep curve in printing. I used a device from X-rite  to create my own paper profiles. Pretty easy to do considering im a newbie!  I did just find out that Digital Technology group( the company i might buy from) supplies ICC profiles that have a wider gamut than the canned profiles. So , I think Im ok with the profile aspect. They also sell a RIP called Mirage that seems to do a lot.

I wouldn't call Mirage a RIP at all - it's more a print nesting software.
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Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa

Jglaser757

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Re: Which RIP for Canon
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2014, 02:32:34 pm »

I wouldn't call Mirage a RIP at all - it's more a print nesting software.

Ok,,i was told its similar to the Canon photoshop plug-in but with a little more functionality. is that true?
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Czornyj

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Re: Which RIP for Canon
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2014, 05:23:14 am »

Ok,,i was told its similar to the Canon photoshop plug-in but with a little more functionality. is that true?
Yes, it has nesting capabilities, so it's useful when you print multiple images. You can download 14-days demo to try it out.

On the other hand, IMO it's not more useful than Qimage or LR print module to justify the higher cost.
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Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa

Jglaser757

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Re: Which RIP for Canon
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2014, 07:21:06 am »

Yes, it has nesting capabilities, so it's useful when you print multiple images. You can download 14-days demo to try it out.

On the other hand, IMO it's not more useful than Qimage or LR print module to justify the higher cost.

It's interesting that you mention this cause I was rethinking my decision to get it. Especially since the printer also comes with printing software and DGT has printing profiles. Or, I could make my own. Guess I saved money on that!
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