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Author Topic: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?  (Read 18459 times)

Guillermo Luijk

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2014, 07:31:40 am »

If the Nikon D810 is the reference you suggest to get stuck on, I'd definitively say not for me at all. As an (advanced) hobbyist I'd never carry such a heavy and bulky camera with me (despite its sensor being a beast) in my street walks or vacation time. For me it was really liberating to forget the nightmare of carrying my DSLR's, and enjoy such a nice compact high IQ system like this:




I can fit all the stuff I need inside the bag beside my girlfriend below, and enjoy it without having any neckache at the end of the day nor feeling observed when doing street photography. Not to mention that today I wouldn't like to live without the EVF, something out of the reach of DSLR systems.




With today's sensor technology, unless you are printing huge and need the highest quality (which I find reasonable for a professional photographer), I consider compactness more limiting than any technological parameter. We are perhaps demanding too much in the endless IQ race.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2014, 08:17:15 am by Guillermo Luijk »
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Dan Wells

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2014, 02:11:19 pm »

I will second Guillermo's point, and go one step farther - it's really LENS compactness that matters! An A7r body is compact enough for any shooting situation, but a Zeiss 24-70 f4 is a bit big for some! The Sony system would undoubtedly offer the best balance of size and image quality for almost any situation where its autofocus wasn't a problem - except that its lenses are big!

We have a higher-quality version of the physics problem that says that no normal-thickness cell phone will ever have a better than low-end Instamatic camera. In both cases, the lens you'd need simply can't exist. A compact 24-70 that covers 24x36 mm with decent speed is just as impossible to make using conventional techniques as a lens less than 5mm thick that covers any but the tiniest of sensors (the reason cell phones use the tiny sensors isn't space for the sensor itself, it's lens coverage).

There are a couple of ways forward while maintaining compactness. One is to improve the image quality of somewhat smaller sensors - APS-C lenses ARE smaller (and some of the Fujis are beautiful), and Micro43 lenses are smaller still (again, there are quite a few really nice ones). A second would be to improve the ability of sensors to deal with off-axis light (Leica M lenses are small and beautiful, but many don't translate well to digital because of their extreme ray angles). A third would be to use unconventional optics (radically shaped aspheric elements, exotic materials, diffractive optics or possibly even mirrors, for example) to decrease lens size. Cell phones already use some pretty radical aspherics, but every time a lens designer figures out how to bend light in less space, the phone designers use it to shave another mm off the thickness, rather than allowing the lens designer to improve image quality.

Dan
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2014, 05:34:04 pm »

Hi,

One reason I am not interested in the Sony A7/A7r is that camera size matters little to me, as I always carry a 70-400/4-5.6 lens with me.

There are very few really good lenses for APS-C. Most good lenses are really full frame and larger than they need to be.

With 4/3 it is a bit different. The system is built around the sensor, and the lenses that are good are really good, at least regarding MTF data. So, I would say that if 16 MP or so is good enough than 4/3 is a very reasonable choice. I would also say that 16 MP is good enough for A2 size prints. That is my experience, but more significantly, this is also what Ctein said in a pretty recent interview with Michael Reichmann.

But of course, I want some more…

Best regards
ERik


I will second Guillermo's point, and go one step farther - it's really LENS compactness that matters! An A7r body is compact enough for any shooting situation, but a Zeiss 24-70 f4 is a bit big for some! The Sony system would undoubtedly offer the best balance of size and image quality for almost any situation where its autofocus wasn't a problem - except that its lenses are big!

We have a higher-quality version of the physics problem that says that no normal-thickness cell phone will ever have a better than low-end Instamatic camera. In both cases, the lens you'd need simply can't exist. A compact 24-70 that covers 24x36 mm with decent speed is just as impossible to make using conventional techniques as a lens less than 5mm thick that covers any but the tiniest of sensors (the reason cell phones use the tiny sensors isn't space for the sensor itself, it's lens coverage).

There are a couple of ways forward while maintaining compactness. One is to improve the image quality of somewhat smaller sensors - APS-C lenses ARE smaller (and some of the Fujis are beautiful), and Micro43 lenses are smaller still (again, there are quite a few really nice ones). A second would be to improve the ability of sensors to deal with off-axis light (Leica M lenses are small and beautiful, but many don't translate well to digital because of their extreme ray angles). A third would be to use unconventional optics (radically shaped aspheric elements, exotic materials, diffractive optics or possibly even mirrors, for example) to decrease lens size. Cell phones already use some pretty radical aspherics, but every time a lens designer figures out how to bend light in less space, the phone designers use it to shave another mm off the thickness, rather than allowing the lens designer to improve image quality.

Dan
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Dan Wells

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2014, 11:55:21 pm »

The one disagreement I'd have with Erik's statement that "there are few really good lenses for APS-C" has to do with the Fuji system. APS-C lenses outside of Fuji tend to be low-end lenses made for cheap DSLRs (where the upgrade path is full-frame, and the better lenses are developed for full-frame) and kit and travel zooms predominate (there is the occasional better lens, predominantly wide-angle primes and zooms). Fuji, on the other hand, has a whole lineup of APS-C lenses, made for a system without full-frame bodies, and including a number of exquisite lenses.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2014, 05:03:10 am »

Hi,

Sorry, I forgot about Fuji! Mostly, I was thinking Nikon, Canon and Sony. Fuji is like 4/3 optimized for a smaller sensor.

Best regards
Erik


The one disagreement I'd have with Erik's statement that "there are few really good lenses for APS-C" has to do with the Fuji system. APS-C lenses outside of Fuji tend to be low-end lenses made for cheap DSLRs (where the upgrade path is full-frame, and the better lenses are developed for full-frame) and kit and travel zooms predominate (there is the occasional better lens, predominantly wide-angle primes and zooms). Fuji, on the other hand, has a whole lineup of APS-C lenses, made for a system without full-frame bodies, and including a number of exquisite lenses.
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Erik Kaffehr
 

Dan Wells

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #45 on: November 03, 2014, 01:14:23 pm »

Apart from Fuji, the world of APS-C lenses is a sad desert of 18-something zooms with elements made from the bottoms of Coke bottles, and a few better lenses, most of which are 10+ years old, designed when it wasn't clear full frame was going to be viable. There are a few new, nice, non-Fuji APS-C lenses, but only a few, and I can't think of ANY that goes in the category of really special lenses right now. Frankly, most of the special lenses I've seen released lately (apart from the Touits) are for one mirrorless system or another - Olympus PRO, Fuji, Sony Zeiss...
          Canon and Nikon are resting on their laurels with modest redesigns of (very nice) full-frame lenses whose predecessors have been out for generations. Nikon doesn't even have a standard FX zoom with fixed maximum aperture and VR, other than a 24-120 that is pushing the boundary between a standard zoom and a superzoom. Neither Nikon's nor Canon's bread and butter 24-70 f2.8 pro zoom has image stabilization! Both are bazookas to carry and use. I've used the Nikon extensively (owned it for years, before going all-mirrorless), and it's a good lens, but I prefer the Sony Zeiss 24-70 f4, and possibly even the Fuji 18-55 f4 and the Olympus PRO 12-40 f2.8 (neither of which yet works with a sensor with the resolution of some of what I paired the Nikkor with). I never loved the bokeh of the Nikkor, not to mention that it is an incredibly clunky lens to shoot with - big, heavy, poor close focusing and pretty much requires a tripod much of the time (and a tripod at least one size heavier than I usually use with my mirrorless systems, maybe two!).

Dan
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dwswager

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2014, 10:09:28 am »

First, I think many mistook 'plateau' for 'pinnacle'!  By plateau, I meant that improvements in image quality would slow and other aspects of development would supersede.  A plateau is a breathing point and is usually not constrained by technology development, but cost, manufacturing or other practical considerations.  It is a point where the user might say 'good enough for now'.   Additionally, we are talking DSLR.  That is using a 24mm x 36mm sensor. 

If we use MP (proxy for captured resolution), dynamic range, color depth and high ISO performance as our measure of image quality.  Then a poster in this thread indicated the D4 represented that threshold for him.  And I believe there is a lot of others that would agree.  That is, 16MP was good enough and other considerations out weigh his desire for additional MP.  If you asked most D4 shooters, however, if they could get everything they have now, would they prefer the camera to output 24MP, I think most would respond positively.  If, however, you move that to 36MP, what would the answer likely be?  I know for certain many photographers have shied away from the D810 specifically because they do not need, nor want to deal with 36MPs worth of data.  Are there photographers that would like to have more than that, absolutely, but the questions become is there a better, more cost effective solution than a DSLR sensor for that and is it likely to sell well enough to make it feasible for the manufacturer, at least in the near term?

I would love to see the sales projections versus actual sales for the D800/D800e twins.  I suspect total sales for the twins well outstripped Nikon's sale projections and that the D800e demand outstripped projections to a greater degree than the D800. I'm pretty sure the D810 is the result.

I also agree with the poster that mentioned processing power as the next area where advances could be made (allowing for onboard power constraints).  Current generation RADAR algorithms, a computationally intensive process, are much less sophisticated than they used to be precisely because the amount of processing power available is so much larger.  Processing power obviously would help frame rates, focusing and metering and overall usability.  I personally have 2 things I would love to see from cameras that processing power/memory would make possible.

1. User save-able presets (no I don't mean U1 and U2 on Enthusiast Nikons or the half-assed shooting banks).  Every setting on a modern camera, even if there is a mechanical switch like live view or the mode dial on the D750 is set electronically.  What I want is the ability to setup the camera how I want and save with a name those settings (complete state of the camera which would preclude mutually exclusive options).  A camera might say hold 10 such settings.  You could get at them from a menu or a button/dial setup.  Maybe there would be 3 or 4 buttons in a group on the camera that you could save 3 or 4 presets for direct access.

2. The ability to run 3rd party apps directly on the camera.  Thinking something like Helicon Remote, for example.  In studio, I'd prefer running this tethered to a PC with a large screen and more efficient keyboard/mouse interface, but in the field it would be better done in camera than tethered to my Samsung Note II.

Just my thoughts!
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allegretto

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2014, 01:03:42 pm »


1. User save-able presets (no I don't mean U1 and U2 on Enthusiast Nikons or the half-assed shooting banks).  Every setting on a modern camera, even if there is a mechanical switch like live view or the mode dial on the D750 is set electronically.  What I want is the ability to setup the camera how I want and save with a name those settings (complete state of the camera which would preclude mutually exclusive options).  A camera might say hold 10 such settings.  You could get at them from a menu or a button/dial setup.  Maybe there would be 3 or 4 buttons in a group on the camera that you could save 3 or 4 presets for direct access.
.

Just my thoughts!

Leica in the "T" and "S" do this. As does my 6D to some extent

can't speak to Nikon
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Dan Wells

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2014, 06:21:00 pm »

One of my favorite crazy ideas (admittedly for a relatively small market) has always been sensor-based tilt! Shift would require the camera to increase in size, but tilt (and swing) should be relatively easy - we already have actuators that can move the sensor for stabilization and cleaning. It shouldn't be that much harder to add tilt to that!

We could also improve getting everything into one camera. I shoot an A7r, a GH4, and an E-M1. Between the three, they're a perfect camera! I'd love to see a camera that has the still resolution and dynamic range of the A7r, video like a GH4 and the build of an E-M1. This camera could bin the pixels 4 to 1 for 4k, and 16 to 1 for Full HD, both with near-perfect pixel counts - the A7r is within a few percentage points of being standard 8k (twice Ultra HD 4k) across, with some extra pixels in the short dimension to account for the different aspect ratio - treat each 2x2 block as a pixel and cut off the top and bottom, and you have UHD 4k. Treat each 2x2 block of THOSE pixels as one and you have 1080p FHD (incidentally, at a ridiculously high max ISO). This requires some serious processing power (and write speed), especially if you enable the accidental 8k video mode it probably spawns.

Dan

 
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Torbjörn Tapani

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« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2014, 07:04:18 pm »

Pentax has a star tracker based on IBIS. I have also thought about tilt. Maybe we run into some heat dissipation issues and a whole lot bigger sensor to move precisely. But why not,  it could be done. Imagine using multiple touch points on screen to focus a tilted plane.

Reading the entire sensor for video is precisely what that Samsung NX1 does. It's 4k but we'll get to 8k soon enough.

I would like backlit programmable buttons. They could change color with a led. Iso is red, mode is blue, focus is green and so on.

Running 3d party apps should already be there. Why you have to get a different accessory to run camranger or similar just blows my mind. People hack Canons with magic lantern already. It can be done. It should be a feature, not a hack.

But they still make image capture devices without touchscreens and WiFi so I'm not holding my breath for any of this.
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NancyP

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #50 on: November 06, 2014, 11:41:09 am »

Maybe my standards are a bit low, but the Canon EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS is a reasonable landscape walkabout lens for APS-C. My guess is that there just isn't the market for very high quality zooms for APS-C costing more than $1,200.00. Even in full frame world, there are a lot of people bypassing the expensive Canon 24-70 f/2.8 II.
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allegretto

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #51 on: November 06, 2014, 05:53:52 pm »

Maybe my standards are a bit low, but the Canon EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS is a reasonable landscape walkabout lens for APS-C. My guess is that there just isn't the market for very high quality zooms for APS-C costing more than $1,200.00. Even in full frame world, there are a lot of people bypassing the expensive Canon 24-70 f/2.8 II.

Not just expensive... heavy and bulky too

Better sensors are just making the Big Glass less necessary in terms of light capture. Quality may be better in the 2.8 vs. the 4.0 but the physical factors just push towards the more compact designs
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Dan Wells

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #52 on: November 06, 2014, 08:11:14 pm »

No question about that - most of the recent high-end zoom designs have been f4.0 (or even variable in a tight range around f4.0, like the Fujis that are f3.5-4.5). The exception has been the Olympus PRO lenses, but those have the advantage (an f2.8 lens can be smaller, both because of the reduced coverage requirement and because an "80" is really a 40, reducing the front element size) as well as the disadvantage (need to be faster because of bokeh, DOF and ISO on the smaller sensor) of their smaller sensor. Apart from the Olympi, most f2.8 zooms are recycled designs, and the new f4.0 lenses, sometimes in the same manufacturer's line, often beat them on image quality, as well as compactness and features. If we were seeing truly new f2.8 zooms, someone would have come out with a truly top-end stabilized 24-70 or similar...


Dan
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Telecaster

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #53 on: November 06, 2014, 09:00:37 pm »

IMO cameras oughta be able to interact as easily & seamlessly with all our devices—smartphones, tablets, laptops, desktops, NAS—as they do with their CF or SD storage cards.

Re. photosite count…I'd like enough to be able to map an R, G & B from each Bayer array directly to each R, G & B sub-pixel of a 4K (4096x2160) electronic display. 36mp doesn't cut it for this, nor does our current RAW processing software.   :)

-Dave-
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hjulenissen

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2014, 03:34:41 am »

What would make more sense is a camera system built around a 24x24mm or 30x30mm sensor.
I think it is complex to decide what "makes sense" in the general... sense. If you have a large batch of lenses that are optimized for exactly 24x36mm (including light-blocking non-circular objects), it might not make sense to stray outside that sensor size. If you are free to design lenses along with sensor systems from scratch, you might have some freedom. If your users demand 16:9 images to go with their tvs or 1.41:1 ratio for A4 prints, then this might bias the "optimal" selection.

If ever optics performance vs cost becomes dominant to sensor performance vs cost (I don't think we are there yet), it might make sense (for some users) to spend a lot on sensor in order to maximize optics performance. That would (perhaps) be a sensor convering the entire usable image circle. The simplest shaping achieving that would be a square sensor of height/width equalling the diameter of the optics image circle.

Of course, the image from such a sensor would have to be cropped one way or another to make sense for most photography applications. Thus you are "wasting" sensor area and putting some (minimal) demand on end-user cropping skills in order to maximize the quality/flexibility that can be had for a given image circle.

-h
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hjulenissen

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2014, 03:47:35 am »

With the 36MP D810, we have already hit the plateau in terms of raw megapixels.  A significant portion of DSLR photographers deem 36MP too much, at least compared to trade-offs in other attributes like FPS, total frames buffered, file size storage and bandwidth issues.
Those would seem like trade-offs that will change over time. 64MB was an investment in memory cards when I bought it many years ago, now it is worthless.

While recording, processing and storing 36MP at sufficient framerates might be at the limit today, I am guessing that inexpensive cell phones will be able to do just that in a few years (they might not use the quality components that gives you "high" quality, though).
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 A full Frame sensor with 3.9μm pixels would be approximately 56MP!  While obviously, technically feasible, I doubt from a practical standpoint we 1)would ever see such a sensor, or 2)if it would actually yield better image quality.
I would be willing to bet quite a lot that 1) is wrong.
2) may well be right for many users. I don't think that it will be right for everyone.
Quote
There are, of course, other attributes to image quality beyond resolution as proxied by MPs.  Dynamic range and higher ISO performance being two biggies.  Any body have ideas as to which attribute might be the next to plateau?
Everyone have their ideas. Many of us will be wrong. The answer may well be a "socio-economic" one rather than a technical one. (Our understanding of) physics may limit what can be done at any one time, but the products that are available to customers may be limited by other factors, such as:
1. What is the cost of developing some new technology
2. What is the number of customers willing to lay out cash on that technology
3. What is the expected return of investment doing this as opposed to investing in something else
Quote
Not sure this has a whole lot of significance to a professional or the wealthy as they will purchase  incremental upgrades to quality based on value or status.  But for the amateur, somewhere in the plateau is where investment in new camera bodies make sense.  The plateau can be caused by technical or practical limitations.
Perhaps the amateur (French amateur "lover of") is the one that buys new tech "no matter what", while professionals (to a larger degree) buys "whatever will get the job done"?
Quote
The larger point is that once the DSLR platform stabilizes, similar to how PCs have, the manufacturers can go back to doing what they should be doing, making them function better and consumers can be confident that their purchase isn't going to be 'outdated' in a few years time.  I like that because I hate switching cameras.  Once I spend the time an effort to learn a camera, I much prefer making images than spending time relearning a replacement tool.
Is there some contradiction between increasing the number of megapixels and making cameras function better? Of course, if manufacturers succeed at this, it means that people will upgrade more often and used cameras will loose their market value more rapidly. I don't see a problem with that, the opposite would be a stagnated market where people keep their cameras for 10 years because manufacturers are unable to develop significant improvements. That means less money put into R&D and less improvement in image quality.

-h
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Fine_Art

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2014, 02:38:43 am »

Regarding the thread title, it depends on the type of photography you do. For some you are already there.

I think a lot of people have taken Jim's analysis of the Otus to represent what the future camera system can do. He never said you could do that. The analysis for the Otus is for that size of lens at that focal length.

On the other hand you take the very fine nikon 600 f4, drop a 2x tele on it, put it on a 36MP sensor, you have already passed diffraction.

The manufacturers dance around the physics so you don't really know what is going on. The simple fact is you will hit the wall when you try to extract too much angular resolution from a lens of a given size. The simple formula is (for green light) 134/Diameter in mm gives you the diffraction limit in seconds of arc. You know your field of view from the fl on 35mm.

The front filter on the Otus is 77mm. The 600 f4 is 52mm (not really f4 is it?).
field of view for the Otus is about 39 degrees, 3.4 for the 600, 1.72 with a 2x tele

1.72 degrees x 3600 = 6192 arc seconds. Diffraction is 134/50mm = 2.68 arc seconds. The d800 is 7360 pixels across. You are resolving to line pairs, not pixels. Notice how even the best long lenses in the DxO database have low resolution numbers?

Go through the same thing for the much wider and bigger otus, you can have a massive number of fine pixels.

What saves your tiny cell camera? The wide angle.

So the answer to the question in the title is in what angle you need, along with how big is the lens (assuming it is good).
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Jim Kasson

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2014, 10:35:20 am »

On the other hand you take the very fine nikon 600 f4, drop a 2x tele on it, put it on a 36MP sensor, you have already passed diffraction.

The manufacturers dance around the physics so you don't really know what is going on. The simple fact is you will hit the wall when you try to extract too much angular resolution from a lens of a given size. The simple formula is (for green light) 134/Diameter in mm gives you the diffraction limit in seconds of arc. You know your field of view from the fl on 35mm.

The front filter on the Otus is 77mm. The 600 f4 is 52mm (not really f4 is it?).

The 52mm filter for the Nikon 600 goes inside the lens.

Jim

Fine_Art

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #58 on: November 08, 2014, 10:45:46 am »

The nikon website lists the protective front filter as 52mm. That is what I am going on. If someone says the front is a 150mm lens I stand corrected.
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Jim Kasson

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #59 on: November 08, 2014, 11:32:38 am »

The nikon website lists the protective front filter as 52mm. That is what I am going on. If someone says the front is a 150mm lens I stand corrected.

From the specs page on the Nikon web site:





I don't have the Nikon 600, but I do have the 400mm f/2.8, which has a similar-sized, but slightly smaller, front element. It is one big lens,

Jim
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