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Author Topic: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?  (Read 18439 times)

dwswager

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When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« on: October 28, 2014, 12:59:50 pm »

With Film, image quality depended mostly on your lens, film choice and expertise.  The camera merely was a tool that brought functionality, reliability and durability to the table.  With digital bodies, image quality has always been limited by the camera (sensor sub systems, DSP, electronics, etc.).

With the 36MP D810, we have already hit the plateau in terms of raw megapixels.  A significant portion of DSLR photographers deem 36MP too much, at least compared to trade-offs in other attributes like FPS, total frames buffered, file size storage and bandwidth issues.   Hence, they have determined that image quality attributes gained by more pixels already are good enough at a lesser figure than what is currently available.  Now the 4.9μm pixels size of the  D810 is still well above that of the DX D7100 at 3.9μm.  A full Frame sensor with 3.9μm pixels would be approximately 56MP!  While obviously, technically feasible, I doubt from a practical standpoint we would ever see such a sensor, or if it would actually yield better image quality.  I suspect the D5 (Edited) will have 24MPs or less because of this, though there may be a higher resolution variant released.

There are, of course, other attributes to image quality beyond resolution as proxied by MPs.  Dynamic range and higher ISO performance being two biggies.  Any body have ideas as to which attribute might be the next to plateau?

The Point

Not sure this has a whole lot of significance to a professional or the wealthy as they will purchase  incremental upgrades to quality based on value or status.  But for the amateur, somewhere in the plateau is where investment in new camera bodies make sense.  The plateau can be caused by technical or practical limitations.

Prior to digital I shot a Nikon N90/N90s (forever) while playing with the Coolpix 9x0 series (900, 950, 990).  I started in DSLRs with the DX D300 and currently shoot the D7100.  I determined that I would jump back to FF only when the technology progressed (started to plateau) to the point that I wouldn't mind getting stuck with that level of image quality for an extended period of time.  (Example: I have a 18 month old Samsung Galaxy Note II.  The Note 4 is better in lots of ways, but I don't really mind using the Note 2.  I'd hate to be stuck with a DroidX!)  I personally think the D810 represents a seminal mark in DSLR evolution.  In fact, other than resale value, If I was offered a free camera, I'd rather have a D810 (or to lesser extent due to 24MP and idiot dial interface, the D750) than any other current Nikon or Canon body!  The D810 is that camera with which I wouldn't mind getting stuck!  Glad I resisted biting on the D600, D610, D800/800e.  While there will be better DSLRs down the road, I suspect they will be only small incremental advances to what the D810 offers.  (Not that I won't lust after them!)

The larger point is that once the DSLR platform stabilizes, similar to how PCs have, the manufacturers can go back to doing what they should be doing, making them function better and consumers can be confident that their purchase isn't going to be 'outdated' in a few years time.  I like that because I hate switching cameras.  Once I spend the time an effort to learn a camera, I much prefer making images than spending time relearning a replacement tool.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 03:23:58 pm by dwswager »
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2014, 01:09:38 pm »

if it would actually yield better image quality. 
oversampling is good
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Johnny_Johnson

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2014, 01:13:57 pm »

I personally would hate to be stuck with a camera the physical size of a D810. After shooting a Fuji X-E2 for close to a year I'm waiting for something like the Sony A7* series with a bit more refinement.

 Later,
Johnny
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Petrus

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2014, 01:58:38 pm »

Maybe we are at the edge of the plateau, as nothing better than D800/810 has appeared in a few years. Of maybe camera sensor R&D departments are just catching breath and give us something even more amazing next year or year after that. In any case getting to next level of performance will be more expensive even if the sensors were cheap: designing and manufacturing lenses which are good enough for 50+ MPix FF sensors can not be cheap (from the average amateur viewpoint). I have D4 and D800e, most of the time I use D4 as it is faster and has better ergonomics. So I could say 36 MPix is too much, but sometimes I like to go "hi-fi"...
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2014, 02:26:18 pm »

Hi,

I would expect that pixels shrink with improving manufacturing technology. The Sony RX100 I have has 2.4 micron pitch, that would correspond 150MP on full frame. So I would say 150 MP technology is feasible, I would also suggest that some oversampling is good. The images will be soft but will have better detail and less artefacts.

Many lenses are good enough for such a sensor, probably not over the entire frame, but over a significant central part. Large aperture lenses with maximum performance fuly open can be very expensive, see the Otus but it seems that the Sigma Art 50/1.4 is quite close, and it is of course possible to build f/2 or f/2.8 lenses that are equally sharp at a much lower price.

I would guess the main limitation may not be pixel size, but processing capability.

Best regards
Erik


Maybe we are at the edge of the plateau, as nothing better than D800/810 has appeared in a few years. Of maybe camera sensor R&D departments are just catching breath and give us something even more amazing next year or year after that. In any case getting to next level of performance will be more expensive even if the sensors were cheap: designing and manufacturing lenses which are good enough for 50+ MPix FF sensors can not be cheap (from the average amateur viewpoint). I have D4 and D800e, most of the time I use D4 as it is faster and has better ergonomics. So I could say 36 MPix is too much, but sometimes I like to go "hi-fi"...
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Erik Kaffehr
 

deejjjaaaa

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2014, 02:37:40 pm »

Maybe we are at the edge of the plateau, as nothing better than D800/810 has appeared in a few years.
talking about cameras (and not sensors) why 'd you combine D800 with D810 ? let us consider a primitive absence of EFCS in D800 or primitive abilitity to use EFCS only w/ MUP in D810... here we go... and that affects image quality
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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2014, 03:07:26 pm »

There is no plateau in sight yet. Mobile tech will make it happen. Read this (somewhat overhyped maybe) article about the new Samsung NX1: http://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2014/09/27/photokina-interview-samsung-nx1-redefine-pro-performance-quantum-leap-tech

That's 28 megapixels readout at 240 fps from the sensor and 15 fps continous shooting. Nikon could do a 10+ fps D820 with those kinds of specs. We already see Nikon moving their processors to basically mobile tech with ARM chips in newer Expeed processors.

It's no stretch to imaginge "APS-C" sized pixels in full frame sensors. You are already using the same telephoto lenses so no problem there.
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allegretto

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2014, 03:35:36 pm »

Imagine that around 100 yrs or so ago it was pronounced that all Physics had been illuminated and it was just a matter of solving a few equations to complete the entire knowledge.

It's that problem of the unknown unknowns again...
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 08:42:59 pm by allegretto »
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Jim Kasson

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2014, 04:07:43 pm »

With the 36MP D810, we have already hit the plateau in terms of raw megapixels.  

I have  four [oops, five; I forgot the H2D-39] cameras that can capture images with greater than 30 MP resolution: D800E, D810, a7R, Betterlight Super 6K. The last one is the only one which hardly ever could use more pixels as I use it, because with the BL, there's no Bayer CFA. WRT the others, I'd like more than 200MP. Many of the lenses that I have could take advantage of the greater resolution. Even If I'm not going to print at 360 captured pixels per inch, Bayer-sourced images can be res'd down to give per-pixel quality of that of multi-shot cameras.


A significant portion of DSLR photographers deem 36MP too much, at least compared to trade-offs in other attributes like FPS, total frames buffered, file size storage and bandwidth issues.  

I'm not arguing that cameras with hundreds of MP will be needed for every purpose. I use the D4 more than any camera I own. IT's great for situations where it can get the job done. I am arguing that High MP cameras will be in demand for the jobs that only they can do well. I am also arguing that the storage and transmission speed issues we have today will seem quaint in the future.


There are, of course, other attributes to image quality beyond resolution as proxied by MPs.  Dynamic range and higher ISO performance being two biggies.

Dynamic range and resolution can be traded off against each other. You can lower resolution and get more dynamic range after the exposure, but you can't increase resolution after the exposure.

The larger point is that once the DSLR platform stabilizes, similar to how PCs have, the manufacturers can go back to doing what they should be doing, making them function better and consumers can be confident that their purchase isn't going to be 'outdated' in a few years time.  I like that because I hate switching cameras.  Once I spend the time an effort to learn a camera, I much prefer making images than spending time relearning a replacement tool.

If your camera does what you need it to do to make the images that you want to make, it is not outdated, no matter what the capability of newer cameras. There is no reason to switch cameras unless your present camera can't do what you want it to do, at least for the first 250,000 or 300,000 exposures.

Jim
« Last Edit: October 29, 2014, 12:36:47 am by Jim Kasson »
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Petrus

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2014, 06:10:41 pm »

About dynamic range: now we have about 14 stops of dynamic range from the sensors (D8xx series from Nikon et all), but that seems to be about the maximum possible, not that sensors could not be better maybe, but the optics can not deliver more due to internal reflections. They could, using simple designs with few lenses, but then the resolution suffers. So I suspect we have already reached the DR plateau what comes to total system performance.
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Jim Kasson

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2014, 06:37:05 pm »

About dynamic range: now we have about 14 stops of dynamic range from the sensors (D8xx series from Nikon et all), but that seems to be about the maximum possible...

Since you mentioned lens effects, I believe you're talking about intra-scene engineering dynamic range, the ratio of full scale to the read noise floor. In my opinion, that vastly overstated the dynamic range that is usable for normal photographic purposes. I'd -- and I'm not alone on this -- define photographic dynamic range as the ratio of the largest signal that doesn't clip due to photon noise to the smallest signal that produces a signal-to-noise ratio of 10. If the read noise is around an electron or two, that would be the photon noise from a signal with a mean count of 100 electrons. Using the Sony a7S as an example, that dynamic range would be about 150000/100 = 1500 = 10.5 stops.

Note that reducing read noise below the level I assumed can improve inter-scene DR, but not the DR of a single exposure, unless multiple pixels are averaged.

Jim

Jim

dwswager

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2014, 07:35:58 pm »

Nikon could do a 10+ fps D820 with those kinds of specs. We already see Nikon moving their processors to basically mobile tech with ARM chips in newer Expeed processors.


I agree, that processing capability is the one area not yet exploited in a significant way.  As long as you can stay withing reasonable onboard power constraints, there is a lot that can be done with extra horsepower. 

But if 10+ fps is the 'big update' in a D820, that it is making my point.  Now, 10fps is a significant increase from 5fps, but other than very specific instances, it isn't a requirement.  At worst, it is a crutch for those that don't actually know their subject or environment.  Anyone remember manual focus/manual winding?  Auto winders and 4fps motor drives were Da Bomb!
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dwswager

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2014, 07:56:33 pm »

I have four cameras that can capture images with greater than 30 MP resolution: D800E, D810, a7R, Betterlight Super 6K. The last one is the only one which hardly ever could use more pixels as I use it, because with the BL, there's no Bayer CFA. WRT the others, I'd like more than 200MP. Many of the lenses that I have could take advantage of the greater resolution. Even If I'm not going to print at 360 captured pixels per inch, Bayer-sourced images can be res'd down to give per-pixel quality of that of multi-shot cameras.

The discussion is DSLR platform.  I personally believe that the practical solution for those that need more than say 50 MPs is gong to be a system with larger sensors and/or different technologies.

If your camera does what you need it to do to make the images that you want to make, it is not outdated, no matter what the capability of newer cameras. There is no reason to switch cameras unless your present camera can't do what you want it to do, at least for the first 250,000 or 300,000 exposures.

That was my point.  The D810 is really the 1st camera to provide the performance necessary to make the images I want to make.  I have made great images with the D300 and  D7100, but when I look back, I see the trade-off I was forced to make that the D810 minimizes, if not eliminates.   The D810 doesn't make these 2 cameras worse, only shows that they weren't good enough...they were a stepping stone.  Upgrading from and F2 to an F6 gets you basically zero image quality.  That isn't true going from a D1 to a D4 or a D300 to a D810.
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allegretto

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2014, 09:00:01 pm »

Do any of you photographic engineers think that Bayer technology is part of the "speed limit" in terms of useful DR, fps, buffers, noise etc....?
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uaiomex

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2014, 11:31:38 pm »

Do you remember the almost infinite enlargements of the point&shoot camera with amazing resolution and software enhacement in the classic movie Blade Runner?
I believe one day during the course of this century, we will be there and beyond. In technology plateaus are only temporary.
Eduardo
« Last Edit: October 28, 2014, 11:35:50 pm by uaiomex »
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PhotoEcosse

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2014, 07:34:07 am »

I don't think that there need ever be a "plateau" of image quality as far as dSLRs are concerned.

Perhaps a more meaningful plateau is fairly close now in terms of the ability to view those very high quality images - either as prints or on screens/projectors.

Or maybe the limitations of our own eyes will be the critical factor.
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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2014, 10:12:22 am »

That was my point.  The D810 is really the 1st camera to provide the performance necessary to make the images I want to make.  I have made great images with the D300 and  D7100, but when I look back, I see the trade-off I was forced to make that the D810 minimizes, if not eliminates.   The D810 doesn't make these 2 cameras worse, only shows that they weren't good enough...they were a stepping stone.  Upgrading from and F2 to an F6 gets you basically zero image quality.  That isn't true going from a D1 to a D4 or a D300 to a D810.

Shooting at 10+ fps was not really my point. Only that processing power is already there. What I would like is electronic shutter and a near instant multishot/hdr/bracketing/whatever mode. Don't need 10 seconds worth of buffer. But I would like a full bracket in a second or less.
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Jim Kasson

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2014, 12:37:03 pm »

The D810 is really the 1st camera to provide the performance necessary to make the images I want to make.  I have made great images with the D300 and  D7100, but when I look back, I see the trade-off I was forced to make that the D810 minimizes, if not eliminates.   The D810 doesn't make these 2 cameras worse, only shows that they weren't good enough...they were a stepping stone. 

I'm happy for you, but I'd be careful about generalizing your personal experience. I'm different from you, and it's likely that others are as well, since we all are doing different things with our cameras, and have different quality criteria.

For example, I make more images with my D4 than any other camera, in spite of its relatively puny pixel count (although I remember when 16 MP was a high enough count to get many photographers to jump the MF ship). I find the ergonomics superior to the D810, never have to think about the battery life, hardly ever fill the buffer, etc. On the other hand, for some work I want the increased pixel count of the D810, and I'm happy to use it. By the way, I find the incremental improvements of the D810 over the D800E (AF, EFCS, LV, are my biggies) to make a big difference in the usability of the camera, but they are simply a series of incremental improvements. I can see another set of incremental improvements (global shutter, hybrid finder, 54 MP, variable conversion gain) making me want the next version.

I don't see the progress of technology stopping any time soon or my desire for better tools to slake. As I said before, I'd like more than 200 MP (a pixel pitch of 2 um wouldn't be too fine). I'd like fully electronic shutter with 1000+fps 8K readout. I'd like to choose between an optical finder and an EVF with a press of a button, and I'd like EVF information overlayed on the optical finder. I'd like a half-silvered, un moving mirror for both phase and contrast AF. Eventually, I'd like to ditch the mirror altogether. By the time I can get all those things, I'll probably want more.

And I'll bet all those improvements will let me take my photography to places that I can't imagine today.

Jim

BernardLanguillier

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2014, 05:33:01 pm »

Progress will continue because you have thousands of talented engineers pressured by greedy stock holders needing them to innovate to generate the cash they need to buy their next Ferrari, itself designed by talented engineers pressured by greedy stockholders needing them to innovate to generate the cash they need to buy their next camera. ;)

Now, the D810 is superior to MF digital cameras that were themselves described not long ago as having convinced top landscape photographers to abandon 4x5. So that tells us something about the level of performance relative to most people's real needs.

Cheers,
Bernard

tnabbott

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Re: When and where will DSLR image quality plataeu?
« Reply #19 on: October 30, 2014, 03:45:12 am »

I think a square sensor is a likely evolutionary step. Take the D800/810, nikon has already built in different aspect ratios like 5x4.  A square sensor with dimensions of 36x36 would allow use of existing lens for the necessary image circle would not change.
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