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Slater-K

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LR and 4/5k displays, leading to a better app?
« on: October 28, 2014, 09:59:39 am »

Hi Everyone,

Not sure if this is the place really, but i wondered whether the advent of 4k and 5k displays will force LR to become more efficient / faster?

Currently on my 30" regular display, i can enlarge Grid pictures, so that there's 4 per row, and i can't get them any bigger, which i would very much like to do. With a 4k display, i'm told the fewest you can get on one row is 7, and so i'd guess that the fewest on 5k would be 10. I think that most people wouldn't be happy with that.

But to have LR being responsible for more screen real estate might mean that the engineers have to start using the GPU and address how LR allocates the use of the computer's resources? Hopefully this would mean it has to get faster and more efficient. I'm interested to hear your thoughts.


Notes:
I would welcome this because it seems to me that LR has two major flaws and both will have to be addressed if it is to function well on 4/5k. (Those flaws are, in my opinion:  1. it can't use most of a high end computer's power (no GPU and little multi threading - leading me to split batch processing into multiple parts because it's faster that way) and 2. it's set up for less powerful computers (i'm continually asking it to generate previews because it won't otherwise). Don't get me wrong, i love LR and have little desire to move over to C1, but these two things are the main drags on my use of LR.
I was going to buy a 4k display, but it seems little use with LR, unless you live in Survey mode.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: LR and 4/5k displays, leading to a better app?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2014, 02:28:26 pm »

Hi Everyone,

Not sure if this is the place really, but i wondered whether the advent of 4k and 5k displays will force LR to become more efficient / faster?

Currently on my 30" regular display, i can enlarge Grid pictures, so that there's 4 per row, and i can't get them any bigger, which i would very much like to do. With a 4k display, i'm told the fewest you can get on one row is 7, and so i'd guess that the fewest on 5k would be 10. I think that most people wouldn't be happy with that.

But to have LR being responsible for more screen real estate might mean that the engineers have to start using the GPU and address how LR allocates the use of the computer's resources? Hopefully this would mean it has to get faster and more efficient. I'm interested to hear your thoughts.


Notes:
I would welcome this because it seems to me that LR has two major flaws and both will have to be addressed if it is to function well on 4/5k. (Those flaws are, in my opinion:  1. it can't use most of a high end computer's power (no GPU and little multi threading - leading me to split batch processing into multiple parts because it's faster that way) and 2. it's set up for less powerful computers (i'm continually asking it to generate previews because it won't otherwise). Don't get me wrong, i love LR and have little desire to move over to C1, but these two things are the main drags on my use of LR.
I was going to buy a 4k display, but it seems little use with LR, unless you live in Survey mode.
I don’t think an Apple 5k display was intended to be used at 5k resolution, but instead is designed so it has enough resolution it has no “native resolution.  I’m guessing the default display resolution will be ¼ of the 5k, or 2560 x 1440.  Much like a retina macbook pro, using the native full resolution may not even be possible without a 3rd party solution, and the result may be less than satisfactory for many things besides just the number of previews ... the graphic elements of applications would be come so small to make usability suffer.  currently on the macbook pro, it will emulate 5 resolutions, the maximum being a 1920x1200 display.  At that resolution I see 2 across in the grid view. Using switchrezX I can enable the full native resolution of the display, (which is 3140x2400) I am forced to 5 across (the problem you bring up), but the entire user interface becomes too small to see ... have a hard time even finding the cursor.

However, it appears LR is leveraging the full resolution of the image area when one switches to 100% view. If I zoom in on an image while using my NEC 30”, I see less image than when I zoom into 100% using my rMB pro set to use 1920x1200.  I guess what I’m saying is when using LR (and PS). the image area is leveraging the full resolution of the display even though the interface is based on the display setting emulated resolution.

so I think LR will work just great on the 5k, with the caveat you may have to zoom into 200% to really tell whats going on, because at 100% the pixels are just so small your eyes can’t see it (something I see with PS on the rMPpro).

As far as performance, LR 5 seems to leverage cores better than 4, but maybe not as well as C1. (this is based on watching the CPU usages window in Activity monitor, maybe it’s not that accurate, but there I see C1 pegging out all cores  including virtual ones for most activity, where LR  rarely  shows any activity in the virtual cores and less utilization of the actual cores).

I see performance issues/lag with LR is when moving between images and a delay, or more notably when zooming to 100%, especially in the D module. Most likely this is related to my large file sizes (80mp back), so perhaps others (the majority) don’t really notice it .  But I also don’t see this with C1.  To me not a real big deal, just the nature of the beast.  However, I know for many shooters LR is just too slow.  My partner shoots for the local MLS team here, and LR just isn’t fast enough for him to meet deadlines, so he uses Photo Mechanic.
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ButchM

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Re: LR and 4/5k displays, leading to a better app?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2014, 03:09:43 pm »

I don’t think an Apple 5k display was intended to be used at 5k resolution, but instead is designed so it has enough resolution it has no “native resolution. 


I think there is some truth to that point ... as it pertains to how the 5k iMac behaves when working in certain circumstances ... however ... if the 5k iMac was not "intended" to be used at 5k resolutions ... 1) Why bother to offer it? 2) Why demonstrate it editing 4k video showing it still had room for toolsets in FCP X at full resolution of the video file being edited?

I think the 5k iMac IS intended to be used at full resolution ... and this review shows it is quite capable:

http://www.theverge.com/2014/10/27/7068363/apple-imac-with-retina-5k-display-review

Whether this increased resolution will inspire increased/improved performance in Lr is another factor. I can't see how Adobe can avoid coding Lr to allow it to be leaner, faster and more efficient in the face of increasing file sizes with each successive generation of cameras.
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Slater-K

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Re: LR and 4/5k displays, leading to a better app?
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2014, 06:37:36 pm »

Thanks for the replies guys!

I guess i don't really use 100% much, except for noise and sharpening, so i don't see that side of things being too crucial.

The advent of the 4/5k displays reminds me of going from 35mm to medium / large format, back in the days of film. A 10x8 print from a 54 neg always struck me as unfeasibly pretty, given how small the actual print was.

I guess LR will have to transition, and i think the result will be tremendous improvement for photographers, especially when culling or assessing files (with the former being my main anticipated reason to switch up), but it's probably early days and a lot more work is needed before LR can handle all those pixels. Fingers crossed that's in LR6 and not LR7!

Cheers
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Wayne Fox

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Re: LR and 4/5k displays, leading to a better app?
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2014, 02:57:32 pm »

I think there is some truth to that point ... as it pertains to how the 5k iMac behaves when working in certain circumstances ... however ... if the 5k iMac was not "intended" to be used at 5k resolutions ... 1) Why bother to offer it? 2) Why demonstrate it editing 4k video showing it still had room for toolsets in FCP X at full resolution of the video file being edited?

I think the 5k iMac IS intended to be used at full resolution ... and this review shows it is quite capable:

http://www.theverge.com/2014/10/27/7068363/apple-imac-with-retina-5k-display-review

Whether this increased resolution will inspire increased/improved performance in Lr is another factor. I can't see how Adobe can avoid coding Lr to allow it to be leaner, faster and more efficient in the face of increasing file sizes with each successive generation of cameras.
The point I rather verbosely and apparently ineffectively was trying to make is the user most likely will not use the computer at the “native” resolution, because things are amazingly small and relatively difficult to work with.  So the concern of the original OP that the largest grid view will be 10 across is probably inaccurate, it will most likely appear much like it does now on the current 27” iMac.  The article you quote discusses this very fact, and most of the screen shots and images shown are definitely not at the full native resolution because the menu bar would be about ½ the size it is.

The original post was about Adobe and how they would handle the “new” display, and the answer is they already are, and in fact retina displays are not new and this was dealt with several years ago.  The areas of LR that display an image are rendered based full native resolution regardless of the displays working resolution setting, much like Photoshop.  And while this sounds great, 100% view Photoshop is challenging because the purpose of 100% view is to see things more at the pixel level, but the eyes really can’t resolve to that small of pixels, so things like sharpening may need to be judged at 200% view (same will apply to Lightroom).  At 200% view the area will appear much like it does now on a non retina screen. 

The same thing will apply to many applications, Final Cut Pro will most likely work similarly, you will use the computer at a resolution that the interface is appropriately sized but the video display area, especially in full screen video, will leverage the full resolution.
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ButchM

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Re: LR and 4/5k displays, leading to a better app?
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2014, 04:32:57 pm »


The original post was about Adobe and how they would handle the “new” display, and the answer is they already are, and in fact retina displays are not new and this was dealt with several years ago. 

To be accurate, the Op asked:

Quote
"i wondered whether the advent of 4k and 5k displays will force LR to become more efficient / faster?"

Indeed, the new 5kiMac only invokes full resolution when prompted with high resolution files. Which the OS appears to do automatically. It would be rather annoying to employ it for all uses for the reasons you pointed out. Though, there is a difference whether Lr can display images and the UI properly on a retina display vs performing with increased speed and efficiency when dealing with those high resolution files.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: LR and 4/5k displays, leading to a better app?
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2014, 11:41:47 pm »



I guess my response was more regarding this observation in the OP which isn't how it works ...

Currently on my 30" regular display, i can enlarge Grid pictures, so that there's 4 per row, and i can't get them any bigger, which i would very much like to do. With a 4k display, i'm told the fewest you can get on one row is 7, and so i'd guess that the fewest on 5k would be 10. I think that most people wouldn't be happy with that.


Which the OS appears to do automatically. It would be rather annoying to employ it for all uses for the reasons you pointed out.
not that it's important,  but it seems the OS parts of the system such as the interface are certainly leveraging the density, but's think the application itself has to be aware and take advantage of the density. CS 6 and CC needed updated when the first retina Macbook Pro was released, difference was pretty apparent.

But as I mentioned, there is a  downside.  100% view works better for me on my 30" NEC than it does on my macbookPro retina display for many things.  When making a web jpeg in Photoshop, if you want to see it like you'll see it on the web, you have to zoom to 200% because the pixels are so small and the image is ½ the size it will be on the web. But then at 200% can I really accurately  judge final sharpening for those web jpegs at 200%?  Or am I better off disabling the feature so the image area is working at the set resolution, not the display resolution?  I really haven't decided which way works best.  And how about LR?  At 100% view I have the same problem, a pixel density so small that it may be hard to judge what capture sharpening is really doing, and noise so small I don't see it as well.
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Slater-K

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Re: LR and 4/5k displays, leading to a better app?
« Reply #7 on: October 30, 2014, 03:57:52 am »

Hi Wayne,

I think your main argument against 4/5k is that you'd rather use it as 2.5k display! If that's the case, then it seems sensible to say that you'd be better of with a 2.5k display. However, if the 5k iMac screens are just a doubling in each direction, all a person has to do, is see any image at 200% and they're emulating the 2.5k display.

1111
1111
0000
0000

has become

11
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The argument about not being able to see the cursor / panels / menus is surely a red herring because presumably, the makers of any OS that is going to be used with a high res screen will just enlarge the number of pixels making up those cursor / panels / menus, and again you're back where you started. (cf retina iPads.)

Sure, it will need a new way of organising OS elements, but as Butch pointed out, the main thrust of my argument is that high res displays will surely necessitate a better and faster LR, and that i'd hope that this comes sooner than later.

The other part is that as things currently stand, it seems to me, LR has an upper limit for grid images, that is measured in pixels. If those pixels are being used at a higher density, then the Grid mode becomes crippled, because it will only show very small images (perhaps so small, that you can only see 10 on a row, in 5k). Because Grid mode is probably the primary mode for many people, as things currently stand, using LR on a 4/5k display for many people may be a step backwards.

Cheers



But as I mentioned, there is a  downside.  100% view works better for me on my 30" NEC than it does on my macbookPro retina display for many things.  When making a web jpeg in Photoshop, if you want to see it like you'll see it on the web, you have to zoom to 200% because the pixels are so small and the image is ½ the size it will be on the web. But then at 200% can I really accurately  judge final sharpening for those web jpegs at 200%?  Or am I better off disabling the feature so the image area is working at the set resolution, not the display resolution?  I really haven't decided which way works best.  And how about LR?  At 100% view I have the same problem, a pixel density so small that it may be hard to judge what capture sharpening is really doing, and noise so small I don't see it as well.
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Wayne Fox

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Re: LR and 4/5k displays, leading to a better app?
« Reply #8 on: October 30, 2014, 03:00:03 pm »

One reason I even popped into this discussion it because there are some assumptions being made by the OP which I don’t believe are a happening. Retina displays are not new, and I have been using one while in the field and on other occasions for nearly 2 years now,
I think your main argument against 4/5k is that you'd rather use it as 2.5k display! If that’s the case, then it seems sensible to say that you'd be better of with a 2.5k display.
One of the main advantages of using a HiDPI display is there really isn’t a native resolution anymore.  But it also means the resolution is so fine the native resolution is really unusable.  It’s just how they work. But the advantage is certain elements can take advantage of the increased density to offer some improved clarity. I’m not sure I see a real advantage to photographers who are after the best, because gamut and color reliability are much bigger issues.  I’m not giving up my NEC 302w until someone (probably not Apple) comes up with a 4k or 5K display that can equal it’s ability in gamut and rendering. Now if I was into 4k video, probably a different story.
Quote
However, if the 5k iMac screens are just a doubling in each direction, all a person has to do, is see any image at 200% and they’re emulating the 2.5k display.
Yeah, seems pretty simple but when I first had the computer I resized some images to web size in photoshop, used 200% view to judge final sharpening, then saved that out as a jpeg 12 and opened the image in a browser, there seem to some very slight anomalies in the PS view when comparing to the web view. Probably just looking too hard but maybe from not using the retina displays at 50% of the normal size, but a smaller percentage than that, something I believe most do and will also do on the new Retina display (at that size the menu bar would be 0.2 inches tall).

I prefer to emulate the previous macBook Pro glossy by using 1680x1050 which was the native resolution in the previous MacBook I had (the native is 3840x2400, so 50% size is 1920x1200). But you are correct that within photoshop the image area it operates as you describe so a 200% should be pretty straightforward.  This means a retina display in Photoshop is similar to working in other displays at 50%, but perhaps the best benefit is output sharpening which was always best judged at 50% in PS before is now pretty effectively judged on the retina displays at 100%.
Quote

The argument about not being able to see the cursor / panels / menus is surely a red herring because presumably, the makers of any OS that is going to be used with a high res screen will just enlarge the number of pixels making up those cursor / panels / menus, and again you’re back where you started. (cf retina iPads.)
As I mentioned, this already happens and is a complete non issue, you choose the resolution you want the interface/computer to work at, but the application can leverage the full pixel density for elements within it.  Both Photosohp and Lightroom already do this.

Quote
Sure, it will need a new way of organising OS elements, but as Butch pointed out, the main thrust of my argument is that high res displays will surely necessitate a better and faster LR, and that i'd hope that this comes sooner than later.

The other part is that as things currently stand, it seems to me, LR has an upper limit for grid images, that is measured in pixels. If those pixels are being used at a higher density, then the Grid mode becomes crippled, because it will only show very small images (perhaps so small, that you can only see 10 on a row, in 5k). Because Grid mode is probably the primary mode for many people, as things currently stand, using LR on a 4/5k display for many people may be a step backwards.

All of this is on the assumption that you choose the use the display at an incredibly high resolution for everything.  Even with good glasses, I have to get about 15” from the screen of the MacBook Pro to even have any hope of clicking on many elements.  The mac menu bar is 22 pixels high, and at full resolution this means on the new iMac it would be 0.10 inches high.   And yes the grid will be too small with too many pictures.  But the entire thing is also unusable.  The solution already exists, and LR doesn’t need to figure out how to enlarge the interface elements, it happens by simply changed the interface resolution in the OS.  This solves the problem with how many images show up in the grid, because the grid itself works based on the interface resolution.  Whether the image area within each grid is working at the full display resolution I don’t know, but don’t think it matters, because the only real time the full resolution would be useful are areas with LR that you are at 100%, and LR already does this.

Now I don’t have a 27” retina iMac, and certainly there might be users who will choose to use a finer resolution than the current iMac (I do so on my macbook Pro), so maybe the lightroom team might tweak the grid a little based on new larger HiDPI displays like the new iMac.

To try and sum up my point of view, whatever Lightroom’s performance issues are(and certainly there seem to be areas which can be improved) , I don’t believe they are affected by the use of a retina display, and users of a retina display don’t/won’t see any real difference in usability. Retina displays are not new and the issues mentioned do not seem to be plaguing all of those currently using retina displays. 
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Stephane Desnault

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Re: LR and 4/5k displays, leading to a better app?
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2014, 04:19:56 pm »

I just bought an XPS 15 9530 laptop from Dell to do my processing on the road. The screen is a very sweet 15", 3200*1600 retina style display - 3K, not 4 or 5K. It's really a sweet spot for working in LR5, the images resolve beautifully.
I get 5 images across the grid at the biggest thumbnail size, which is a bit small to my taste. But the screen resolution is such that I can already tell a lot about sharpness just by looking at the thumbnails.
The high resolution is especially nice when zoomed in on the large files of the Nikon D800: I can now navigate them without feeling I'm scrolling through the field of a microscope.
Since individual pixels are not really visible on the screen due to their density, it's not really "pixel peeping" anymore, but a more useful and realistic view of the photography I've taken - on screen pixel density is closer to what it's going to be on paper.
Regarding the size of the LR5 GUI, it's a bit small, but still very workable.

I have a lot to say on other aspects of this machine re LR5 - some good, some bad - but I figured I'd restrict myself to the subject of the thread :).
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hjulenissen

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Re: LR and 4/5k displays, leading to a better app?
« Reply #10 on: November 01, 2014, 04:54:36 pm »

The point I rather verbosely and apparently ineffectively was trying to make is the user most likely will not use the computer at the “native” resolution, because things are amazingly small and relatively difficult to work with.  So the concern of the original OP that the largest grid view will be 10 across is probably inaccurate, it will most likely appear much like it does now on the current 27” iMac.  The article you quote discusses this very fact, and most of the screen shots and images shown are definitely not at the full native resolution because the menu bar would be about ½ the size it is.
GUI elements does not automatically become small by using a fine-pitch display at its native resolution.

GUI elements gets small _if_ they are rendered at a fixed size relative to pixel grid. If they are rendered as "2x2 mm" or "0.3% of display height", they won't shrink with increasing native display resolution.

Apple seems to be doing a soft transition to just this. Legay applications will be rendered in a lower-resolution fram-buffer to be upscaled to preserve sensible sizes, while applications using updated APIs will be able to take advantage of the full resoltuion (assuming that developers are aware that doing 8-pixel fonts is really silly on a 5k 27").

...is designed so it has enough resolution it has no “native resolution....
This is a great point. If you have a highly detailed digital image (e.g. text) that is rendered at "just enough" resolution, then have to scale it to a display that has a slightly different "just enough" resolution, then you are into trouble. If the display is rather "plenty resolution", then it is more like an analog process, and the source resolution ends up being the limit.

This is the case with taking screen-shots on a regular macbook pro and seeing the preview scaled image. When I switched to a MBPr, this was much improved.

There is the problem that the most visually "important" parts of the image can be represented by a 1080p or even VGA image. Doubling the number of pixels in one dimension leads to a doubling in bandwidth, storage ,computation etc, but a less than doubling in "perceptual performance". For many applications (e.g. games) it might make sense to render to a lower resolution buffer, then apply (good) upscaling.

-h
« Last Edit: November 01, 2014, 05:02:49 pm by hjulenissen »
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