MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......

[Joe Towner]

"The company's Hollywood studio is in good shape, as are its imaging and finance units. "

If Sony were to stop making chips, Nikon would die a horrible death.  It's a proven money maker, just doesn't make as much money as copiers.

[bcooter]

And it does make one think that price matters, in spite of what ...............................

It doesn't matter to me that a camera, car, pair of shoes sells more than another one.  In fact I'm less inclined to buy what everyone buys, because the world is commoditized enough already.

My point is you pontificate continually about price ...  of camera, photography, photography instruction.

Actually my second point is why does a less expensive higher volume camera have anything to do with one that is higher priced and lower volume, especially when they have different business models and clientele.

Actually if I wanted that cmos sony look, I'd just buy an A7R or a D800 for a lot less and be done with it.

Personally I've always liked pentax cameras and would have bought a D had it tethered and had a larger buffer, but if I had bought one,  I'd be a little ticked off that the Z tethering suite wouldn't work with the 645D because 8 grand for a 2 year old camera body isn't peanuts.

To take a page from your book, my Contax/Phase systems are better in price than the pentax, especially the D, as Phase continues to support the p series backs that fit on contax with service and software.

Obviously Pentax doesn't, so I guess costs is in the eyes of the beholder.

But my question, are you going to buy a 645Z?

IMO

BC

[MrSmith]

Edmund, find something you love and use it.

I think he already has?



 

[sgilbert]

"I think he already has?"  +

[eronald]

I think he already has?



 

 

E.

[Ken R]

I think he already has?



 

+1

[synn]

+1

+2

[ndevlin]

But my question, are you going to buy a 645Z?

BC

That's the question indeed.  I could (just) if I really want to. I see much more in 4:3 and square than in 3:2, and have always dislike 35mm DSLRs.  An MF camera is just the right tool for me.  It used to be the Mamiya 6, Fuji 690s and the Hassy V.   I have yet to replicate my love of any of those systems digitaly.

The 645z is a remarkable tool in many respects, but, for $8K, I'm held back by three things: 

(i) the lack of electronic first curtain shutter, bc I believe that the shutter still degrades the IQ when working at the  shutter speeds common to landscape and related work that I do a lot of, even on the best tripods.  Leaf shutters or EFC solve this. As it is, I fear (though have not tested) that the D810 will be the functional equal of the 645z on many shots. 

(ii) The lack of LS lenses limits usability for location strobe work.I have the 75 and 135 LS lenses, but they are manual focus and require manual re-cocking bw shots - a stop-gap solution at best.

(iii)  Tethering is unproven.  My next camera will be used much more for studio portraiture, and stable, quick, professional tethering is a major want (this one may be checked off when we actually get to try IT2)
 
and

(iv) (this is a bit silly, I know) but I believe there are a couple big announcements in the near offing.  These may include a mirrorless implementation of this chip, as well as the release of Sony's next-gen FF 35mm top-end chip.  I neither need nor want to drop $8K a month before this happens. 

As I said in the first review, the 645z is OH SO CLOSE.

So here's another actual 645z shot, just 'cause.


- N.
 

[Joe Towner]

(iv) but I believe there are a couple big announcements in the near offing.  These may include a mirrorless implementation of this chip

So true, and yet, no matter how long one waits, there's always something just around the corner.  For me, I'd love a mirrorless - especially if I can adapt lenses to it.

But on the other hand, it was raining cats and balls earlier today, and a Z would have been perfectly fine out in it.

[BernardLanguillier]

At this point in time, the only back that I am seriously considering is the CFV-50c at 970,000 Yen.

I have the body and lenses and the Hassy V is IMHO, together with the Rolleiflex, the only MF camera with a shooting experience significantly different from a DSLR.

That combined with the possibility to use live view on a soon to be available Cambo Actus MF with one additional top Rodenstock digital LF style lens... that is starting to offer something appealing at a "reasonnable" price point.

Now, the 3 un-answered questions probably are:
- is live view really usable on the CFV-50c?
- what amount of tilt/shift can be used with CFV-50c and the Roddy 90mm HR Digaron SW?
- is the Cambo Actus MF accurate enough for perfect focusing?

The fact that these answers may be impossible to get unless I try myself are likely to kill the deal though.

Cheers,
Bernard

[eronald]

Info on tethering quality should be available in due course.
I do wonder whether EFC can be added by a firmware upgrade.

Edmund

That's the question indeed.  I could (just) if I really want to. I see much more in 4:3 and square than in 3:2, and have always dislike 35mm DSLRs.  An MF camera is just the right tool for me.  It used to be the Mamiya 6, Fuji 690s and the Hassy V.   I have yet to replicate my love of any of those systems digitaly.

The 645z is a remarkable tool in many respects, but, for $8K, I'm held back by three things: 

(i) the lack of electronic first curtain shutter, bc I believe that the shutter still degrades the IQ when working at the  shutter speeds common to landscape and related work that I do a lot of, even on the best tripods.  Leaf shutters or EFC solve this. As it is, I fear (though have not tested) that the D810 will be the functional equal of the 645z on many shots. 

(ii) The lack of LS lenses limits usability for location strobe work.I have the 75 and 135 LS lenses, but they are manual focus and require manual re-cocking bw shots - a stop-gap solution at best.

(iii)  Tethering is unproven.  My next camera will be used much more for studio portraiture, and stable, quick, professional tethering is a major want (this one may be checked off when we actually get to try IT2)
 
and

(iv) (this is a bit silly, I know) but I believe there are a couple big announcements in the near offing.  These may include a mirrorless implementation of this chip, as well as the release of Sony's next-gen FF 35mm top-end chip.  I neither need nor want to drop $8K a month before this happens. 

As I said in the first review, the 645z is OH SO CLOSE.

So here's another actual 645z shot, just 'cause.


- N.
 

[ErikKaffehr]

Nick,


Nice picture!

I feel your analysis is point on, just some observations:

I would say that a MF back with live view works well as mirrorless camera, although an electronic viewfinder may be an advantage.

The first electronic curtain would be good on the Pentax. There is an issue I guess that a first electronic curtain needs to be synchronised with a mechanical second one. On MF DSLRs it is less important as they mostly use leaf shutters.

Leaf shutters are an advantage if short sync times are needed for electronic flash.

I am somewhat surprised that we don't have 54 MP technology on full frame 135, as the present 24 MP APS-C technology would give something like 54 MP. Things are similar on the Canon side of the cabin.

But, 46 and 54 MP is rumoured from Sony and those rumors are high probability. My guess is that Sony leaks information as a part of their marketing. Canon is also rumoured to have new technology around 50 MP. So I guess we are going to see around 50 MP cameras announced in something like six months. There are some rumours that the new chips may be of non bayer design.

It wouldn't surprise me to much if Sony would make an MFD back. They have everything need inside at hand, sensor, image processor and display technology. Ricoh could also do it, essentially just removing the camera part of the P645Z. The reason they don't make it is probably that the market is to small, and developing that market would come at significant cost.

On the other hand, the technical camera market seems to be developing, with many manufacturers building cameras and affordable high quality backs would probably be an injection of health in that business.

Best regards
Erik

That's the question indeed.  I could (just) if I really want to. I see much more in 4:3 and square than in 3:2, and have always dislike 35mm DSLRs.  An MF camera is just the right tool for me.  It used to be the Mamiya 6, Fuji 690s and the Hassy V.   I have yet to replicate my love of any of those systems digitaly.

The 645z is a remarkable tool in many respects, but, for $8K, I'm held back by three things: 

(i) the lack of electronic first curtain shutter, bc I believe that the shutter still degrades the IQ when working at the  shutter speeds common to landscape and related work that I do a lot of, even on the best tripods.  Leaf shutters or EFC solve this. As it is, I fear (though have not tested) that the D810 will be the functional equal of the 645z on many shots. 

(ii) The lack of LS lenses limits usability for location strobe work.I have the 75 and 135 LS lenses, but they are manual focus and require manual re-cocking bw shots - a stop-gap solution at best.

(iii)  Tethering is unproven.  My next camera will be used much more for studio portraiture, and stable, quick, professional tethering is a major want (this one may be checked off when we actually get to try IT2)
 
and

(iv) (this is a bit silly, I know) but I believe there are a couple big announcements in the near offing.  These may include a mirrorless implementation of this chip, as well as the release of Sony's next-gen FF 35mm top-end chip.  I neither need nor want to drop $8K a month before this happens. 

As I said in the first review, the 645z is OH SO CLOSE.

So here's another actual 645z shot, just 'cause.


- N.
 

[BernardLanguillier]

It wouldn't surprise me to much if Sony would make an MFD back. They have everything need inside at hand, sensor, image processor and display technology. Ricoh could also do it, essentially just removing the camera part of the P645Z. The reason they don't make it is probably that the market is to small, and developing that market would come at significant cost.

Erik,

My guess is that one key reason they don't do it is that their business model is based on the selling of a full camera system, including lenses.

The margin they make selling the 645Z at the current price point is probably fairly low.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Hulyss]

That's the question indeed.  I could (just) if I really want to. I see much more in 4:3 and square than in 3:2, and have always dislike 35mm DSLRs.  An MF camera is just the right tool for me.  It used to be the Mamiya 6, Fuji 690s and the Hassy V.   I have yet to replicate my love of any of those systems digitaly.

The 645z is a remarkable tool in many respects, but, for $8K, I'm held back by three things: 

(i) the lack of electronic first curtain shutter, bc I believe that the shutter still degrades the IQ when working at the  shutter speeds common to landscape and related work that I do a lot of, even on the best tripods.  Leaf shutters or EFC solve this. As it is, I fear (though have not tested) that the D810 will be the functional equal of the 645z on many shots. 

(ii) The lack of LS lenses limits usability for location strobe work.I have the 75 and 135 LS lenses, but they are manual focus and require manual re-cocking bw shots - a stop-gap solution at best.

(iii)  Tethering is unproven.  My next camera will be used much more for studio portraiture, and stable, quick, professional tethering is a major want (this one may be checked off when we actually get to try IT2)
 
and

(iv) (this is a bit silly, I know) but I believe there are a couple big announcements in the near offing.  These may include a mirrorless implementation of this chip, as well as the release of Sony's next-gen FF 35mm top-end chip.  I neither need nor want to drop $8K a month before this happens. 

As I said in the first review, the 645z is OH SO CLOSE.

So here's another actual 645z shot, just 'cause.


- N.
 

Completely agree with you Nick.

[eronald]

The margin they make selling the 645Z at the current price point is probably fairly low.

Cheers,
Bernard

Isn't it simpler to assume that they make the same standard margin as they would selling any body?
And that Pentax dealers also get the standard sales margin for a camera body?

I mean, if they wanted to, they could price the 645Z at $11K instead of $10K and it wouldn't really impact the *comparative* pricepoint with reference to Phase who are at 3x the Pentax. So as *current* competition is clearly not driving their price, why not assume they have their standard margin factored in?

I would think that when you price a commodity you price with a standard margin because otherwise you create an entry point for the competition who can too easily undercut you, leading to a later price war as you need to lower your price to recover some sales. While when you price a luxury you can price as high as you want until you notice that buyers walk away in disgust.

Edmund

[JV]

AFAIK Sony practically own the camera sensor chip market now. This division has seen huge growth, and is one of Sony's rare profit centers.

Edmund

The Imaging Division of Sony seems to be doing well, some of the other ones as well.

It is the mainly the Mobile business unit that drags everything down.

You can see the figures broken down by business unit here:
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/14q2_sony.pdf

[BJL]

Though I see the appeal of a camera that combines a large CMOS sensor (meaning larger than 36x24mm) with a good EVF, eliminating the vibrations from a big reflex mirror and all that, maybe with these larger format cameras, an inexpensive first step would be offering a good accessory EVF for an existing bigger than 36x24 format SLR system.

I mean, no serious MF photographer tolerates the horrible flat lighting of a hot-shoe mounted flash, so the hot-shoe is available, right?!

P. S. The 645Z could mount an EVF to the extra tripod mount; whichever one is currently on the side, depending on whether the camera is in "landscape" or "portrait" orientation.

[Manoli]

I mean, no serious MF photographer tolerates the horrible flat lighting of a hot-shoe mounted flash, so the hot-shoe is available, right?!

Nope - where would the PocketWizard or similar trigger go ?

[ndevlin]

Though I see the appeal of a camera that combines a large CMOS sensor (meaning larger than 36x24mm) with a good EVF, eliminating the vibrations from a big reflex mirror and all that, maybe with these larger format cameras, an inexpensive first step would be offering a good accessory EVF for an existing bigger than 36x24 format SLR system.

I've actually been wanting to try this with a feed from the HDMI port, which puts out about double the LCD res.  I find the LCD margin from live-view. Not as 100% useless as the 800e, but not great at all.  Not a fix for shutter-vibrations, but perhaps workable for focusing.

- N.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

An EVF combined with an intelligently designed camera and EFCS is pretty vibration free. Also it can have a very short reaction time. Without the EFCS the shutter needs to be closed before exposure.

The second curtain obviously also causes vibrations, but it seems to be much less of a problem.

Best regards
Erik

I've actually been wanting to try this with a feed from the HDMI port, which puts out about double the LCD res.  I find the LCD margin from live-view. Not as 100% useless as the 800e, but not great at all.  Not a fix for shutter-vibrations, but perhaps workable for focusing.

- N.