MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......

[JV]

Regarding MFDB pricing.

All discussions about it end up saying the same things. Should they be cheaper. Hell Yes! Can they be cheaper given the cost of the components? Hell yes!

But it's a Free Market Economy and if the backs did not sell at high prices or were not profitable enough for the manufacturer's (given the relationship between prices and sales volume) they would either not sell them or lower the price. To top it off not all MFDB or Medium Format Digital Manufacturer's operate using the same business model.

They are all different even though some share some similarities.

Pentax Sells their 645z through the same consumer electronics product channels as Canon and Nikon et.al. But unlike Canon and Nikon the Pentax service shines by it's absence, at least in North America.

PhaseOne prefers to work using dealers (although Leaf products are also sold in B&H) that not only sell their products but deal with the service and support. Their products are also more "open source" type and offer lot's of alternatives in regards to Camera, lens and back combinations. They are sold mostly as top of the line professional tools.

Leica works with dealer and also consumer electronic distribution channels (B&H et.al.) and is mostly a closed product (but they do offer great lens adapters for use on their S cameras and we should see more options now that Leica owns Sinar). Leicas are mostly luxury products but the S system really straddles the luxury and professional realm.

And finally Hasselblad, they also somewhat touch the luxury product realm but are mainly sold as tools for profesionals. They are also mostly a closed system although the H4X and H5X cameras open it up a lot. They work with dealers but are also sold in B&H etc.  

Ken,

No offense but positioning Phase One as professional tools and Leica and Hasselblad mostly as luxury products is showing a fair amount of bias...

Best, Joris.

[eronald]

P.s. My 150 is probably older than me and has passed more hands than a Parisian prostitute in the Middle Ages (was cheaper though). My "state of the art" 80mm LS is giving me razor sharp images whenever I use it. What's your "state of the art" canon kit doing, besides gathering dust as you type away furiously in a forum for equipment you don't own?

Synn,

 I think you've watched "The hunchback of Notre Dame" one time too many in your impressionable and formative young years
 As for "state of the art Canon kit", that sounds about as appropriate as "fresh thousand year old egg", my 200/1.8 lens has been out of production for about 15 years, but I would bet that it beats your 150 in a catfight
 I would really like to put my remaining MF gear back to work, but I think I will wait another year or so
 
Edmund

[synn]

While you're at it, would you be a dear and run down to the Chanel HQ and tell them that $5 worth of scented water doesn't need to be sold at $100?

Thanks!

[eronald]

While you're at it, would you be a dear and run down to the Chanel HQ and tell them that $5 worth of scented water doesn't need to be sold at $100?

Thanks!

Synn,

 On reflection, I have no problem with Phase marketing their backs at high prices - I do have a problem with claims their system is "better" than the competition.
 
 As far as I'm concerned, as the joke goes, "It's a Sony".

 BTW, I've seen worse, as ads go.

Edmund

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Those sixteen bits are a marketing lie. To begin with Anders Torger has dissected the Phase One raw files and they are actually 14 bit. That is a good engineering choice however, as the files have only something like 13 bits of usable data. I can try to find a reference.

According to Anders, the Hasselblad files are actually 16 bits.

Best regards
Erik

(I know that I will have some responses from this) but until they can get CMOS to 16-bits per channel I am not interested.  What I love about the P45+ I use is the color and I just do not trust the CMOS sensors at this point to give me that.  Anyway, ISO 200 is the max that I ever need, and from what I can see from my fiancé's IQ 260, ISO 200 is very clean on that system.  (However, I am getting into more resort work and clean high ISOs for night work I could see as being helpful.) 

If Phase can produce a full frame CMOS back with 16-bits per channel that works well with the current line of Rodenstock lenses, that would be a hard back not to consider. 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi Ken,

You are right. Would someone sell digital backs at half the price with good enough technical support there would be a price pressure on Phase One and Hasselblad, but there is little competition except the Pentax 645z or 645d.

Ultimately, the buyer decides the price, it will be the price point that enough customers are willing to pay.

Best regards
Erik

Regarding MFDB pricing.

All discussions about it end up saying the same things. Should they be cheaper. Hell Yes! Can they be cheaper given the cost of the components? Hell yes!

But it's a Free Market Economy and if the backs did not sell at high prices or were not profitable enough for the manufacturer's (given the relationship between prices and sales volume) they would either not sell them or lower the price. To top it off not all MFDB or Medium Format Digital Manufacturer's operate using the same business model.

They are all different even though some share some similarities.

Pentax Sells their 645z through the same consumer electronics product channels as Canon and Nikon et.al. But unlike Canon and Nikon the Pentax service shines by it's absence, at least in North America.

PhaseOne prefers to work using dealers (although Leaf products are also sold in B&H) that not only sell their products but deal with the service and support. Their products are also more "open source" type and offer lot's of alternatives in regards to Camera, lens and back combinations. They are sold mostly as top of the line professional tools.

Leica works with dealer and also consumer electronic distribution channels (B&H et.al.) and is mostly a closed product (but they do offer great lens adapters for use on their S cameras and we should see more options now that Leica owns Sinar). Leicas are mostly luxury products but the S system really straddles the luxury and professional realm.

And finally Hasselblad, they also somewhat touch the luxury product realm but are mainly sold as tools for profesionals. They are also mostly a closed system although the H4X and H5X cameras open it up a lot. They work with dealers but are also sold in B&H etc.  

[eronald]

It may be like cars - room for several products at different price points. And maybe price has little to do with performance, once you're in the top bracket. Frankly, I guess I'd prefer a Porsche to a Rolls Royce

Edmund

Hi Ken,

You are right. Would someone sell digital backs at half the price with good enough technical support there would be a price pressure on Phase One and Hasselblad, but there is little competition except the Pentax 645z or 645d.

Ultimately, the buyer decides the price, it will be the price point that enough customers are willing to pay.

Best regards
Erik

[synn]

I do have a problem with claims their system is "better

Unfortunately for you, the majority of MF buying market disagrees with your PoV; which is why neither Hassy nor Pentax is outselling Phase+Leaf.

[BernardLanguillier]

Unfortunately for you, the majority of MF buying market disagrees with your PoV; which is why neither Hassy nor Pentax is outselling Phase+Leaf.

As far as Pentax not out-selling Phaseone, I'd be very interested in the data source you are relying on to make this surprising claim?

Cheers,
Bernard

[MrSmith]

I believe some bloke called Doug on a forum told him.

[synn]

I have my deepest sympathies for anyone who actually thinks Pentax is outselling phase or blad.

Pentax's camera sales; all of it, is too small that Ricoh classifies them as "others" in their financials. This is the company that did 4 downward revisions on the price of the 645D. While phase continues to maintain their existing pricing models. Even the used backs maintain their pricing and not crash once the magical pentaxes came to be.

I mean, I like how Pentax is taking MF to the masses( or not so much, when you learn what the new lenses cost), but you got to be on another level of wishful thinking if you think they are the market leaders and phase is trailing behind.

[Ken R]

Pentax has several key issues with the 645z.

#1 Service/Repair. Pretty non existent in North America. Cameras need to be sent to Japan for repair. Expect to be 8-10 weeks without the camera.

#2 New Lenses are priced too high (except the 55mm). $4k-$5k. If they wish to draw more people into their system that needs to come down to $2k-$3k.

If they fix those two things I would expect the 645z to have much more of an impact in the MFD market.

[eronald]

Unfortunately for you, the majority of MF buying market disagrees with your PoV; which is why neither Hassy nor Pentax is outselling Phase+Leaf.

What does "selling more" have to do with "better"?
 
Put a 645Z on the table, an H5 and a Phamiya next to it, and you truly can say with a straight face that this antiquated Mamiya P.O.S. is evidently the "best" out of the three *bodies*? 

Edmund

[ndevlin]

The original poster asked an honest question. My best honest answer is I don't think things are necessarily headed the way he thinks.  In particular, there is, imho, little prospect of Phaseone, or anyone, having exclusive access to whatever MF chips is cooking up.

Sony's sensor division is, apparently, mandated to be an independent profit centre, to the extent they gave Nikon their prime 35mm chip ahead of their own manufacture.  This decision can only have been on volume and the profits therefrom.

While Phase has a nice niche convincing people to pay a $28,000+ profit margin on a back, I doubt they can muster the volumes to interest Sony.  

Moreover, it is very unclear that any appreciable number of shooters want back of much more than 50MP.  Very few people need or want these chips.  Not to say some don't, but the numbers are a small, small subset  

On the other hand, it seems likely that a very high MP 35mm chip will be released next year. That will cause much sturm und drang, no doubt.  

The upshot is that the older digital backs are becoming good value. If you want high MPs, get one of those.

Happy shooting.

- N.  

[synn]

Who here is talking about bodies? Why are you shifting goalposts when the discussion was about package solutions?
Can one buy the Pentax body only so that I can use my existing back on it?

When people vote with their wallets, things tend to sell more. This is not news.

[eronald]

Nick,

 Lovely to hear the sweet voice of reason, so seldom heard ...
 Me, watching ebay with interest

Edmund

The original poster asked an honest question. My best honest answer is I don't think things are necessarily headed the way he thinks.  In particular, there is, imho, little prospect of Phaseone, or anyone, having exclusive access to whatever MF chips is cooking up.

Sony's sensor division is, apparently, mandated to be an independent profit centre, to the extent they gave Nikon their prime 35mm chip ahead of their own manufacture.  This decision can only have been on volume and the profits therefrom.

While Phase has a nice niche convincing people to pay a $28,000+ profit margin on a back, I doubt they can muster the volumes to interest Sony.  

Moreover, it is very unclear that any appreciable number of shooters want back of much more than 50MP.  Very few people need or want these chips.  Not to say some don't, but the numbers are a small, small subset  

On the other hand, it seems likely that a very high MP 35mm chip will be released next year. That will cause much sturm und drang, no doubt.  

The upshot is that the older digital backs are becoming good value. If you want high MPs, get one of those.

Happy shooting.

- N.  

[jduncan]

Who here is talking about bodies? Why are you shifting goalposts when the discussion was about package solutions?
Can one buy the Pentax body only so that I can use my existing back on it?

When people vote with their wallets, things tend to sell more. This is not news.

I am not sure any of them is far better. I will say PhaseOne is very good and have the best software, but not necessary is the best solution "in general".
Some times people vote with their wallets because of marketing and distribution.  In the case at hand, Phase One wins at marketing hands down. They also control  most of the forums and the bloggers and reviewers.  Your wallet analogy implies that McDonald's is far "better" than Pret a Manger.
I hope you agree that is not a solid argument.

Best regards,
J. Duncan

A review, he works with PhaseOne and Mamiya/leaf but is far better that we normally see in "MF"  reviews that tend to have a clear agenda: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yGhKDwfD1Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30TWJ8bWGmA

[synn]

I find it laughable that "controlling the forums" leads people to spend 5 figures on a sub par product. At some point of time, they do try it first hand and see if it works for them, you know? I am talking from first hand experience here.


No, I don't see it as McDonald's. Rather, I see it as $400 acer laptop owners passing snide remarks that a MacBook has the same parts that their laptop has. The sum is larger than its parts and that is why the phase ecosystem works for more people than the alternative.

For the record, I am not saying that that Pentax or blad systems are shit. Rather, I am pointing out to the fact that phamiya works for the most number of folks because there is no other manufacturer out there that has such a broad compatibility to the backs they offer as well as a lens line up that goes from $200 to $6000, almost all of them tack sharp.

Pentax and hassy only checks some of those boxes.

[eronald]

Yes, this is the new marketing buzz: The "ecosystem", the "invisibles", the "sum is larger than the parts".

Words trotted out by Apple regularly to justify the pricing of $1000 phones that cost $250 to make.

Of course, Apple have hired the world's most expensive marketers to burn these new memes into the consumer's brains, so it is normal to see other companies now piggyback on this technique.

Edmund

No, I don't see it as McDonald's. Rather, I see it as $400 acer laptop owners passing snide remarks that a MacBook has the same parts that their laptop has. The sum is larger than its parts and that is why the phase ecosystem works for more people than the alternative.

[synn]

Yes, this is the new marketing buzz: The "ecosystem", the "invisibles", the "sum is larger than the parts".

Words trotted out by Apple regularly to justify the pricing of $1000 phones that cost $250 to make.

Of course, Apple have hired the world's most expensive marketers to burn these new memes into the consumer's brains, so it is normal to see other companies now piggyback on this technique.

Edmund

Yes Edmund, people look at the price listing on B&H for Mamiya vs te competition, go back to the forums, listen to all the "buzzwords" and decide that all that extra cash is worth spending. That's exactly how it has worked for the thousands of people who have bought into the phamiya platform.

Don't you have it all figured out!