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Author Topic: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......  (Read 16982 times)

Hank Keeton

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MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« on: October 26, 2014, 10:51:13 am »

After many years of creatively employing my Leaf Aptus-65 on both Sinar & Hassy platforms...it appears that upgrade time will soon arrive.

I'm soliciting input:....impressions...opinions...and such......from anyone interested in sharing.

By mid-2015 I will have met my used-budget-requirements, and will be seriously engaged in shopping.

What 80-mega-pixel backs do you like....dislike.....yearn-for....avoid....etc.....?

Do you have a used-back you want to sell....or know anyone who has one?

We can share publicly...or privately (PM)...as you wish.

I'll enjoy all your responses...offered with honesty and respect.

Warm regards,

Hank
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Paul2660

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Re: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2014, 11:31:00 am »

Hello Hank

I feel that by mid to late 2015 Phase One will announce a full frame CMOS back, 60 to 90MP.  They actually may announce 2, one in the lower MP range, with greater pixel pitch, that "may" be more friendly to current tech lenses.  The other back will be the new MP king, as the 180/280 are now.

This may come out earlier than later, but it seems right now that Phase is working on the new camera body with Sony to replace the DF+, for which I have no interest, as I only use the tech camera in my work.  I know many many others can't wait and I am sure it will be a great solution.

Phase One has their new Alpa partnership so I am sure there will a new Phase One branded tech solution out there also, by early 2015, again as I use Arca, I have no interest here and still find that announcement rather a limiting statement by Phase One.

The next generation may even be superior to what is being seen from the current CMOS 250/150/Credo 50, and those files for my liking are excellent.  The current 50MP Phase has all I really need, but the the 1:3 crop is significant to me, and current upgrades from Phase are not very financially attractive, (from a 260 to 250 or Credo 50).  Actually I seem to prefer the leaf color on the Credo 50, but I don't like the non Value add warranty offerings from Leaf. 

I base the above statement on the results I am seeing from my Nikon D810, which hands down preforms much better than my D800e, in overall DR recovered. 

2015/16 will be exciting, however the elephant in the room is how much will the cost be, to move to the full frame CMOS Phase One backs.  I also don't feel that this round of chip development will have the same access to others, like Pentax or Hasselbald, but that is just my 2 cents worth.

Paul
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Ken R

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Re: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2014, 11:43:27 am »

After many years of creatively employing my Leaf Aptus-65 on both Sinar & Hassy platforms...it appears that upgrade time will soon arrive.

I'm soliciting input:....impressions...opinions...and such......from anyone interested in sharing.

By mid-2015 I will have met my used-budget-requirements, and will be seriously engaged in shopping.

What 80-mega-pixel backs do you like....dislike.....yearn-for....avoid....etc.....?

Do you have a used-back you want to sell....or know anyone who has one?

We can share publicly...or privately (PM)...as you wish.

I'll enjoy all your responses...offered with honesty and respect.

Warm regards,

Hank

If I were buying today for low iso work and exposures up to 30 sec. I would get a IQ160 or a IQ180. They are superb backs with stunning image quality and are the best value today if you want a recent product that does not feel ancient. They are easy to work with. The IQ2xx backs are almost identical, they just add wifi and in the case of the new 50mp CMOS back, they add high iso and long exposure capability but with you will loose some detail compared to the 60/80mp backs and also usability with tech camera systems (the 60mp IQ160 and the IQ260 are probably the best backs ever made for tech camera use, overall). The Leaf Credo counterparts are also great alternatives.

Its best to get in contact with a dealer. They can provide a bunch of great info including raw files of different back/camera/lens combinations. I use DT in NYC (Lance/Doug). They drop by these forums from time to time. Ci also chimes in.

I would not wait for the next best thing. It could take months or years and even then it will most likely be very expensive. Prices have stabilized on used backs as of late so it is a good time to buy.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 11:45:54 am by Ken R »
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eronald

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Re: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2014, 12:01:45 pm »

if Sony releases a new chip, I would expect all players to have access, which means there would be a cheap-ish V-mount version from Hassy that would fit on tech cams, a replacement for the H5D50, and probably a new cheap Pentax in due course. Hassy is sure to market updated products as dev costs are close to zero.


As for a new Phase body, I'm sure new labels can and will be stuck on to the Mamiya.


Edmund
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 12:05:29 pm by eronald »
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Paul2660

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Re: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2014, 12:14:05 pm »

if Sony releases a new chip, I would expect all players to have access, which means there would be a cheap-ish V-mount version from Hassy that would fit on tech cams, a replacement for the H5D50, and probably a new cheap Pentax in due course. Hassy is sure to market updated products as dev costs are close to zero.


As for a new Phase body, I'm sure new labels can and will be stuck on to the Mamiya.


Edmund

You may be surprised on this, or maybe not.  As of the last 3 months, there as been a much closer relationship between Sony and Phase One, which is good as Sony has the technology clearly.

Paul
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eronald

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Re: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2014, 12:28:52 pm »

You may be surprised on this, or maybe not.  As of the last 3 months, there as been a much closer relationship between Sony and Phase One, which is good as Sony has the technology clearly.

Paul

My feeling is that we all have to gain from cheapish Mf eg the $10K hassy back, while Phase wants an elitist model with $30K+ pricing. In reality, there may still be such yield issues with a big chip that sony would go for a single vendor, but i would expect them to be simply allowing Phase access to some special on chip programming like they did for Nikon on the D800 where the chip is used very differently than with the A7R. It is possible that Phase has done a deal with Nikon for access to these features.

Edmund
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Doug Peterson

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Re: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2014, 12:32:33 pm »

My feeling is that we all have to gain from cheapish Mf eg the $10K hassy back, while Phase wants an elitist model with $30K+ pricing.

Team Phase One offers several options between $10-$15k.

Paul2660

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Re: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2014, 12:34:53 pm »

If I were buying today for low iso work and exposures up to 30 sec. I would get a IQ160 or a IQ180. They are superb backs with stunning image quality and are the best value today if you want a recent product that does not feel ancient. They are easy to work with. The IQ2xx backs are almost identical, they just add wifi and in the case of the new 50mp CMOS back, they add high iso and long exposure capability but with you will loose some detail compared to the 60/80mp backs and also usability with tech camera systems (the 60mp IQ160 and the IQ260 are probably the best backs ever made for tech camera use, overall). The Leaf Credo counterparts are also great alternatives.

Its best to get in contact with a dealer. They can provide a bunch of great info including raw files of different back/camera/lens combinations. I use DT in NYC (Lance/Doug). They drop by these forums from time to time. Ci also chimes in.

I would not wait for the next best thing. It could take months or years and even then it will most likely be very expensive. Prices have stabilized on used backs as of late so it is a good time to buy.

Actually as a tech user, and owner of a IQ260, I would tend to disagree that the 260/160 are the best solution.  

The 160 may be a better back than the 260, as I don't really see any advantage to the 260 over the 160.  I feel that the 260, can not come close to the result of a P45+ from 10 minutes out, even in the best conditions.  Excessive noise and stuck pixels make the long exposure mode questionable. I have owned a P45+ and know at 50 for long exposures it can't be beaten still (in MF land).  I had hoped that Phase One would continue to tweak the long exposure results from the 260 with new firmware, but I feel  it's apparent any further tweaking is not going to happen the results are what they are.

The 160/260 still have issues with movements on wides, albeit not as much as the 280.  But it's can be very hard to totally correct a blue sky on a 15mm shift with a 40mm Rodenstock on my 260 without a lot of work.  No more work than it took to work on Guy's images (from getdpi) in his Credo 50 review.  Plus there appears to be a total lack of micro lens ripple which can have a huge effect on the 260 movements, even with a retro focus Rodenstock.   The huge advantage on the Credo is you can just take 3 shots, knowing that you can push the shadows as much as 2.75 stops and still have a great image that holds up at full resolution.  

I have gone back to using sensor plus with my 260 at iso 400 and 200 as the results are just so much better in mixed light.  I have to go vertical and stitch for a single image but it can still be printed quite large.  

Tech cameras with Copol shutters are actually better suited for a CMOS back as you can push CMOS.  Your copol shutter is very limited in available shutter speeds, no 1/3 or 1/2 settings.  The CCD backs would benefit from these extra shutter settings, as many times just a bit more light can make the difference, where as the CMOS can easily handle the fixed shutter speeds of a copol shutter and allow for push.

I also don't see any loss of detail in the CMOS Credo or 250 files, going back to DT's testing, the 250 was superior in details as it has so much less color aliasing, along side of that amazing shadow recovery.

CCD loves light, it's just that simple, when I find conditions that work out, I get good results with the 260, and it can work OK even at iso 200 as long as you are only trying to push shutter speed faster in good light, but forget it in low light.  The files are much more noisy and have much less color retention, and you won't get it back in post, it's gone.  So a windy mixed lighting condition (where I tend to find myself) just is not a great solution for a 260/160 or really any CCD back as you just wont' get the shot.   When you are talking to the dealer, ask for a 1 hour exposure raw file from a 260 or even a 30 minute file,  and see what you think.   Dealers can help here a lot as trying to rent a back is cost prohibitive for many due to insurance issues.  I run a 2 person studio and I still could not get coverage from my policy to cover the rental of a 280 or 250, for 2 days.  

After going through Guy's images (thanks again Guy), I have no doubt that the 250 or Credo 50 is a better solution for my shooting style and I would make the move right now if it was not a 1:3 crop, I would take it for a 1:1.  

Paul

 
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 12:37:40 pm by Paul2660 »
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Paul Caldwell
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Doug Peterson

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Re: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2014, 12:39:11 pm »

I feel that by mid to late 2015 Phase One will announce a full frame CMOS back, 60 to 90MP.  They actually may announce 2, one in the lower MP range, with greater pixel pitch, that "may" be more friendly to current tech lenses.  The other back will be the new MP king, as the 180/280 are now.

This seems unlikely to me.

I would not look for full-frame CMOS from anyone before 2016.

My bet is if/when it comes Phase One will be first to the table as they've been first in medium format to Full Frame CCD (P65+), first to 80mp (IQ180), first to USB3 (IQ1), first to live view on screen (IQ1), and first to ship a modern CMOS back (IQ250)*. But I am, of course, quite biased.

I suspect the IQ180/280 and Credo 80 will be the three kings of high-res single-shot backs for a good while to come.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 12:42:28 pm by Doug Peterson »
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Paul2660

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Re: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2014, 01:03:33 pm »

This seems unlikely to me.

I would not look for full-frame CMOS from anyone before 2016.

My bet is if/when it comes Phase One will be first to the table as they've been first in medium format to Full Frame CCD (P65+), first to 80mp (IQ180), first to USB3 (IQ1), first to live view on screen (IQ1), and first to ship a modern CMOS back (IQ250)*. But I am, of course, quite biased.

I suspect the IQ180/280 and Credo 80 will be the three kings of high-res single-shot backs for a good while to come.

I was not clear on my first post, I don't expect a full frame to be available until 2016, but it may announce in late 2015, but recently Phase has announced and shipped at the same time.  So 2016 it is. 

Paul
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eronald

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Re: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2014, 01:26:23 pm »

It's clearly just a commercial decision; the Sony 50MP MF  chip design is now 3 years old at least, so its successor(s) are probably done.
If Nikon or Canon move to 50MP then Phase/Hassy will have to release ...

Edmund

This seems unlikely to me.

I would not look for full-frame CMOS from anyone before 2016.

My bet is if/when it comes Phase One will be first to the table as they've been first in medium format to Full Frame CCD (P65+), first to 80mp (IQ180), first to USB3 (IQ1), first to live view on screen (IQ1), and first to ship a modern CMOS back (IQ250)*. But I am, of course, quite biased.

I suspect the IQ180/280 and Credo 80 will be the three kings of high-res single-shot backs for a good while to come.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 01:28:44 pm by eronald »
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Hank Keeton

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Re: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2014, 02:45:56 pm »

Thanking you...one-and-all.

Doug, my apologies. I thought you were active on the Large Format forum, where I also posted this inquiry....and there I personally invoked your name!

My intuition is reverberating around the "time-is-ripe" feelings.

Further inputs gladly received...and shopping-focus intensified!

Regards,

Hank
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Ken R

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Re: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2014, 02:51:16 pm »

Paul, Im surprised you could not get insurance coverage. Im a one man operation and when I had to rent a RED Epic rig with Arri Ultra Prime lens set I got insurance no problem for two days (replacement cost was $275,000). My main commercial policy insures $150k worth of gear so it is not a huge policy.  

I agree that for ultra long exposures the p45+ is still king from what I have seen.

Im surprised you have had issues correcting skies on a heavily shifted image with the 40mm HR-W. Ive found no issues with my IQ160 doing that.

From what I have seen so far, in decent light, the 50mp CMOS backs can't touch the 60 and 80mp CCD backs in regards to detail when using tech lenses. Of course, in low light to night conditions the 50mp CMOS pulls ahead. But again as usual, YMMV.  
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eronald

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Re: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2014, 05:45:03 pm »

Team Phase One offers several options between $10-$15k.

Doug,

 A Hassy V back with the latest CMOS sensor seems a bit cheaper -like in Japan about 1/3 price- than the Phase version. Maybe you could explain why?
 
 Actually, I suggest we forget about this - just agree to disagree about the necessity of MF being expensive when Phase competitors Hasselblad and Pentax show every day that it doesn't need to be outrageous.

Edmund
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 05:48:32 pm by eronald »
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Re: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2014, 06:23:15 pm »

(I know that I will have some responses from this) but until they can get CMOS to 16-bits per channel I am not interested.  What I love about the P45+ I use is the color and I just do not trust the CMOS sensors at this point to give me that.  Anyway, ISO 200 is the max that I ever need, and from what I can see from my fiancé's IQ 260, ISO 200 is very clean on that system.  (However, I am getting into more resort work and clean high ISOs for night work I could see as being helpful.) 

If Phase can produce a full frame CMOS back with 16-bits per channel that works well with the current line of Rodenstock lenses, that would be a hard back not to consider. 
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synn

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Re: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« Reply #15 on: October 26, 2014, 06:48:59 pm »

Doug,

 A Hassy V back with the latest CMOS sensor seems a bit cheaper -like in Japan about 1/3 price- than the Phase version. Maybe you could explain why?
 
 Actually, I suggest we forget about this - just agree to disagree about the necessity of MF being expensive when Phase competitors Hasselblad and Pentax show every day that it doesn't need to be outrageous.

Edmund

Edmund, remind me which up to date body that this hassy v back fits on that can use state of the art autofocus lenses?

Have you compared the price of the hasselblad kit that actually does autofocus vs the equivalent leaf kit?
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eronald

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Re: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« Reply #16 on: October 26, 2014, 07:02:10 pm »

Edmund, remind me which up to date body that this hassy v back fits on that can use state of the art autofocus lenses?

Have you compared the price of the hasselblad kit that actually does autofocus vs the equivalent leaf kit?

I don't think "lock in" pricing makes the users happy. Providing value is a better way.
Anyway, my question was directed to Doug - he is a dealer, as far as I know you are a photographer with no influence on pricing.
BTW, how is your "state of the art" 150mm doing?

Edmund
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 07:09:49 pm by eronald »
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Joe Towner

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Re: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« Reply #17 on: October 26, 2014, 07:29:46 pm »

... my fiancé's IQ 260

Good job on connecting with someone who has just as much invested in camera gear as you.  ;D
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synn

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Re: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« Reply #18 on: October 26, 2014, 07:51:44 pm »

I don't think "lock in" pricing makes the users happy. Providing value is a better way.
Anyway, my question was directed to Doug - he is a dealer, as far as I know you are a photographer with no influence on pricing.
BTW, how is your "state of the art" 150mm doing?

Edmund



And this is a public forum. You want only Doug to answer, send him a PM.

Also, I forgot when you were put in charge of answering on MF users' behalf. Afterall, a person who had an MF back for a hiccup, has been lugging around a canon kit ever since and still haunting the MF forums for whatever personal reasons is the perfect spokesperson for MF shooters, right?

P.s. My 150 is probably older than me and has passed more hands than a Parisian prostitute in the Middle Ages (was cheaper though). My "state of the art" 80mm LS is giving me razor sharp images whenever I use it. What's your "state of the art" canon kit doing, besides gathering dust as you type away furiously in a forum for equipment you don't own?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2014, 08:01:27 pm by synn »
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Ken R

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Re: MULTIPLE CMOS RUMORS......
« Reply #19 on: October 26, 2014, 08:13:25 pm »

Regarding MFDB pricing.

All discussions about it end up saying the same things. Should they be cheaper. Hell Yes! Can they be cheaper given the cost of the components? Hell yes!

But it's a Free Market Economy and if the backs did not sell at high prices or were not profitable enough for the manufacturer's (given the relationship between prices and sales volume) they would either not sell them or lower the price. To top it off not all MFDB or Medium Format Digital Manufacturer's operate using the same business model.

They are all different even though some share some similarities.

Pentax Sells their 645z through the same consumer electronics product channels as Canon and Nikon et.al. But unlike Canon and Nikon the Pentax service shines by it's absence, at least in North America.

PhaseOne prefers to work using dealers (although Leaf products are also sold in B&H) that not only sell their products but deal with the service and support. Their products are also more "open source" type and offer lot's of alternatives in regards to Camera, lens and back combinations. They are sold mostly as top of the line professional tools.

Leica works with dealer and also consumer electronic distribution channels (B&H et.al.) and is mostly a closed product (but they do offer great lens adapters for use on their S cameras and we should see more options now that Leica owns Sinar). Leicas are mostly luxury products but the S system really straddles the luxury and professional realm.

And finally Hasselblad, they also somewhat touch the luxury product realm but are mainly sold as tools for profesionals. They are also mostly a closed system although the H4X and H5X cameras open it up a lot. They work with dealers but are also sold in B&H etc.  
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