D300/D700 what are we whining about...why not the D810?

[dwswager]

Assumptions

• Nikon will not release another new DX 'pro' camera.  DX will be for 'Enthusiast' line and down.
• The first 24MP FX 'pro' camera will be a D5.  Why the D750 ended up in the Enthusiast line with the Idiot Dial interface.

I was a long time D300 shooter.  I have long lamented the lack of a D400 in a similar way that D700 shooters have lamented and upgrade for that camera.  I moved from a N90s to the D300 which both had the button interface of the 'pro' line cameras. I finally 'sidegraded' to the D7100 and find the performance pretty good, but handling an issue. 

Given the assumptions above (that might be wrong), there won't be a D300 upgrade of any kind and any D700 update (24MP Pro type camera at a reasonable price point) is probably a long time coming.  Then why is the D800 not a valid upgrade path for you?  I've looked at the specs (some below) and realistically, the D810 will work for me. 

• It's a little heavier than D300, but lighter than the D700
• It's about the same size as both, though a little thicker with the grip
• It gives 5fps at 36MP and 6fps at 15.6MP
• At 3299 it is significantly more expensive than the $2499 D300 in 2007, but adjusted for inflation not too bad.
• It gives me 6fps in DX mode at 15MPs in a size and weight similar to the D300.  For D700 shooters, wh
  And there are a raft of other improvements rolled in.

[BernardLanguillier]

The D810 is really an incredible camera. Having owned a D3 I know how sweet a camera the D3/D700 were/are, but the D810 is far ahead in pretty much everything it does except frame rate.

Now if you shoot mostly for the web or don't print larger than A4/A3 often, then keep the D700 by all means.

Cheers,
Bernard

[PhotoEcosse]

Yep.

I was a late convert from film to digital and my first dSLR was a D80. "Upgrade" path was:

D80 - D300 - D3s - (upgrade/downgrade to) - D800 - D800 + D800E - D800E + D810.

The cameras just keep getting better, especially in terms of dynamic range, high-ISO performance and Raw quality. The new "Highlights Priority" metering mode on the D810 is staggeringly effective.

(The reason I "downgraded" from a D3s to a D800 was the combination of excessive bulh/weight of the D3s and the irresistible lure of 36Mp.)

[dwswager]

I will revise this now.

Having shot the D810 and D7100 side by side in a complimentary fashion, not as backup, I can say I lament the lack of a D300 upgrade even more.  I think Nikon made the foolish assumption that DX was for consumers and low end enthusiasts and FX was for Pros and higher end enthusiasts.  That might have been true in the older days when raw pixel size was the clear determining factor for image quality.  At similar pixel count, the DX sensors just couldn't compete.  Now, with the much higher pixel counts of both sensors sizes and technology advances there can be image quality benefits to DX over FX.  In addition the DOF benefit and more pixels on target you can achieve with DX gives it an edge is certain situations.

I would (almost) give my left testicle for a D400 that included:

24MPs
8 fps at 14bit NEF
Buffer size to hold 32-40 14bit NEF
D810 'pro' style button interface body w/ similar sealing and durability

I sold the D7100 and am looking to purchase a D7200.  Sure 2 months after, the D400 will be announced!

Assumptions

• Nikon will not release another new DX 'pro' camera.  DX will be for 'Enthusiast' line and down.
• The first 24MP FX 'pro' camera will be a D5.  Why the D750 ended up in the Enthusiast line with the Idiot Dial interface.

I was a long time D300 shooter.  I have long lamented the lack of a D400 in a similar way that D700 shooters have lamented and upgrade for that camera.  I moved from a N90s to the D300 which both had the button interface of the 'pro' line cameras. I finally 'sidegraded' to the D7100 and find the performance pretty good, but handling an issue. 

Given the assumptions above (that might be wrong), there won't be a D300 upgrade of any kind and any D700 update (24MP Pro type camera at a reasonable price point) is probably a long time coming.  Then why is the D800 not a valid upgrade path for you?  I've looked at the specs (some below) and realistically, the D810 will work for me. 

• It's a little heavier than D300, but lighter than the D700
• It's about the same size as both, though a little thicker with the grip
• It gives 5fps at 36MP and 6fps at 15.6MP
• At 3299 it is significantly more expensive than the $2499 D300 in 2007, but adjusted for inflation not too bad.
• It gives me 6fps in DX mode at 15MPs in a size and weight similar to the D300.  For D700 shooters, wh
  And there are a raft of other improvements rolled in.

[stamper]

Speaking as the owner of a broken D300 I fully feel your anguish. I have the D700 & D600 but still grieving over the death of the D300.

[Jack Hogan]

Sure 2 months after, the D400 will be announced!

Don't bet on it.  Nikon's DX lens lineup has been mostly recycled FF designs, which look less and less adequate as time goes by in light of aggressive, format-specific competition (eg mFT, 1 series).

On the other hand their efforts have gone into FF, as observed in the slew of newer, smaller, lighter lenses introduced in the last 12 months alone in that format.  In the end as far as the body is concerned it's all about buttons and the ever shrinking pixel pitch: In a D300 context, smaller pitch = more reach but slower FPS for action.  Buttons you have several options for in FF; and where a manufacturer places the sensor with the smaller pixel pitch is a matter of strategy, keeping in mind that with FF you also get a DX camera (mode) thrown in for free.  When the market is putting a squeeze on you (camera manufacturers) options is what you want.  FF gives lots of options.  DX looks stuck in the middle.

What Nikon has been doing is classic portfolio strategy: milk DX, invest in FF  - and possibly, half heartedly, the 1 series.  Half heartedly I think because the birding market is not big enough to splurge.  However those 1" sensors and lenses are (almost) getting to the point where they could capture the moving soccer ball and player just fine at 600mm equivalent after sundown...

Jack

[MarkL]

I think part of the problem is that the D700 appealed to such a wide audience and subsequent models are more polarising so everyone saw something different in a replacement. Shooting fashion with contrasty light I was glad to see the back of mine once I saw my first D800E RAWs but photographers who didn't want big files, sports and wildlife people that needed higher fps and wedding/event people that wanted the best high iso there was were disappointed.

[Chuck Fan]

I think it was simply not sustainable for Nikon to maintain two complete lines of DSLRs and lenses that were, admit it, pretty close to each other in the grand scheme of things.   Sooner or later they had to focus on one DSLR line, and either let the other line die a natural death, or dramatically transforming that line that that it is no longer a near duplicate of the first.

Back around 2002, it looked to me like Nikon had begun to bet the future was with DX, and started focusing on DX bodies and releasing top end lenses in DX.  Then, possibly due to success of Canon's FX DSLRs, Nikon decided to better hedged its bets by returning to the FX market and then, with the success of D700, began to emphasize FX over DX.

It makes sense to emphasize FX over DX because DX lens line is not upwards compatible with FX, while FX line is downward compatible with DX.  But once Nikon started to focus on FX and let DX benefit by trickle down,  DX loses major part of the only big advantage it has over FX, which is compactness.   So I think DX DSLR line will just fade into the background.    

I personally think Nikon ought to pivot, and begin to think about converting the DX line into a more differentiated product from the FX DSLR line.   I think one good future for the DX line would be in the mirrorless world.    DX can be a more compact, video optimized, mirrorless line.

[Rob C]

Guess it all depends what you need from your photographic gear, rather than what you imagine you might need from it.

My first digital camera was a D200 and then I bought a D700. I still own both, and you know what, I find myself using the old D200 most of the time. For a combination of reasons: I don't/won't cart tripods around anymore; I feel the D700 feels heavier to walk around with, and I am down to using a single lens, a 50mm, most of the time. On the D200 it gives me standoff that I find suits me better than the same focal lenght on the D700. As I feel a more natural affinity with black/white and can't get the delights of grain out of my mind, the smaller option satisfies most of my reality.

Whilst the HP B 9180 was still alive, either camera gave me b/w A3+ prints that were impossible to ascribe to any particular body; both were damned pleasing.

If there's one shortcoming that hits the D200 and certainly never the D700, its the ability to shoot in very low light. Caught me out today in fact: saw a grab shot of two women standing inside a gloomy clothes shop and holding up a dress on a hanger; I was on auto-ISO which I use a lot these days, and as I have its max. set relatively low because of the current summer light and my dislike of the thing at its highest levels, by the time I realised it wasn't the D700, the moment had passed, the shot taken, and I was left cursing what I'd done. I suppose I'll still wangle something that I like from it, but I'll know it wasn't as I'd wanted.

I often think that regarding cameras, too much is in the mind rather than in the reality. It can be stupidly expensive.

Rob

[NancyP]

Supposedly, birding is the 15th most common outdoor activity, according to a National Forest Service survey.  85 million US birders. How many are serious? Who knows, but 18 million take trips for birding or participate in the Christmas count or other citizen-participation bird population surveys. How many are dedicated photographers? With the advent of the new Tamron and Sigma zoom lenses with IS, birding with supertelephoto lenses is pretty affordable and not painful. (Learning to shoot supertelephoto lenses without image stabilization may be too discouraging for some, although as an old fart, I knew I would have a steep learning curve with an old lens and accepted this.)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/01/02/birding-sport-big-year-citizen-science/4261529/

I have used a Canon 60D and EF 400mm f/5.6L for birding, I just got the 7D2 unboxed and am working through the manual, hope to take it for a spin this weekend. (After I upgrade my computer operating system to be able to take the current Adobe DNG converter or Canon DPP that handles 7D2 files - I am stuck back in OS X 10.6.8 Snow Leopard, a very stable OS I have been reluctant to leave).

I think that Nikon may be missing a market here. Canon, of course, doesn't have the D810 grade sensor, in terms of dynamic resolution, so it is missing a market too.

[dwswager]

I think that Nikon may be missing a market here. Canon, of course, doesn't have the D810 grade sensor, in terms of dynamic resolution, so it is missing a market too.

Canon doesn't compete on sensor technology, but Nikon isn't competing in the area of DX professional level cameras by choice (and a damn stupid one at that)!

The D7200 will do 7fps in 1.3x crop mode, but 6fps in DX 12 bit RAW and 5fps in 14bit RAW.  But we know the processor and Expeed4 can handle more.  Hence, they artificially limited it to lesser capability.

Make no mistake, Nikon could package the guts of the D7200 into a smaller version of the D810 body that would shoot 8fps or more (assuming the data pathways and mirror/shutterbox they put in support it). 

I am absolutely convinced that Nikon either believes that higher end enthusiasts and professionals only want FX sensors or they think they are protecting sales of the D4s when in fact they are driving consumers to the Canon 7DmkII.

[Jack Hogan]

Supposedly, birding is the 15th most common outdoor activity, according to a National Forest Service survey.  85 million US birders. How many are serious? Who knows, but 18 million take trips for birding or participate in the Christmas count or other citizen-participation bird population surveys.

Hope Nikon is reading this

Enjoy the 7DII, looks fantastic for action/birds.

Jack

[TwistedShadow]

The first 24MP FX 'pro' camera will be a D5

This is an old thread but doesn't the Nikon D3x come with a 24mp sensor?