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Author Topic: Epson V850 scanner  (Read 35434 times)

Mark D Segal

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Re: silverFast 8
« Reply #40 on: November 05, 2014, 07:47:49 pm »

Not quite sure of your drift in this instance? I've been testing software both as a photographer and my previous career in HCI research for quite some time.

I tried it with quite a few films/slides and it just didn't 'click' with me. It's the bundled software and I'm primarily looking at the scanner (which works just fine with the Epson s/w) so I'm disinclined to go into it in great detail. 

Still worth a try though... I've no personal or business interest in whether people use it or not



Hi Keith, I think we agree there is a definite personal element in the choice of software, but if one wants to discuss it objectively, that opens up whole other dimensions; that's all I was getting at. But you're reviewing a scanner, so as I said, probably OT. And I do respect your experience reviewing stuff - I read many of your reviews and appreciate them.

Cheers,

Mark
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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artobest

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Re: Epson V850 scanner
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2014, 09:24:10 am »

I thought so.

No-one can tell anybody else what's worthwhile spending their money on - totally personal decision; but at the same time you may wish to review in your own mind the wisdom of passing judgment in public about products that have have been replaced with fully new versions that are totally re-designed and re-engineered from what they used to be. At the very least, if you want to pass judgment and be relevant, do it for relevant product; you can easily update your knowledge of the product and your opinion about it by downloading free trials before you spend a cent on it. Then you'll be in a better position to know whether the upgrade cost is worthwhile to you or not.

Jeez Mark, so sensitive. Reread my comment and you'll see I'm actually recommending Silverfast - with reservations. I won't upgrade because, as I understand it, the new version a) still doesn't adhere to Windows UI standards, so would need further pointless effort to master; and b) there's little or no increase in image quality (indeed, I can't see how they could engineer that).
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson V850 scanner
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2014, 09:49:53 am »

Jeez Mark, so sensitive. Reread my comment and you'll see I'm actually recommending Silverfast - with reservations. I won't upgrade because, as I understand it, the new version a) still doesn't adhere to Windows UI standards, so would need further pointless effort to master; and b) there's little or no increase in image quality (indeed, I can't see how they could engineer that).

I'm not the least bit sensitive and whether or not you recommend any particular brand of software is for me completely unimportant. I was making a comment about relevance.

As for adherence to standards, I would be very surprised if their Windows versions don't adhere to Windows standards - they or Windows users can speak for that if they wish; I use a Mac, so I don't know, and it all works fine on my Mac - both Snow Leopard and Mavericks.

I don't know what aspects of image quality you're expecting from scanner software versus other software that can also be used for certain purposes, so I don't know what to make of that comment. But you are right about one thing at least - quality can't be engineered if it is constrained right from the original media or if the scanner itself has limitations that can't deliver what the media can offer. Lots of links in this chain with one thing constrained by another, so one needs to be quite precise regarding what one is talking about.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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HomoSapiensWannaBe

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Re: Epson V850 scanner
« Reply #43 on: November 12, 2014, 07:12:57 pm »

Mark,
Thanks for the recent LuLa article about Camera/Macro based techniques for scanning negatives.  You indicated that you plan to review a V850 and compare the quality/workflow to the Camera/Macro based technique.  I look forward to that.

Since 1978, I have thousands of 35mm slides, B&W & color negs.  I also have over a thousand APS color negs in those little 25 & 40 exposure cannisters (yikes!). 

I have been putting off this project for a long while because I'm not sure of the best solution.  Also, I dread the work!  Winter is coming and this is as good a time as any for such tedium.

I am intrigued by the new Epson scanners and was considering purchasing one before your recent article appeared.  If I go that route, I will choose the V800 or V850 depending on the total package cost after upgrading Silverfast to the full studio version and getting extra 35mm slide and negative holders.  I don't need the extra set of larger format holders included with the V850. 

I also have a Nikon D600, SB-910 flash and off-camera cord, but no macro lens or slide/negative holders.  The macro route is appealing because a macro lens will be useful beyond the scanning project, and the quality/control/time factor may be superior anyway (24mp raw files).  At this time, I only use Lightroom for post-processing.

The APS negatives contain important family photos during my two kids' formative years.   I want to do them justice, but maybe I should just scan the original prints and be done with it?

Or, I can procrastinate another few years...  Ha Ha!  ;D

At any rate, I look forward to your review and comparison of the Epson V800/850 to the Camera/Macro method.

Ken
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson V850 scanner
« Reply #44 on: November 12, 2014, 07:37:19 pm »

Hi HSWB,

The Epson 800/850 is available for pre-order but not on the market yet, at least in North America, as far as I can tell (mainly looking at the B&H website). If you don't have an appropriate macro lens, and depending on what you would get, the cost can easily exceed the cost of the scanner, and you may need some set-up gear, so if you;re financially greenfield on both options, I wouldn't expect a major economic advantage of the one route over the other. Use of time is another matter, and here's where it gets a bit tricky. The Epson 850 will have holders that can mount 3*6 photo strips of film, so 18 photos per frame. In SilverFast, with its batch scanning and job manager capabilities, the productivity of digitizing batches of photos at a time is pretty good. With the camera scanning, it's true that it's only a click, not a scan pass, but you do need to line up each frame under the lens properly before making that click - so faster probably, but how much faster - remains to be tested. I haven't conducted this horse-race - yet; but may, as there is some interest in productivity. I may be having much more to say about all this "in the fulness of time", and comparing options is on the agenda. Stay tuned. One thing I can definitely advise you as of now: as long as you have the negatives, DO NOT waste your time scanning the prints. The prints are already heavily degraded relative to what you'll get from film scans even before you start any post scan editing.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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HomoSapiensWannaBe

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Re: Epson V850 scanner
« Reply #45 on: November 13, 2014, 12:33:20 am »

Mark,
Thanks for your prompt and informative reply.

For the APS negatives, I figure I'll have to cut them into strips, and alignment will probably be an issue.

Cheers,
Ken
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keith_cooper

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Re: Epson V850 scanner
« Reply #46 on: November 13, 2014, 05:21:54 am »

For the APS negatives, I figure I'll have to cut them into strips, and alignment will probably be an issue.
Just an option ...
If you can find a used Canon FS4000, it came with a motorised APS film loader - I never used APS but did scan some film for a friend with it. IIRC it is supported from Vuescan
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artobest

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Re: Epson V850 scanner
« Reply #47 on: November 13, 2014, 05:40:50 am »


Since 1978, I have thousands of 35mm slides, B&W & color negs.  I also have over a thousand APS color negs in those little 25 & 40 exposure cannisters (yikes!). 


Ken, if the majority of your work is in smaller formats (ie 35mm or smaller) I'd strongly recommend against the Epson scanners and suggest you buy a specialist film scanner instead - perhaps one of the Reflecta/Prime Film models. The Epson is fiddly as hell for film strips and the results for 35mm fall short of those from a good, purpose-built film scanner with good software (I'd suggest Silverfast, others like Vuescan).

The big Epson scanners really shine with larger materials.
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HomoSapiensWannaBe

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Re: Epson V850 scanner
« Reply #48 on: November 13, 2014, 10:04:01 am »

Thanks everyone.  The plot thickens!
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson V850 scanner
« Reply #49 on: November 13, 2014, 10:08:18 am »

Mark,
Thanks for your prompt and informative reply.

For the APS negatives, I figure I'll have to cut them into strips, and alignment will probably be an issue.

Cheers,
Ken


Hi Ken,

Not clear alignment would be an issue. Here's a link that may give you some hope and there are other sites discussing this problem. The key to productivity would be framing the photos correctly for the scan. You may wish to contact SilverFast tech support and ask whether the application's "find Frames" algorithm would work for automatically framing the image dimensions of that film (I don't have that film size, otherwise I would test it for you; but manual framing any odd-ball image size is very easy, just by clicking on a frame corner and dragging it to fit). Another test issue would be whether the film could be held flat enough in the 35mm frame holders Epson will be supplying with that scanner. To see this, you would have to open one of those canisters, unravel the film and try it in a shop. Flattening the film first would probably help, but that will be a risky and time-consuming procedure. Glass mounting film strips is another option. Doing this with film cleaner is a lot less messy and easier than using mounting fluid, but again would need to be tested to see whether it would hold long enough on the glass to be useful.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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greggan12

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aaronchan

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Re: Epson V850 scanner
« Reply #51 on: January 28, 2015, 07:35:39 am »

Some interesting findings on the medium format film holder of the V850 / V800


This is not interesting at all, because I do have the same problem with my GT-X980 (V800) as well, which drives me crazy!

aaron

greggan12

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Re: Epson V850 scanner
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2015, 02:09:25 am »

The interesting thing is that there is indications that Epson finally have been considering to redesign the holders.
Until that will happen I will make a writeup and D.I.Y tutorial of how to tweak/mod the holders to become usable.

/S
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keithcooper

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V850 directly compared to a number of other scanners
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2015, 05:01:24 am »

After I'd written up the review of the V850, one on the people on my Digital B&W LinkedIn list (Stefan Ohlsson) kindly offered to scan one of the negatives I'd use in the review on a V750, and Imacon 949 and a Heidelberg Tango.

I've included 100% crops of these images, along with the V850 and my old Canon FS4000 in a short followup article that may be of interest.

http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/scanner/scan-compare.html

It's not meant to be a rigorous quantitative comparison - hope its of some interest to people who wondered about how scans compared?
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stevebri

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Re: Epson V850 scanner
« Reply #54 on: February 27, 2015, 02:34:52 am »

Guys,guys,guys...

Firstly thank you Mark for what is a very detailed and time consuming report... Epson owe you big time I believe...

My question is looking at this from another perspective, and i must add that I was a former V750 owner, and I had Doug's great scan holder kit (saved so much time thx Doug) I usede Silverfast and Vuescan.

However...  ScanCafe charge 22c US to scan a neg or slide (35mm)..
By the time you add on the Silverfast upgrade AND the target color card (from experience there is no better way to nail colour management on the Epsons)..  It it worth buying a scanner at all...?

Ok many variables linked to that question;

How big is your archive?
What format are your files (35mm, 120, 5x4, 10x8... neg, chrome etc)
How dust free is your workspace
How's your dexterity..? (how good are you with your hands..? brain surgeon good or do fiddly things (smartphone) annoy you?).

All of these things play a significant role in the cost/time equation of DIY scanning.

Furthermore, from your archive, how many are you really going to work on and print/upload/sell ...?

Additionally how are you going to intergrate these files into your normal RAW workflow and software, particularly colour negs...?


I'm very interested in hearing what this rich forum can offer as to peoples choices, opinions and experience.

Personally I got half of my archive scanned by a company(as a case study really) and then edited them down in LR, tweaked them, cleaned them up and printed/uploaded/sold the best ones...  Of that first 50% or so less than 5% see the light of day, what was more important (comforting) I think, was that my earlier work was digitized and on a couple of hard drives.  Any real cracking shots that had a future purpose were then scanned on a film scanner for maximum quality.

One final question...

Has anyone scanned a Passport Colorchecker target and made a DNG profile instead of buying the Silverfast one..? Colour is colour right...?

Steve
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Epson V850 scanner
« Reply #55 on: February 27, 2015, 03:17:05 am »

Hi Steve,

Given the vast difference between users of scanners, and uses of the scans, it's hard to generalize.

For low volume/large format (film), the current V7.xx/V8.xx series scanners offer a useful solution. Dedicated scanners for film, will usually give better results, but the availability of such devices is getting problematic. I agree that there is somewhat of a learning curve involved, and working in a clean environment helps, but that hasn't changed for decades.

One final question...

Has anyone scanned a Passport Colorchecker target and made a DNG profile instead of buying the Silverfast one..? Colour is colour right...?

I'm not a DNG user, I use a different Raw converter, so DNG profiles are not my main interest. However, I did scan a ColorChecker SG on my V700, and profiled it with i1Profiler and use that profile in VueScan for reflective scans with relatively good result. VueScan also allows to produce profiles for films, for which a scanner target is available (from Wolf Faust).

These types of targets allow much more accurate profile generation than possible with a 24 patch target, for scan applications that allow to use ICC profiles, e.g. VueScan. Reprofiling is necessary with the aging of the lightsource of the scanner, and tweaking of the scanned results is necessary due to variability in film stock and aging/archiving conditions.

Cheers,
Bart
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greggan12

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Re: Epson V850 scanner
« Reply #56 on: February 27, 2015, 08:24:30 am »

My solution and modifuications of the Epson V850 film holders.
http://www.stockholmviews.com/epson_v850/epsonV850tweaks.html
Enjoy ;D
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AFairley

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Re: Epson V850 scanner
« Reply #57 on: February 27, 2015, 11:52:57 am »


Has anyone scanned a Passport Colorchecker target and made a DNG profile instead of buying the Silverfast one..? Colour is colour right...?

If memory serves, I tried this by converting a NEF (which is actually a TIFF in a NEF wrapper and not a true raw file) from a NikonCoolscan to DNG, but it would not open as such in the Adobe DNG Profile Editor which apparently only recognizes DNGs from true raw files.

On a related note, I also tried to create a DNG profile from a DSLR shot of a Kodachrome slide of a Colorchecker, but the Profile Editor gagged on that too.  Turns out the color shift varied from light to dark (i.e., if you white balance the light grey patch, the dark grey patch would not have equal RGB values) which was beyond the software's capability.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Epson V850 scanner
« Reply #58 on: February 27, 2015, 09:33:04 pm »

Guys,guys,guys...

Firstly thank you Mark for what is a very detailed and time consuming report... Epson owe you big time I believe...

My question is looking at this from another perspective, and i must add that I was a former V750 owner, and I had Doug's great scan holder kit (saved so much time thx Doug) I usede Silverfast and Vuescan.

However...  ScanCafe charge 22c US to scan a neg or slide (35mm)..
By the time you add on the Silverfast upgrade AND the target color card (from experience there is no better way to nail colour management on the Epsons)..  It it worth buying a scanner at all...?

Ok many variables linked to that question;

How big is your archive?
What format are your files (35mm, 120, 5x4, 10x8... neg, chrome etc)
How dust free is your workspace
How's your dexterity..? (how good are you with your hands..? brain surgeon good or do fiddly things (smartphone) annoy you?).

All of these things play a significant role in the cost/time equation of DIY scanning.

Furthermore, from your archive, how many are you really going to work on and print/upload/sell ...?

Additionally how are you going to intergrate these files into your normal RAW workflow and software, particularly colour negs...?


I'm very interested in hearing what this rich forum can offer as to peoples choices, opinions and experience.

Personally I got half of my archive scanned by a company(as a case study really) and then edited them down in LR, tweaked them, cleaned them up and printed/uploaded/sold the best ones...  Of that first 50% or so less than 5% see the light of day, what was more important (comforting) I think, was that my earlier work was digitized and on a couple of hard drives.  Any real cracking shots that had a future purpose were then scanned on a film scanner for maximum quality.

One final question...

Has anyone scanned a Passport Colorchecker target and made a DNG profile instead of buying the Silverfast one..? Colour is colour right...?

Steve

Thank you Steve, I'm pleased you appreciated the review.

Yes, Scancafe etc is a reasonable solution under the conditions you describe. But what you order or can get from them needs to be related to the purposes of the scanning - resolution and bit depth of files appropriate to your final output requirements. I have seen results from one or two of these services and compared apples to apples with DIY scanning, they're OK.

A really rapid approach to digitizing and culling archives for the selects on which you want to focus is to use the Epson V750/850 with SilverFast in batch scan mode, and batch scan the media at low res 8 bit per channel for speed, then open the results in Photo Mechanic, which is second to none for viewing, sorting, culling and entering metadata into image files. Then take your selects as you see them in Photo Mechanic, go back to the film scanner and create high quality/high res scans to the extent appropriate to your needs.

As for negatives, I've written a fair bit on this website about good approaches for scanning colour negatives. As well, if you saw my Camera Scanning article on this website, that subject is treated extensively there too, but "scanning" with a camera instead of a scanner. This is also good for speedy workflow and the workflows in that article produce convincing results.

Cheers,

Mark
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

stevebri

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Re: Epson V850 scanner
« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2015, 03:42:30 pm »

Hi Mark,

Yes I'm with you on the 'quick scan-edit-re scan' approach, it's just I had scan cafe do the quick scans...!

I will go back and read your colour neg scan article again but like you I seem to remember 'photographing' mine and creating a reverse profile in LR, it wasn't perfect but gave enough for me to make a decision wrt editing. Luckily I seldom shot colour neg...

One irk I found with earlier versions of Silverfast was that it treated Ilford XP film like TRi-X and Neopan... it gave it grain...!!!!  I used XP for many reasons one being how smooth it was...

Thanks again.

Steve
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