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Author Topic: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.  (Read 12573 times)

jerome_m

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Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« on: October 13, 2014, 12:09:55 pm »

Here an image taken with the HCD 24 and the HTS on an H4D-50. 11.5mm shift to the top. There are some elements on the top right corner for your pixel peeping pleasure.


Infineon Campeon technology park, Munich.


Full resolution here.
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Ken R

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Re: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2014, 08:13:18 pm »

Here an image taken with the HCD 24 and the HTS on an H4D-50. 11.5mm shift to the top. There are some elements on the top right corner for your pixel peeping pleasure.


Infineon Campeon technology park, Munich.


Full resolution here.

Image quality looks good. Although at $12,500 the 24mm lens and HTS combination is well into tech camera price territory. For less money one can get a tech camera body, adapter plate for back, cables and a stunning 35mm Schneider XL Digitar lens. That combination will produce much better results.

Of course the 24mm lens by itself is much wider and the HTS might be more convenient to use rather than a different camera system for a Hasselblad H system owner.
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synn

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Re: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2014, 08:36:56 pm »

Nice results.
The 24mm becomes an effective 35mm with the HTS, right?
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jerome_m

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Re: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« Reply #3 on: October 14, 2014, 02:37:53 am »

The 24mm becomes an effective 35mm with the HTS, right?

Yes, it does. The HTS includes a x1.5 converter.
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jerome_m

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Re: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« Reply #4 on: October 14, 2014, 04:55:54 am »

Image quality looks good. Although at $12,500 the 24mm lens and HTS combination is well into tech camera price territory. For less money one can get a tech camera body, adapter plate for back, cables and a stunning 35mm Schneider XL Digitar lens. That combination will produce much better results.

I am not so sure that the Schneider would produce "much better" results. A quick search on this forum and the competing getdpi forum shows that Schneider Digitar 35 users complain about fuzzy corners when shifted 10mm, magenta shifts, enormous falloff only partially mitigated by the additional center filter, etc... Also: the few published samples are not directly comparable, since they were taken on 39 mpix back. This is a 50 mpix back and therefore a stronger strain on the optics.

I would be interested to see a direct comparaison.
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torger

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Re: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2014, 06:57:26 am »

I am not so sure that the Schneider would produce "much better" results. A quick search on this forum and the competing getdpi forum shows that Schneider Digitar 35 users complain about fuzzy corners when shifted 10mm, magenta shifts, enormous falloff only partially mitigated by the additional center filter, etc... Also: the few published samples are not directly comparable, since they were taken on 39 mpix back. This is a 50 mpix back and therefore a stronger strain on the optics.

I would be interested to see a direct comparaison.

The SK35 got a bit bad reputation because Dalsa 6um sensors don't handle it well for larger shifts. The Kodak sensors does it better, so Hasselblad 39 and 50 megapixel backs should work very well with the sensor concerning color cast, but all tech wides does require LCC correction. It should not be any bad cast with the Kodaks.

Concerning sharpness the comparison again is Rodenstock Digaron-W, often the 32, which is indeed on yet a sharper level than the SK35 when it comes to shifted positions. On center the SK35 is extremely sharp.

Tech camera users are generally the most insane people you can find concerning being picky about sharpness, so don't take it too seriously when you hear us complain without seeing an example first.

On Dalsa 6um or smaller (IQ160/IQ180) the SK35 should not be used with large shifts at all (too severe casts/crosstalk), on larger pixel sensor and Kodak 50 megapixel you can use it unrestricted in the whole 90mm image circle, but you want center filter. On center and small shifts f/11 is the optimal aperture and then it's as sharp as any Digaron. For large shifts if corner sharpness is important to you, you should shoot at f/16. Added bonus with the symmetrical design is that it's almost distortion-free.

I've attached a 100% crop of a detail from my 7.2um pixel back (33 megapixel, that is a bit lower res than the 6um 50 megapixel in your test) with the SK35 shifted about 12mm, shot at f/16. I could have sharpened more, the render is just a conservative standard setting out of RawTherapee. You do see some trace of chromatic abberation on the cross and it's a little blurrier in the center, but still quite okay. Note that the difference between 7.2um and 6um pixels is not too large when you pixel peep, only 20% difference along the side. You can find SK35 samples with 6um pixels on the web, problem is that I don't think I've found a single one that is shot at something else than f/11 and a Dalsa, and for larger shifts and if you value corner sharpness it's better to step up to f/16, and of course Dalsa 6um get issues with crosstalk unlike the Kodak 6um.

Added a second crop which is from a position which corresponds to edge of 20 mm shift up of a horizontal 49x37mm sensor. Here the picture is starting to get a bit worried and smeared.

A more direct comparison to the HTS would of course be better, with some very fine detailed high contrast structure at the shifted edges. I'm quite sure that the SK35 will be markedly better and also with lower distortion, but if it matters in real image making is another question. If you predominantly shoot with the H system it can be nice to stay with one system. I do have samples from an H3DII-50 shot on SK35 and SK28 with extreme shifts and the result is in line with my own crops, but as it's not my pictures I can't publish crops from that. Hasselblad 50 megapixel backs are unique in that by being both high MP and playing well with the two SK wides 28 and 35 with larger shifts, and compared to other MF wide angle solutions it's probably the best price/performance you can come by.

The most demanding tech users would use the Rodenstock Digaron-W 32 which performs markedly better than the SK35 concerning sharpness in shifted positions, but is on the other hand much more expensive and not distortion-free.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2014, 08:12:39 am by torger »
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jerome_m

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Re: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« Reply #6 on: October 14, 2014, 11:42:45 am »

I guess we would really need a direct comparison to know for sure how large the difference between the lenses is. The HTS system has the advantage that all corrections are automatic: one drops the raw image in Phocus and that program gets the lens type, the amount of tilt and/or shift and directly corrects distortion, vignetting and chromatic aberration.
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torger

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Re: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« Reply #7 on: October 14, 2014, 12:23:13 pm »

Yes it would indeed be an interesting test. Tech cams due to the lack of exif integration don't have any automatic lens corrections. The HTS will surely narrow the gap due to that.
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Ken R

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Re: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« Reply #8 on: October 14, 2014, 01:28:32 pm »

Yes it would indeed be an interesting test. Tech cams due to the lack of exif integration don't have any automatic lens corrections. The HTS will surely narrow the gap due to that.

True.

Even so I see some nasty CA and softness in the corners in the shot posted with the 24 and HTS. My 40mm HR-W is pin sharp in those areas and clean with just an LCC.
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jerome_m

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Re: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« Reply #9 on: October 14, 2014, 04:13:28 pm »

My 40mm HR-W is pin sharp in those areas and clean with just an LCC.

Could you post some samples, please?
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Ken R

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Re: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« Reply #10 on: October 14, 2014, 04:25:12 pm »

Could you post some samples, please?

Ok, Il look up some files tonight when I get back. I have mostly landscape shots but think I have some with buildings.
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Ken R

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Re: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2014, 06:10:37 pm »

Could not find a shot with buildings using the lens shifted. But here is a straight on shot using the 40mm HR-W on the Arca with the IQ160. No LCC applied (did not do one for this shot). Also shown are crops from the left edge and bottom left corner. No CA correction. Pretty minimal adjustments and a touch of sharpening.
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Paul2660

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Re: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2014, 07:22:58 pm »

Ken,

You for sure have a good version of the 40mm HR-W, I am surprised you got that shot without an LCC.  My 40 HR-W looks about the same without shift, however on 12mm to 15mm of shift I do get a bit of CA, which surprised me a bit.  However it's very easy to correct in either LR or C1.  I am using the 260 or 160, as I have shots taken with the 40 from both. 

As you point out, great all around lens, and so much easier to work with than the 32 HR-W.  Somewhere in the back of my mind, I still want a 32, but it's a beast.

Paul
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BAB

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Re: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2014, 09:50:22 pm »

I can't see the benifit of using the 24 with the HTS. I see no reason why Hasselblad can't make a tech body one designed to slap on their backs and provide lens boards. The HTS is so limiting with its 1.5x factor for many situations. Also make lens converters to use other manufactures lens. If Hasselblad could follow some of the camera manufactures road maps with equipment introductions based on this century innovations  the company might be self sufficient and not need outside funding. After all it's about making money?.... Isn't it?
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jerome_m

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Re: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2014, 01:48:21 am »

here is a straight on shot using the 40mm HR-W on the Arca with the IQ160.

We would need a shot with about the same equivalent of shift for a better comparison. Straight shots on the HTS don't show much CA either.
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David Eichler

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Re: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« Reply #15 on: October 16, 2014, 05:01:20 am »

Here an image taken with the HCD 24 and the HTS on an H4D-50. 11.5mm shift to the top. There are some elements on the top right corner for your pixel peeping pleasure.


Infineon Campeon technology park, Munich.


Full resolution here.

Do you have any examples with this set up of linear subjects at a much greater range of distances from the camera? That is, I would like to see do what degree straight lines are rendered as straight at various distances from the camera, in the same shot.
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torger

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Re: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« Reply #16 on: October 16, 2014, 09:50:35 am »

Lens corrections can do much about chromatic aberrations and distortion, but it can't do that much concerning general sharpness. If the lens smears the result will be smeared. The top left corner of the building in the example has quite soft low contrast surface which is nice on the lens even if it smears a bit.

I think the HTS is a nice and interesting concept, the only problem I have with it is that it costs a large amount of money and I don't think the price level matches the image quality expectation at least I have for an optical system at that cost. From an it's-practical-to-use-for-someone-already-owning-an-H-system standpoint it's entirely logical though, and the absolute quality is certainly not bad. I guess a tech cam lens that provides comparable quality and field of view would be the Rodenstock Apo-Sironar 35mm, which costs $2.2k.
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jerome_m

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Re: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« Reply #17 on: October 16, 2014, 10:46:23 am »

Do you have any examples with this set up of linear subjects at a much greater range of distances from the camera? That is, I would like to see to what degree straight lines are rendered as straight at various distances from the camera, in the same shot.

No, I did not take this kind of image during that test. But there is something you should realise: that image has seen its distortion corrected by Phocus. It is a standard feature: the HCD 24 and HCD 28 lenses have a noticeable amount of distortion (with or without HTS). Phocus uses the info from the exifs (which includes shift and tilt for the HTS) to correct that distortion. The result, as far as I can tell, is straight lines at any distance.
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jerome_m

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Re: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« Reply #18 on: October 16, 2014, 10:50:56 am »

From an it's-practical-to-use-for-someone-already-owning-an-H-system standpoint it's entirely logical though

It is even more logical if you can rent it. It is much easier to rent an HTS or an HCD 24 lens where I live than a complete view camera. For somebody who has an H camera and an HCD 28 lens (a very useful lens on its own), just renting the HTS for an architecture project is a financially attractive proposal.
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David Eichler

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Re: Hasselblad HCD 24mm on HTS.
« Reply #19 on: October 16, 2014, 03:48:34 pm »

No, I did not take this kind of image during that test. But there is something you should realise: that image has seen its distortion corrected by Phocus. It is a standard feature: the HCD 24 and HCD 28 lenses have a noticeable amount of distortion (with or without HTS). Phocus uses the info from the exifs (which includes shift and tilt for the HTS) to correct that distortion. The result, as far as I can tell, is straight lines at any distance.

Rectilinear distortion varies with the distance from the subject to the camera, and there is only so much software can do when there are straight lines at very different distances from the camera. This is why architectural photographers tend to prefer lenses with inherently low level of rectilinear distortion, regardless of the ability of software to correct for some of the distortion. Essentially what I am asking is "what is the rectilinear distortion profile of this combination before applying any software correction?"
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