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Author Topic: Overcoming OVF's Inability to Display Highlight and Shadow Clipping  (Read 1713 times)

Nick Walt

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Hi Everyone,

My E-M1 is up for sale because I'm going to full-frame (the E-M1 is a fantastic camera and I'd buy a full-frame version in a heartbeat, if it existed). The camera system that I am considering most is Canon. Primarily because of their L-lens selection (and good pricing), and because of the 6D's high ISO performance for street night shooting. I'll also shoot landscapes.

However, changing from the E-M1's EVF to the OVF in the 6D is proving to be an issue for me:

On the Olympus I could see:
1.  the highlight and shadow clipping change in the EVF as I made exposure changes, prior to taking the shot. When shooting ETTR this helps quite a bit and it becomes second nature;
2.  the aperture stop down and the image become darker or lighter as I made exposure changes, prior to taking the shot;
3.  a live histogram (although, I tended to use the blinkies instead);
4.  the DOF change. Although, not as much as in the final image;
4.  more information in a clearer layout and within a larger finder. I also had the option to show a screen that showed only the image an no information.

My primary concern with the OVF is that of not being able to see live pre-shot highlight and shadow clipping. I understand that the only way to check exposure is after the shot has been taken. Is that correct?

Now, of course all photographers prior to the introduction of mirrorless EVF technology had to deal with the limitations of an OVF. Surely, many did not feel the need for some kind of live indication of exposure clipping and I wanted to know if, after some experience, you learned to instinctively gauge any under or over exposure during pre-shot adjustments.

Because of my concern I have hesitated to buy a DSLR and instead have gone around in circles trying to find a full-frame camera system based on a mirrorless design. Is it a PITA to review exposure information after the shot is taken? Would you prefer an OVF with information overlaid on top?

The Sony A99 looks to be an awesome camera and its design would be ideal for me. However, the price of the body and lenses is prohibitive for me, and I am cautious about buying into a Sony system.

Cheers,
Nick
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 06:39:08 am by Nick Walt »
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Ken Bennett

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Re: Overcoming OVF's Inability to Display Highlight and Shadow Clipping
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2014, 08:59:25 am »

I use both. I have a complete Fuji system for most photography, and a Canon system for fast action or when I need to light something.

A few things:

1. You just get used to very quickly checking the exposure on the back of the camera - quick flip up, look, back down and shoot. Only necessary every once in a while.

2. I'm pretty good at judging a scene and dialing in some exposure compensation ahead of time based on the overall look. You'll get that with some experience.

3. On a tripod, for landscape, you can use the LCD screen just like the Oly - it will show actual exposure and will reflect changes in manual exposure or exposure compensation.
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Nick Walt

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Re: Overcoming OVF's Inability to Display Highlight and Shadow Clipping
« Reply #2 on: October 05, 2014, 01:39:24 pm »

Thank you, KB.

I do like the Canon system and I have also considered Fuji for street day and night shooting. I guess I could also consider a used Nikon D610 or, more likely, a D800E for use with ultra wide-angle and telephoto lenses on landscape and architecture. And, a Fuji with just primes for street.

There certainly is a lot to consider when diving into a new system.

Cheers,
Nick
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Overcoming OVF's Inability to Display Highlight and Shadow Clipping
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2014, 03:56:55 pm »

I understand that the only way to check exposure is after the shot has been taken. Is that correct?

you can use a spot metering, that is if you have time to spot meter in your situation or simple bracket your shots (brute force)... technically dSLRs have nowadays metering sensors with thousands of RGB pixels, so that they eventually should be able to superimpose live blinkies/zebras on demand in OVF


Is it a PITA to review exposure information after the shot is taken?

6D shall have ML firmware with true raw histogram available and may be clipping indication in frame for post shot review

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Jim Kasson

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Is there such a thing as Shadow Clipping?
« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2014, 04:15:52 pm »

My E-M1 is up for sale because I'm going to full-frame (the E-M1 is a fantastic camera and I'd buy a full-frame version in a heartbeat, if it existed). The camera system that I am considering most is Canon. Primarily because of their L-lens selection (and good pricing), and because of the 6D's high ISO performance for street night shooting. I'll also shoot landscapes.

However, changing from the E-M1's EVF to the OVF in the 6D is proving to be an issue for me:

On the Olympus I could see:
1.  the highlight and shadow clipping change in the EVF as I made exposure changes, prior to taking the shot. When shooting ETTR this helps quite a bit and it becomes second nature;

If you shoot raw, I don't think there is such a thing as shadow clipping. The signal to noise ratio gets gradually worse the less light there is as shot noise as a percentage of signal increases, and you start to get down to the place where you can see the read noise. But it's not a sudden thing at all, like highlight clipping, and there's no way to see SNR on the histogram anyway. 

You're right about the shoot/look/adjust/shoot cycle taking longer than having an in-finder histogram, though.

If you really want FF and the EVF, how about the Sony alpha 7 series?

Jim

Nick Walt

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Re: Overcoming OVF's Inability to Display Highlight and Shadow Clipping
« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2014, 11:22:05 pm »

Thanks, guys.

#deejjjaaaa: I'll check out the ML firmware for sure. However, I think that solution may still be a post-shot check. I've still to explore the various metering modes.

#Jim: I probably should have called shadow clipping by another name. I assume it is as you say, where the camera software detects the photosites that are not receiving enough light to lift the output values above a base sensor SNR threshold. So the camera highlights those outputs (data pixels) as blocked up shadow. In high contrast scenes you can see shadow and highlight warnings at the same time, of course.

I've seriously considered both the A7 and A7R and each time have walked away. I really wanted to put together a good system around those camera but couldn't.

I considered using Canon L glass with a MB IV adapter for telephoto and ultra wide angle zooms for landscape work, and some fast manual focus primes for street and walk about (Canon FDn, Voigtlander, etc) in crop mode (A7R) to get smaller files and improved IQ. However, the R just isn't flexible or reliable enough for me to make that commitment. Then there is the issues around adaption, shutter vibration, raw compression artifacts, not so good high ISO performance compared to the 6D, and the lack of image stabilisation on those primes (not all focal lengths I wanted to use were fast enough either at >f2).

As I consider the preferred system for me I begin to go down the potential of an E-M1 in a body large enough for full-frame IBIS and lenses without the added bulk of IS. The next best thing is the A99 but I just cannot justify the excessive pricing of the CZ glass, and there isn't enough Sigma Art in the range (which still has IS built in). Yet, the A99 is a far more mature platform compared to the A7 series. Although, the goals for each are also different and the A7es are more of an experiment in that regard.

I thought of going with all-Canon glass with the A7 with the option of replacing the A7 with a Canon mirrorless in the future. But the glass is too heavy for the smaller body for anything other than tripod use especially when looking hard at the weight and size benefits of mirrorless systems.

Sigh. We are in a transitional phase and it's going to span a couple of years most likely.

The whole move away from the awesome E-M1 started when I considered spending money on the new 40-150mm f2.8 PRO tele-zoom and reviewed the senor size.

I've digressed a bit so returning to the topic I will continue to consider a dual system option if I can't put together a single system that covers my preferred handling. However, I'm not sure that I can find a small mirrorless with as good low-light capability as the 6D!
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 11:31:20 pm by Nick Walt »
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Telecaster

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Re: Overcoming OVF's Inability to Display Highlight and Shadow Clipping
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2014, 01:44:53 am »

I'd suggest doing a test drive with the 6D & some lenses, or with any other alternatives you may have in mind, before making a decision. Rent if necessary. Make sure this is for photographic reasons rather than sensor size envy.

IMO the ability to consistently nail exposure on the first try with cameras like the E-M1 and A7r ranks near the top of electronic era photo innovations. I wouldn't give it up for anything less than huge gains in other areas.

-Dave-
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Nick Walt

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Re: Overcoming OVF's Inability to Display Highlight and Shadow Clipping
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2014, 02:28:54 am »

Dave, thank you. I have tried the 6D and A7 in the shop, but not the D610. I hope to try the Sony A99 as a comparison. Who knows I might find some good combination and discounts.

This is definitely not about sensor size related to GAS. If I could have found a way to keep the E-M1 I surely would have. Unfortunately, it just doesn't have the capability for low light shooting. Not even with fast glass. I couldn't solve the problem of the sensor's lack of low light high ISO noise capability.
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