Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan  (Read 30088 times)

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3267
Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« on: October 04, 2014, 11:26:52 am »

I've just become aware of that the Hasselblad CFV-50c is sold at a considerably lower price in Japan, 1,077,840 yen, about $9.9k, which is considerably less than the ~$15k it costs in the US and EU. The still have a few of the CCD CFV-50 left, and those are sold at ~$14k, ie the "old" price.

http://www.ginichi.com/products/detail.php?_product_id=14679

At $10k the price almost starts to become reasonable. I think it should be around $7-8k considering the Pentax 645z, but $10k is not too bad, and compared to traditional digital back prices it's of course fantastic value.

Anyone that has an idea why Hasselblad has a lower price of this back in Japan? Is there a larger amateur V system market there? Why don't they sell it for the same lower price in US and EU?
Logged

uaiomex

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1211
    • http://www.eduardocervantes.com
Re: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2014, 01:51:25 pm »

We're slowly but relentlessly getting to the point when getting into DMF won't be an issue of bankruptcy or divorce.
Hopefully it will happen before I have to retire for advanced age or natural death.  :D
Eduardo

I've just become aware of that the Hasselblad CFV-50c is sold at a considerably lower price in Japan, 1,077,840 yen, about $9.9k, which is considerably less than the ~$15k it costs in the US and EU. The still have a few of the CCD CFV-50 left, and those are sold at ~$14k, ie the "old" price.

http://www.ginichi.com/products/detail.php?_product_id=14679

At $10k the price almost starts to become reasonable. I think it should be around $7-8k considering the Pentax 645z, but $10k is not too bad, and compared to traditional digital back prices it's of course fantastic value.

Anyone that has an idea why Hasselblad has a lower price of this back in Japan? Is there a larger amateur V system market there? Why don't they sell it for the same lower price in US and EU?
Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2014, 07:41:18 pm »

It must be the first times a back has a list price lower in Japan than in other markets.

It is especially surprising considering the weak Yen relative to the Euro. That is around 7,000 Euros.

Phaseone typically applies a 15-20% markup in Japan with the IQ280 retailing, for example, at around 58,000 US$ list price in classic package. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 08:43:58 pm by BernardLanguillier »
Logged

JV

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1013
Re: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2014, 08:26:06 pm »

At $10k the price almost starts to become reasonable.

It also nicely illustrates how ridiculously inflated the price of $27,500K (new model with WiFi $28,500) for the H5D-50c really is...
Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2014, 08:43:33 pm »

It also nicely illustrates how ridiculously inflated the price of $27,500K (new model with WiFi $28,500) for the H5D-50c really is...

Well, we already knew from the 645Z pricing that the cost of the sensor did clearly not come close to justify the pricing of the backs using the Sony part.

It will be interesting to see whether Hassy intends to justify the price difference between the H5F-50c and the CFV-50c by not upgrading the CFV-50c with wifi and live view? ;)

That would be a pity, because at 10,000 US$ with live view, this back could get a lot of the Hassy legacy owners doing landscape interested IMHO.

Cheers,
Bernard

JV

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1013
Re: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2014, 08:53:33 pm »

Well, we already knew from the 645Z pricing that the cost of the sensor did clearly not come close to justify the pricing of the backs using the Sony part.

I wasn't even thinking of that...

It was more like: back + body = $10K + $8K < $27K

Am I missing something?  IMO the pricing of the H5D-50c is really a missed opportunity.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 08:55:46 pm by JV »
Logged

Ken R

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 849
Re: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2014, 09:21:34 pm »

I wasn't even thinking of that...

It was more like: back + body = $10K + $8K < $27K

Am I missing something?  IMO the pricing of the H5D-50c is really a missed opportunity.

Exactly.

I would sell the body / back at a good price to get people into the system. Cameras need lenses to work properly and backs don't work without cameras (well you can use them for image playback).  ;) ;D

Same with the IQ150. Sell it at 10-$15k max, Mamiya mount and get people hooked on the system.
Logged

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3267
Re: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« Reply #7 on: October 05, 2014, 03:09:50 am »

The reason Hasselblad can price the CFV-50c much much lower than the H5D-50c is that it's V-mount, and you can't change mount. The V system is dead among professional photographers -- they wouldn't get the old-school manual V system even if it was for free, but I guess it's quite popular among amateurs and for personal/artistic work. The CFV-50c is getting live view, already demonstrated at Photokina so they're not cutting down those features.

The older CCD CFV-50 was also priced much lower than the H5D-50, so that is not new. What's new is the considerably lower price in the Japanese market.
Logged

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3267
Re: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2014, 03:28:16 am »

I think the pricing of the pro MF systems (Hasselblad H and Phase One M) is set a bit after how large market they think there is, ie they could not sell more even if the price was lower. These are not all-around cameras. Compared to a journalist DSLR they're pretty much worse at everything except image quality at base ISO and tethering, so it's primarily been a studio workhorse. I know some disagree, but I think reliability has been a problem too, if you're going to sell in volume you can't have a camera that "needs a good dealer", it must be feasible to sell through any web shop, and the support only need to consist of that if it breaks you can send it in and get it repaired in reasonable time. Today it seems like you need a good dealer as a buffer and negotiation layer towards the manufacturer, can't have it like that.

Now with CMOS it's starting to become all-around though, maybe you don't really need a dealer to explain to you how the camera works, which could open up for broader uses. I think Hasselblad is in a better position for volumes sales than Phase One, both through their better body and it also seems like they're using more of standard sales channels already.

But anyway, even if the camera is made cheap the lenses are very costly. Most are considerably more expensive than a Zeiss Otus lens. With volume I guess those prices could be somewhat lowered too though.

The V back is different. This is being sold not to newcomers to MF but to users that already have a V system sitting on the shelf.

There's the opportunity to sell to tech users too, and I think that is quite a big opportunity. Unfortunately this is a bit crippled by the poor wide angle compatibility, hopefully a new generation of MF CMOS sensors will fix that. Still you can use it with Rodie wides with a limited image circle and that's good enough for some, and indeed some already use IQ250 for tech cams.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 03:42:46 am by torger »
Logged

tjv

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 135
Re: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« Reply #9 on: October 05, 2014, 03:29:13 am »

The CFV–50c does have live view, implemented via firmware update. But no Wi-fi.
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2014, 04:04:11 am »

Hi,

My guess is that MFD vendors are more comfortable selling high price low volume than selling medium price medium volume. Increasing sales means expanding production, so there is an associated costs while earnings would be the same.

Regarding technical cam compability, I got the impression that technical cams are a small but increasing part of the MFD market. The arrival of CMOS sensors may be helpful, because they have live view which solves many issues with technical cameras (IMHO). The new sensors don't work well large beam tilts, as you have shown. I guess that lens designs will adopt. It may be that sensor designs will adopt, too. Leica has developed an MFD version of it's CMOSIS designed sensor, and I think it has a much shallower well design than the Sony CMOS sensor. They perhaps put it into a Sinar back? (Leica owns Sinar)

Leica seems to be a medium price, medium volume seller in the MFD industry it seems. It may be Sinar/Leica that comes out with the first affordable back?

Best regards
Erik

I think the pricing of the pro MF systems (Hasselblad H and Phase One M) is set a bit after how large market they think there is, ie they could not sell more even if the price was lower. These are not all-around cameras. Compared to a journalist DSLR they're pretty much worse at everything except image quality at base ISO and tethering, so it's primarily been a studio workhorse. I know some disagree, but I think reliability has been a problem too, if you're going to sell in volume you can't have a camera that "needs a good dealer", it must be feasible to sell through any web shop, and the support only need to consist of that if it breaks you can send it in and get it repaired in reasonable time. Today it seems like you need a good dealer as a buffer and negotiation layer towards the manufacturer, can't have it like that.

Now with CMOS it's starting to become all-around though, maybe you don't really need a dealer to explain to you how the camera works, which could open up for broader uses. I think Hasselblad is in a better position for volumes sales than Phase One, both through their better body and it also seems like they're using more of standard sales channels already.

But anyway, even if the camera is made cheap the lenses are very costly. Most are considerably more expensive than a Zeiss Otus lens. With volume I guess those prices could be somewhat lowered too though.

The V back is different. This is being sold not to newcomers to MF but to users that already have a V system sitting on the shelf.

There's the opportunity to sell to tech users too, and I think that is quite a big opportunity. Unfortunately this is a bit crippled by the poor wide angle compatibility, hopefully a new generation of MF CMOS sensors will fix that. Still you can use it with Rodie wides with a limited image circle and that's good enough for some, and indeed some already use IQ250 for tech cams.
Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2014, 04:13:42 am »

Interesting, can the CFV-50c be used on a tech camera?

Cheers,
Bernard

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3267
Re: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2014, 05:02:03 am »

Interesting, can the CFV-50c be used on a tech camera?

Yes it can.

The Sony CMOS sensor has limited compatibility with technical wide angles though (crosstalk), so it's not great for landscape and architecture. However, using the Rodenstock Digaron lens lines, shifting a bit less and having a bit relaxed view on color fidelity when you shift it can still be used also with wides. I'm myself a Schneider Digitar user (symmetrical rather than retrofocus lenses) like to be able to shift a lot and think color fidelity is more important than sharpness so for me it's not an option, but I think it can be for some others. There of course also tech users that don't shoot wide angle, such as product and food photography, art reproduction etc and then it will work nicely.

To be a big potential for a broader amateur market I think the back needs to be strong with wide angles and also support the substantially cheaper Schneider Digitar range, but for that new sensor type is required. But maybe you can make a few sales in the product/food/reproduction genre with this.

Hasselblad has been totally useless in promoting their products for tech camera use though, which I think is a mistake. They've left it wide-open for Phase One to dominate. The 50 megapixel CCD has actually excellent wide angle comptability, much better than the Dalsas used in Phase One backs, making the old CCD version CFV-50 a great tech cam option for the Schneider Digitar range, but they totally missed that opportunity.
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 05:10:33 am by torger »
Logged

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2014, 07:16:59 am »

Yes it can.

The Sony CMOS sensor has limited compatibility with technical wide angles though (crosstalk), so it's not great for landscape and architecture. However, using the Rodenstock Digaron lens lines, shifting a bit less and having a bit relaxed view on color fidelity when you shift it can still be used also with wides. I'm myself a Schneider Digitar user (symmetrical rather than retrofocus lenses) like to be able to shift a lot and think color fidelity is more important than sharpness so for me it's not an option, but I think it can be for some others. There of course also tech users that don't shoot wide angle, such as product and food photography, art reproduction etc and then it will work nicely.

To be a big potential for a broader amateur market I think the back needs to be strong with wide angles and also support the substantially cheaper Schneider Digitar range, but for that new sensor type is required. But maybe you can make a few sales in the product/food/reproduction genre with this.

Hasselblad has been totally useless in promoting their products for tech camera use though, which I think is a mistake. They've left it wide-open for Phase One to dominate. The 50 megapixel CCD has actually excellent wide angle comptability, much better than the Dalsas used in Phase One backs, making the old CCD version CFV-50 a great tech cam option for the Schneider Digitar range, but they totally missed that opportunity.

Thanks! This is becoming interesting.

Cheers,
Bernard

gmfotografie

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27
    • gmfotografie
Re: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2014, 08:40:18 am »

i´m also very interested in the new cfv-50c in combination with a arca rm3di or alpa system.
if someone have more information on this topic, please share it with me/us.

i will use it for landscpe photography (normally i will shot with a 35mm, 50mm lens, calculated for a fullframe dslr ; 5dIII)

best michael

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3267
Re: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2014, 09:11:03 am »

As the IQ250, IQ150 and Credo 50 also have the same sensor you can look for tests made for them. Over at getdpi you have the following interesting threads:

http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/51985-leaf-credo-50-review-guy-mancuso.html (contains real-world examples of shifted Digaron-W 40mm)
http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-format-systems-digital-backs/52000-lcc-23hr-35hr-40hr-iq250.html

The problem is that this sensor is not designed to deal with the very low angles technical wide angles deliver the light to the sensor. This means that you get leaks between the color channels (crosstalk) which means that you get a color error in the form of desaturation in mild cases.

However, if you're not into "art reproduction" color fidelity you can accept some crosstalk, and then you can shift the Digaron-S 35mm about 12mm. If your 35mm is a Schneider Digitar 35mm which is a symmetric design, it will work fine dead on but you cannot shift it at all. Digaron-W 40mm will do about 15mm shift of okay color fidelity.

35mm 135 lens would mean ~43mm for the 44x33mm sensor. Probably the Digaron-W 40mm is a bit nicer to the sensor than the Schneider Digitar 43mm. If you're not going wider than that, you think 12-15mm shift is enough and you can accept some color fidelity loss in those shifted areas (mostly not detectable in real-world images, see Guy Manusco's Credo 50 test above) it will work for you.

One thing with the CFV-50c which is not known yet is the quality of the live view. Almost certainly it will be a bit sub-standard (it was when beta was shown at Photokina), slow auto-exposure, slow update rate, not at all as a modern small format camera or the other brands using the same CMOS sensor. The reason seems to be that the digital back platform Hasselblad has is aging and cannot really handle realtime video that well. However, say if it's 10 fps without lag and a good 100% zoom it will still work well for focusing even if not "state-of-the-art" performance. I would not buy in the blind though, at least not without seeing a video and hearing a review of how the live view works for focusing.

Of course, with the RM3Di you have high precision focusing ring and you're less dependent on live view focusing (just use laser distance meter and dial in your focusing distance), if it's good enough for framing/composition I guess it's good enough for you. There are merits with high precision focusing rings even with live view, but much less so than before. Therefore I would suggest that you also consider view camera alternatives such as Arca-Swiss MF-two or the new F-Universalis or Linhof Techno, or look into Cambo Actus. An advantage with a view camera is that the lens mount cost is much lower, and when you can focus with live view you don't need to agonize over the ground glass. You also get more flexible movements (typically).
« Last Edit: October 05, 2014, 09:20:36 am by torger »
Logged

gmfotografie

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27
    • gmfotografie
Re: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2014, 09:37:21 am »

many thanks for your great help

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2014, 07:08:15 am »

Are there full size CFV-50c samples captured at various ISO available online somewhere?

This back really has gotten me interested.

Thank you.

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2014, 08:55:23 am »

This dude on flickr is using one.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/125930877@N07

Thanks, ok images but nothing too impressive to be honnest. Rendering is clean but nothing my current equipment doesn't do just as well.

Cheers,
Bernard

BernardLanguillier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 13983
    • http://www.flickr.com/photos/bernardlanguillier/sets/
Re: Hasselblad CFV-50c costs less than $10k in Japan
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2014, 10:58:31 am »

I thought it odd you wanted some information on another Sony Sensor when you already have one.

I think that there is a lot more to the rendering delivered by a camera+lens than the name of the company manufacturing the sensor base.

My interest in the CFV-50c remains, I just don't see anything special in those Flickr samples. Them being not available as full size images may be part of it.

Cheers,
Bernard
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up