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Author Topic: Actually, we need even more resolution.  (Read 39589 times)

nik

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Re: Actually, we need even more resolution.
« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2014, 05:48:00 pm »

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chrismuc

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Re: Actually, we need even more resolution.
« Reply #41 on: October 02, 2014, 06:02:37 pm »

Jerome, Epson at Photokina showed what you are looking for: A print of a very high resolution digital image on the Epson 11880 large format inkjet printer in about 160cm high and 350cm wide.

Photographer: Stefan Arand
Motive: Toledo (Spanish city)
Camera: Hasselblad H4x + IQ260 60 MP back

A large number of 60 MP images are stitched together to a total resolution of about 28.000 pixel wide x 13.000 pixel high = 360 MP.
The printed resolution of the picture is therefore about 8 dots/mm or 200 dpi.
That resolution (and the excellent resolution of the Epson printer 2880x1440 dpi x 8 colors) is definitely high enough to go as near as you want to the picture to examine an incredible amount of detail. The wow effect is really wow (excellent picture + high resolution + large print)!

Stefan Arand offers a high resolution version of that image to zoom in:
http://www.stefanarand.com/highresolution/toledo/toledo_by_Stefan_Arand.html

Here is a link to a pdf that contains additional information on that work (page 22).
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CCwQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.fineartprinter.de%2Fcontent%2Fdownload%2F7283%2F59099%2Ffile%2FActivateYourMegaPixel_Print.pdf&ei=1MMtVNjYC8b4ywOoy4DQBA&usg=AFQjCNHCoMzayzHfyY_At6qQwxJbsOZWzQ&sig2=lQoEzkc-5CNGo_z6SJdBug&bvm=bv.76802529,d.bGQ&cad=rja
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Actually, we need even more resolution, another issue
« Reply #42 on: October 03, 2014, 12:35:47 am »

Hi,

One thing to keep in mind is that it is not possible to keep everything in focus. There is just a plane of focus, a plane that has some curvature. Going up in resolution reduces the depth of actual focus.

Shooting digital, it is normally accepted that once the Airy circle diameter exceeds twice the pixel pitch resolution is significantly reduced. So going to small pixels we need shoot with large apertures and depth of focus will be short. Just an example:

Let's assume a DSLR with a 50 mm lens and a pixel pitch of 4.8 microns and using the CoC equal twice pixel pith criteria, hyperfocal distance  at f/8 will be: 31 m

Now let us go to 2.5 micron pixels, still using the same camera, with a truly excellent lens like the Otus used at f/4 where it tends to have it's best performance the hyperfocal distance will be 125 m.

Now, let's use an 80 mm lens on an MFD with 5.2 micron pitch at f/8, hyperfocal distance will be 80 m.

Shooting that 80 mm lens on 2.5 micron MFD at f/5.6 would give a hyperfocal distance of 226 m


This can be quite relevant. In the discussion following Tim Parkins comparison between large format film and MFD, Hans Strand (a well known Swedish landscape photographer) strongly suggested that he doesn't get better results with large format film than with MFD, due to diffraction. It is discussed in this article:

https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2011/12/camera-test-editors-commentary/

See quotes below:

Quote
This isn’t quite the end of the story though, as seen in Hans Strand’s comments where he says he is getting better results from his medium format back than he was getting from 5×4 and 8×10. Digging a little deeper, Hans was using much larger apertures that used in the tests so I did a few calculations. The following table might look really confusing at first but bear with me. What I’ve done is to provide, for each platform, a list of aperture’s used in the test where each row shows an equivalent aperture for each platform. i.e. the first row in each table is the aperture that gives the same depth of field for that platform. What follows this is the theoretical maximum enlargement based on diffraction (based on the table here) – however I’ve modified these to limit the maximum enlargement based on a couple of different factors. The first limitation is the maximum enlargement of a 35mm digital ~20Mp camera which is 12″ x 18″ (at 300dpi). The next limitation is placed on the Phase IQ180 system because it has a maximum enlargement of 26″ x 32″ (based on 300dpi). The next limitation the maximum resolution for lenses for the Mamiya 7 which is about 100 line pairs per mm. The final limitation is the resolution of LF lenses which is about 70 line pairs per mm. Each of these tables now shows the largest enlargement in mm for each platform and each f-stop for equivalent depth of fields. Fortunately you can ignore all of that maths and skip your way down to the very last table which shows the ratio of the different platforms to each other at equivalent focal lengths.
Quote
In summary, this table shows the maximum critical enlargement for each camera type at each aperture taking into account diffraction and ‘best lenses’. e.g. 35mm and Mamiya 7 are film limited at 13x but the IQ180 sensor will allow a 19x enlargement before diffraction kicks in. The last table shows the relative enlargement ratios of the camera pairs shown. e.g comparing IQ180 and 8×10 shows that at smaller apertures the advantage to 8×10 is 2.3x but this falls behind at f/90 to 0.9x – diffraction has killed 8×10’s advantage

I am pretty sure that this always applies, weather shooting small sensor or large format film. To get DoF we need to stop down and that limits resolution. Two exceptions landscape with no significant foreground and tilted plane of focus.

Focus stacking is a way around the problem, but has issues with anything that moves.

Best regards
Erik
« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 12:41:30 am by ErikKaffehr »
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jerome_m

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Re: Actually, we need even more resolution.
« Reply #43 on: October 03, 2014, 05:28:34 am »

Jerome, Epson at Photokina showed what you are looking for: A print of a very high resolution digital image on the Epson 11880 large format inkjet printer in about 160cm high and 350cm wide.

Exactly. This is actually one of the printers I gave as examples earlier on.


Quote
Photographer: Stefan Arand
Motive: Toledo (Spanish city)
Camera: Hasselblad H4x + IQ260 60 MP back

A large number of 60 MP images are stitched together to a total resolution of about 28.000 pixel wide x 13.000 pixel high = 360 MP.
The printed resolution of the picture is therefore about 8 dots/mm or 200 dpi.

It is an impressive work and I guess Stefen Arand must have taken a lot of time to hide all the stitches in the river. I was only able to find one. We definitely need a camera which can do that in one go (I am still in tongue in cheek mode, remember?  ;D ).
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jerome_m

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Re: Actually, we need even more resolution, another issue
« Reply #44 on: October 03, 2014, 05:30:07 am »

One thing to keep in mind is that it is not possible to keep everything in focus.

That is not a real problem, see the Toledo picture.
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Enda Cavanagh

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Re: Actually, we need even more resolution.
« Reply #45 on: October 03, 2014, 06:44:36 am »

Bart. Does that come with a neck strap? I think it could be great for discreet street photography

eronald

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Re: Actually, we need even more resolution.
« Reply #46 on: October 03, 2014, 07:08:25 am »

I am reminded somehow of the chess master who was asked how many moves he could think ahead.
He replied: "One. The right one".

Edmund
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Actually, we need even more resolution.
« Reply #47 on: October 03, 2014, 08:45:25 am »

Bart. Does that come with a neck strap? I think it could be great for discreet street photography

Hi Enda,

Not quite, but a horse and cart were common accessories, I believe. This one was built by George R. Lawrence.

Cheers,
Bart
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Actually, we need even more resolution.
« Reply #48 on: October 03, 2014, 08:55:08 am »

It is an impressive work and I guess Stefen Arand must have taken a lot of time to hide all the stitches in the river. I was only able to find one. We definitely need a camera which can do that in one go (I am still in tongue in cheek mode, remember?  ;D ).

My guess is less than 30 minutes if he used a decent stitching software... ;)

But I would need the original files to know for sure.

Cheers,
Bernard

peterv

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Re: Actually, we need even more resolution.
« Reply #49 on: October 03, 2014, 04:42:47 pm »

Hi Bernard, I really enjoyed your Stitching - An Advanced Approach article. I understand this is a valid option to obtain very high res files.
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jerome_m

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Re: Actually, we need even more resolution.
« Reply #50 on: October 03, 2014, 05:10:41 pm »

My guess is less than 30 minutes if he used a decent stitching software... ;)

(still tongue in cheek mode...)


I see... you believe in software.

Let us suppose that my lifetime dream would be to get a picture of the ocean. I want to see big waves and I want to have it printed at the largest size that Epson 11880 can so that I can recognise the surfers riding those waves with a magnifier. How do I do that?  ;D
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Actually, we need even more resolution.
« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2014, 05:26:32 pm »

(still tongue in cheek mode...)


I see... you believe in software.

Let us suppose that my lifetime dream would be to get a picture of the ocean. I want to see big waves and I want to have it printed at the largest size that Epson 11880 can so that I can recognise the surfers riding those waves with a magnifier. How do I do that?  ;D

Why don't you buy a 432 megapixel camera?

Cheers,
Bernard

Theodoros

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Re: Actually, we need even more resolution.
« Reply #52 on: October 03, 2014, 05:32:47 pm »

My guess is to shoot it in a single shot....  a 24mp file will give a 4x6ft print just fine... a larger file, even more! Then there is the Roundshot 220VR solution for an absolute panoramic...
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Actually, we need even more resolution.
« Reply #53 on: October 03, 2014, 05:46:14 pm »

Hi,

8x10" shot at f/11 should fill your needs, Airy disk diameter at f/11 is about 11 microns. You need a lens that covers 8x10" at f/11 and has reasonable MTF at 50 lp/mm. That would give you something like 18000 pixels on the short side.

With todays MFD sensors we would need 2.4 micron resolution. That is absolutely feasible as there are sensors with higher resolution, but that would need a lens capable of good MTF at around 200 lp/mm at around f/2.8.

A realistic alternative would be using say 4-8 synchronised IQ-280s and stitch.

What seems clear to me is that diffraction would be a limiting factor and extremely good lenses would be needed.

Best regards
Erik

 

« Last Edit: October 03, 2014, 05:56:36 pm by ErikKaffehr »
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Theodoros

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Re: Actually, we need even more resolution.
« Reply #54 on: October 03, 2014, 06:02:41 pm »

Hi,

8x10" shot at f/11 should fill your needs, Airy disk diameter at f/11 is about 11 microns. You need a lens that covers 8x10" at f/11 and has reasonable MTF at 50 lp/mm. That would give you something like 18000 pixels on the short side.

With todays MFD sensors we would need 2.4 micron resolution. That is absolutely feasible as there are sensors with higher resolution, but that would need a lens capable of good MTF at around 200 lp/mm at around f/2.8.

A realistic alternative would be using say 4-8 synchronised IQ-280s and stitch.

Best regards
Erik

 


Still, this is all theory... one forgets the factor of Bayer pattern interpolation that messes (visible) resolution up... After all, it all depends on how high one ranks resolution in his personal ranking of ...image quality. I know most pros don't... (including those that print  really big and sell expensive).
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BJL

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"stack and stitch" FTW
« Reply #55 on: October 03, 2014, 09:09:34 pm »

That is not a real problem, see the Toledo picture.
Actually, the Toledo picture illustrates nicely what Erik and I are saying:
To get DoF we need to stop down and that limits resolution. Two exceptions landscape with no significant foreground and tilted plane of focus.
The iron trade-of between DOF and diffraction means that these massive pixel counts probably need focus stacking with anything but distant landscapes that have no foreground needing to be in focus.
Because in that Toledo picture, nothing this side of the river is in focus even when you zoom in only part way; in fact even the cars of the other side of the river are OOF at well less than full resolution, and I wonder if anything much closer than the cathedral is in focus when viewed large enough to see the full detail in that file.

And distant cathedrals are fine, slow moving candidates for "stack and stitch".


P. S. Erik has suggested a convenient measure of which sort of scenes benefit from any given high level of image detail: hyperfocal distance for "pixel sharp" images at a given pixel count.
Though as a pre-megal-pixel old-timer, I prefer measuring in "hyperfocal distance as a function of resolution in lines per picture height", which I am fairly sure is (almost) independent of format size.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Actually, we need even more resolution.
« Reply #56 on: October 04, 2014, 03:06:36 am »

Hi,

The question posted is not my idea…, the OP wants one pixel resolution for each resolved pixel in the print.

On the other hand the numbers I posted take Bayer interpolation into account. I would also say they are a bit conservative. In experiments I have done there is a clear degradation of image quality once Airy disc diameter gets larger than pixel size, but the figures I give are for twice the pixel size.

The samples below were shot on a 4.77 micron sensor with an 100/2.8 Minolta Macro at f/5.6 resp f/8. The second row was sharpened in FocusMagic, letting FM choosing the sharpening radius.
5.6 micron Airy diameter8.2 micron Airy diameter

5.6 micron Airy diameter + FocusMagic8.2 micron Airy diameter + Focus Magic


I would add that I don't think there is anything wrong with the Bayer matrix. It requires an OLP filter to render colour detail correctly, but any point sampled system does require OLP filtering for proper rendition of luminousity.

Best regards
Erik



Still, this is all theory... one forgets the factor of Bayer pattern interpolation that messes (visible) resolution up... After all, it all depends on how high one ranks resolution in his personal ranking of ...image quality. I know most pros don't... (including those that print  really big and sell expensive).
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 03:19:43 am by ErikKaffehr »
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jerome_m

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Re: Actually, we need even more resolution.
« Reply #57 on: October 04, 2014, 05:48:47 am »

Why don't you buy a 432 megapixel camera?

They are not readily available. Which is the whole point of this thread: internet forum analysts argue that resolutions beyond 20 (argued around 2009), 50 (argued around 2011) or 80 mpix (argued today) are not needed, yet printers capable of taking advantages of over 400 mpix are readily available and cost less than the average MF back (the Epson 11880 discussed earlier costs 7000$ at B&H).

The same internet forum analysts argue that the properties of human vision are such that large prints can only be seen from far away, yet museum and gallery visitors routinely walk up to the works and look at them from close. And artists who recognise that fact have great success  placing their huge high resolution pictures on the walls of museums and galleries.

Whose picture was chosen by Epson for the Photokina booth: the 360 MP one or the one the internet forum analysts did not make?  ::)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 05:51:28 am by jerome_m »
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jerome_m

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Re: "stack and stitch" FTW
« Reply #58 on: October 04, 2014, 06:00:13 am »

Actually, the Toledo picture illustrates nicely what Erik and I are saying

What I meant is that indeed parts of the Toledo picture are OOF. This is not a problem and did not preclude that picture to be chosen for photokina.

The question was about a 400 Mpix file where the main subject is sharp. The main subject may not cover the entire printed area. Depth of focus is a tool for expressing our message and it is not a problem if we, as photographer, choose to leave some parts out of focus, thereby expressing what is our chosen subject and what is not.
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eronald

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Re: Actually, we need even more resolution.
« Reply #59 on: October 04, 2014, 07:40:11 am »

If we had the design files for trees, flowers, mountains etc we wouldn't need to photograph, we could just generate.

Edmund


Hi,

The question posted is not my idea…, the OP wants one pixel resolution for each resolved pixel in the print.

On the other hand the numbers I posted take Bayer interpolation into account. I would also say they are a bit conservative. In experiments I have done there is a clear degradation of image quality once Airy disc diameter gets larger than pixel size, but the figures I give are for twice the pixel size.

The samples below were shot on a 4.77 micron sensor with an 100/2.8 Minolta Macro at f/5.6 resp f/8. The second row was sharpened in FocusMagic, letting FM choosing the sharpening radius.
5.6 micron Airy diameter8.2 micron Airy diameter

5.6 micron Airy diameter + FocusMagic8.2 micron Airy diameter + Focus Magic


I would add that I don't think there is anything wrong with the Bayer matrix. It requires an OLP filter to render colour detail correctly, but any point sampled system does require OLP filtering for proper rendition of luminousity.

Best regards
Erik



« Last Edit: October 04, 2014, 08:01:51 am by eronald »
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