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Author Topic: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass  (Read 32739 times)

Paul Ozzello

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #40 on: October 11, 2014, 03:38:57 pm »

Doesn't look like its available in the us or canada... :(

Robert Ardill

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #41 on: October 11, 2014, 04:50:32 pm »

Doesn't look like its available in the us or canada... :(

I'm sure you can get the equivalent.  It's a water-based varnish for wood.  It looks milky before application, but dries clear.

So far it's the best I've found for matte paper.  It improves the blacks and there's very little or no color change.  The only issue I have with it (apart from possible long-term effect on the inks ... before using it I would check with the manufacturer for pH etc) is that even the matte does give a sheen to the paper, so if the light is at 45 degrees, say, and there's a wide patch of dark ink the varnish is reflected.  On the other hand it improves the paper texture because of the slight sheen, more like a traditional painting (the inkjet inks tend to be very matte and they flatten the paper texture).

It's even good on gloss paper (but the satin varnish would be better): but it would need to be sprayed on to avoid the brush lines.

As far as wax is concerned: I wouldn't use it on inkjet matte paper.  I think it deadens the blacks.

So for traditional watercolors I would use the beeswax but I would not buff it (what I do is to apply it quite liberally with a soft rag and then wipe the excess off): it dries to a lovely finish and enriches the painting.  Using the matte varnish is a no-no as it smears the paint (both being water-based).

For ink-jet matte the water-based matte varnish does seem a real possibility.

Robert
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huguito

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #42 on: October 13, 2014, 12:56:47 am »

Just finished a print on Renaissance.
Printed on Epson Hot Press Bright.
Left to dry for a day.
I apply two coats of the Hahnemuhle first to avoid rubbing or smearing the ink
Left again for a day to dry the spray
I rub a thin layer of the wax and still look and feel rough, not waxy enough to buff.
one more coat a bit heavier of wax and few hours of drying before buffing to get rid of marks on the wax coat
After finish the buffing the surface has a nice waxy feel to the touch, a bit of smell like wax, not unpleasant.
The look if not changed much.
Looks very resistant to a scratch from my fingernails.
Bad part is that the subtle texture of the paper got completely flattened, the surface looks like a very smooth matte paper now, not to my liking.
This print is 8.5 x 11
I can't imagine how much works will take to finish something big like a 17 x 22
I probably not use this as a normal part of my workflow, at least on matte papers, maybe they are too absorbent for this treatment.
I may try again with something like Canson Baryta or Ilford Gold Silk and report the findings.

Like every experiment, is fun even if the results are not as expected

Hugo
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Robert Ardill

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #43 on: October 13, 2014, 04:27:47 am »

Just finished a print on Renaissance.
Printed on Epson Hot Press Bright.
Left to dry for a day.
I apply two coats of the Hahnemuhle first to avoid rubbing or smearing the ink
Left again for a day to dry the spray
I rub a thin layer of the wax and still look and feel rough, not waxy enough to buff.
one more coat a bit heavier of wax and few hours of drying before buffing to get rid of marks on the wax coat
After finish the buffing the surface has a nice waxy feel to the touch, a bit of smell like wax, not unpleasant.
The look if not changed much.
Looks very resistant to a scratch from my fingernails.
Bad part is that the subtle texture of the paper got completely flattened, the surface looks like a very smooth matte paper now, not to my liking.
This print is 8.5 x 11
I can't imagine how much works will take to finish something big like a 17 x 22
I probably not use this as a normal part of my workflow, at least on matte papers, maybe they are too absorbent for this treatment.
I may try again with something like Canson Baryta or Ilford Gold Silk and report the findings.

Like every experiment, is fun even if the results are not as expected

Hugo

Hi Hugo,

You certainly went to a lot of trouble to do it right!  The only reason I can think that you've lost the texture of the paper is that you put too much wax on.  One coat should be plenty enough and you should keep it thin, wiping off any excess.

Still ... for some reason it's not working for me either on inkjet paper whereas it works very well on watercolor paper.  I've tried it on Canson Arches Aquarelle Rag and the traditional Arches Cold Press papers (same manufacturer, more or less) - fine on the traditional paper, not good on the inkjet-treated medium.

A varnish may be a better choice.

Cheers,

Robert
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huguito

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #44 on: October 13, 2014, 02:21:23 pm »

Hi Robert
Actually I had barely put wax in the first coat and the paper soaked so much that after the little rag I was using travel few inches the paper was just being scratched dry. And at that point,with barely a bit of wax on it, the paper had gone flat of texture already
It may be be that the Epson paper I chosen is just too absorbent and it soaks it up making it not a good choice for this finish.
I will try a sheet of the Epson Exhibition Watercolor, that one has much more texture. Maybe it looks nicer after finished.
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Robert Ardill

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #45 on: October 14, 2014, 07:29:30 am »

Hi Robert
Actually I had barely put wax in the first coat and the paper soaked so much that after the little rag I was using travel few inches the paper was just being scratched dry. And at that point,with barely a bit of wax on it, the paper had gone flat of texture already
It may be be that the Epson paper I chosen is just too absorbent and it soaks it up making it not a good choice for this finish.
I will try a sheet of the Epson Exhibition Watercolor, that one has much more texture. Maybe it looks nicer after finished.


Hi Hugo,

I've had no success with wax on inkjet papers either ... but mainly the dulling of the blacks.  The paper texture does get flattened too, but I found that a small amount of buffing brings it back fine.  The problem with that is that it then gives a sheen to the paper.

Not such an easy problem!

Robert
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na goodman

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #46 on: October 14, 2014, 09:50:24 am »

I have found that many techniques that work on traditional media don't necessarily work for inkjet coated papers due to the coating.
For this reason, I also feel like I don't know the longevity of the print any longer the more I experiment with products that work for traditional art papers. One company that I have found that is extremely knowledgeable in coatings for both traditional and inkjet is Golden. They are very helpful if you have more questions regarding any of their products or if you want to try traditional methods on inkjet coated art papers or canvas they seem to know the answer.
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Mike Sellers

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #47 on: October 14, 2014, 11:17:39 am »

what brand of glossy overlam are you referring to?
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Robert Ardill

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #48 on: October 14, 2014, 12:14:42 pm »

I have found that many techniques that work on traditional media don't necessarily work for inkjet coated papers due to the coating.
For this reason, I also feel like I don't know the longevity of the print any longer the more I experiment with products that work for traditional art papers. One company that I have found that is extremely knowledgeable in coatings for both traditional and inkjet is Golden. They are very helpful if you have more questions regarding any of their products or if you want to try traditional methods on inkjet coated art papers or canvas they seem to know the answer.

Which Golden are you referring to?  Is it http://www.goldencoating.com.au/? 
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na goodman

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #49 on: October 14, 2014, 12:31:16 pm »

On the Golden US site there are a few different products. It's been awhile since I worked with 2 different artist's in trying to find something that would work on inkjet papers that they were using on traditional papers. We did speak to them (Golden) and they were very helpful. I would suggest if you have specific questions, contact them.
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Robert Ardill

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #50 on: October 15, 2014, 07:32:25 am »

Some possible progress ....

I got a can of Winsor & Newton All Purpose Matt Varnish Aerosol and it seems to do an excellent job on matte papers - no effect on blacks that I can see. 

The varnish is also available in Gloss.

Robert
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Gary Damaskos

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #51 on: October 15, 2014, 12:53:08 pm »

I finally got to my first use of Dorland's Wax Medium. Here is a link to instructions on applying that guided me (that and I my ancient experience applying pure beeswax to N surface darkroom prints). http://jacquardproducts.com/assets/jacquard-site/product-pages/waxes/Dorlands_Wax_Instructions.pdf

The print paper is Red River Polar Matte CS1 60#. The printer for this one was Canon Pro9000 MKII using Precision inks (dye ink). The print is cold mounted to foam core. Print was first coated with Print Guard. I used my heat gun to "melt or make soft" the wax. I used Scott Shop Towel (folded) to apply to print. I immediately wiped off excess, looked for thin areas and reapplied as I felt needed to leave no thin area. Areas too thick got heated up a bit to easier wipe off excess.


Well, I think it is beautiful. There is a bit more depth to my eye. As far as gloss, I do not see any - or enough that results in me thinking it is "glossy". It still is very much a matte surface. I have looked at it face on, from an angle in direct sunlight to look for reflectance etc. The blacks are as good as they ever were, which is good. Not effected in my experience.

My next step is apply to a print from the Epson 3880 with oem inks, and see if ink makes a difference. I project it will not, but hey, no guarantees. After that if it goes well, will be to apply to a rougher surfaced matte paper. In all cases I believe print should be precoated when matte. For gloss paper I have just used the Renaissance Wax without coating first, even on the Overlam when I use one (stops fingerprints really well).

Beware that the instructions specifically say thick coats = translucence instead of transparency.

Hope this is some use,
Cheers
Gary
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 01:21:32 pm by Gary Damaskos »
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Gary Damaskos

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #52 on: October 15, 2014, 01:01:15 pm »

what brand of glossy overlam are you referring to?

GLOSSY (Paper) Pressure Sensitive Overlaminate from Coda, Inc.
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Robert Ardill

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #53 on: October 15, 2014, 01:42:08 pm »

I finally got to my first use of Dorland's Wax Medium. Here is a link to instructions on applying that guided me (that and I my ancient experience applying pure beeswax to N surface darkroom prints). http://jacquardproducts.com/assets/jacquard-site/product-pages/waxes/Dorlands_Wax_Instructions.pdf

The print paper is Red River Polar Matte CS1 60#. The printer for this one was Canon Pro9000 MKII using Precision inks (dye ink). The print is cold mounted to foam core. Print was first coated with Print Guard. I used my heat gun to "melt or make soft" the wax. I used Scott Shop Towel (folded) to apply to print. I immediately wiped off excess, looked for thin areas and reapplied as I felt needed to leave no thin area. Areas too thick got heated up a bit to easier wipe off excess.


Well, I think it is beautiful. There is a bit more depth to my eye. As far as gloss, I do not see any - or enough that results in me thinking it is "glossy". It still is very much a matte surface. I have looked at it face on, from an angle in direct sunlight to look for reflectance etc. The blacks are as good as they ever were, which is good. Not effected in my experience.

My next step is apply to a print from the Epson 3880 with oem inks, and see if ink makes a difference. I project it will not, but hey, no guarantees. After that if it goes well, will be to apply to a rougher surfaced matte paper. In all cases I believe print should be precoated when matte. For gloss paper I have just used the Renaissance Wax without coating first, even on the Overlam when I use one (stops fingerprints really well).

Beware that the instructions specifically say thick coats = translucence instead of transparency.

Hope this is some use,
Cheers
Gary

Thanks Gary.  Is this the Print Guard you refer to: http://www.marrutt.com/inkjet-paper-recommendations/video-11-lyson-printguard-spray.html

I wonder what the point of waxing would be after applying a varnish like this one?  Since it seals and protects the print.

I have some Winsor Newton spray varnish that seems similar (although the Lyson seems better because it doesn't change the glossiness or lack of) so I'll try to wax over to see what I get.

Robert
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Gary Damaskos

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #54 on: October 15, 2014, 02:03:56 pm »

Thanks Gary.  Is this the Print Guard you refer to: http://www.marrutt.com/inkjet-paper-recommendations/video-11-lyson-printguard-spray.html

I wonder what the point of waxing would be after applying a varnish like this one?  Since it seals and protects the print.

I have some Winsor Newton spray varnish that seems similar (although the Lyson seems better because it doesn't change the glossiness or lack of) so I'll try to wax over to see what I get.

Robert
Yep same. The Lyson that started the whole "archival" inks for the Epson 3000 that changed our world!

The point would be that the wax adds depth and enhanced protection, fingerprints and other undesired are easier to remove than PG only. The PG is to stop any possible "smearing" of the inks and to prevent over penetrating so as to loosen the mounting adhesive. Any fixative would likely be fine for this. I happen to like the PG because I find it one of the easiest to apply "smoothly and uniformly" in terms of reflectance from the surface. Varnishes I have used are a lot harder to get even on the surface. No, I use cans not spray gun so that is my current paradigm for spray coatings. 

Cheers
Gary
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hugowolf

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #55 on: October 16, 2014, 01:58:18 am »

A few thoughts:

I have a series of botanical specimen shots (flora on a hot white background) that I sell framed without glazing. They are only coated with Hahnemühle spray and are on either Canson Rag Photographique or Hahnemühle German Etching.

They need more maintenance than glazed and frame prints; they really need going over lightly with an ostrich feather duster once a month. Otherwise they stand up fine under normal household conditions. I have removed red wine splashes from one of them with no problem.

I am wary about beeswax. I have a couple of pieces of furniture that I built, for which I used pure beeswax as a finish, and show no sign of degradation after a couple of decades. However, some of the beeswax used for that was stored in the cellar, and shows mould growth on the outside of each block of wax. From the same blocks that were used as a finish.

As for the oil on canvas not needing glass, if you go through any museum nowadays, you will unfortunately find many oil-on-canvas pieces under glass for protection. It is mostly an anti vandalism thing. Spray paint is difficult to remove and many insurers demand glazing. And there is a move there towards acrylic, it is easily scratched, but doesn’t shatter.

I don’t know if any of you have seen the Mona Lisa recently, but it really isn’t worth it. It is under so much protection and in such a dim room and there are better things to see in the Louvre.

I did see a glorious exhibit of Albrecht Dürer prints last year, and the cotton and linen papers had stood up to 500 years without any signs of age, except the few that had been dry mounted, which were in terrible shape.

It is always a trade off.

Brian A
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Robert Ardill

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #56 on: October 16, 2014, 10:47:57 am »

I finally got to my first use of Dorland's Wax Medium. Here is a link to instructions on applying that guided me (that and I my ancient experience applying pure beeswax to N surface darkroom prints). http://jacquardproducts.com/assets/jacquard-site/product-pages/waxes/Dorlands_Wax_Instructions.pdf

The print paper is Red River Polar Matte CS1 60#. The printer for this one was Canon Pro9000 MKII using Precision inks (dye ink). The print is cold mounted to foam core. Print was first coated with Print Guard. I used my heat gun to "melt or make soft" the wax. I used Scott Shop Towel (folded) to apply to print. I immediately wiped off excess, looked for thin areas and reapplied as I felt needed to leave no thin area. Areas too thick got heated up a bit to easier wipe off excess.


Well, I think it is beautiful. There is a bit more depth to my eye. As far as gloss, I do not see any - or enough that results in me thinking it is "glossy". It still is very much a matte surface. I have looked at it face on, from an angle in direct sunlight to look for reflectance etc. The blacks are as good as they ever were, which is good. Not effected in my experience.

My next step is apply to a print from the Epson 3880 with oem inks, and see if ink makes a difference. I project it will not, but hey, no guarantees. After that if it goes well, will be to apply to a rougher surfaced matte paper. In all cases I believe print should be precoated when matte. For gloss paper I have just used the Renaissance Wax without coating first, even on the Overlam when I use one (stops fingerprints really well).

Beware that the instructions specifically say thick coats = translucence instead of transparency.

Hope this is some use,
Cheers
Gary

Hi Gary,

I wonder if you could try something: print a strip of black (or very dark color) on your matte paper and apply the fixative/wax on one half and leave the other half unwaxed.  I would be very interested to know if you find that the waxed blacks/darks are as good as the unwaxed.

I've tried this using a load of different methods and waxes (Borland's and Michael Harding), with/without varnish (I don't have any Print Guard ... and this may be the key) and in all cases the unwaxed blacks are better (significantly better).  But you don't really see that without having the waxed and unwaxed side by side.

I've also tried it with prints made using an HPZ3100 and a Canon iPF6400 (same thing) but not an Epson ... so there could be differences there.

Robert

Robert
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Gary Damaskos

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2014, 11:53:48 am »

Hi Gary,

I wonder if you could try something: print a strip of black (or very dark color) on your matte paper and apply the fixative/wax on one half and leave the other half unwaxed.  I would be very interested to know if you find that the waxed blacks/darks are as good as the unwaxed.

I've tried this using a load of different methods and waxes (Borland's and Michael Harding), with/without varnish (I don't have any Print Guard ... and this may be the key) and in all cases the unwaxed blacks are better (significantly better).  But you don't really see that without having the waxed and unwaxed side by side.

I've also tried it with prints made using an HPZ3100 and a Canon iPF6400 (same thing) but not an Epson ... so there could be differences there.

Robert

Robert

OK. Could be a bit, but I will do this. Fyi - on the matte print I did do - it looks great and "feels" great to my fingers, smooth and like it is a repellent (sure I could be projecting - but it is doing repelling by it's nature).
Cheers,
Gary
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Robert Ardill

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2014, 12:04:58 pm »

OK. Could be a bit, but I will do this. Fyi - on the matte print I did do - it looks great and "feels" great to my fingers, smooth and like it is a repellent (sure I could be projecting - but it is doing repelling by it's nature).
Cheers,
Gary

That would be great Gary.  I really like the wax myself and use it all the time on traditional watercolor paintings ... and as you say it looks great and protects the painting wonderfully.  What I also like a lot is that it's a natural substance and one that has been used for generations for this sort of protection/preservation.

But I haven't had a great deal of success with inkjet prints - the lighter colors are totally fine and the was brings out the texture of the paper just fine ... but the blacks are very dark colors are not working for me.  It could well be that they key is the Lyson Print Guard (which I don't have so I can't try it myself until I get some).

Robert
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Some Guy

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Re: What are options to frame/protect prints without glass
« Reply #59 on: October 20, 2014, 12:12:18 pm »

I've used the Renaissance Wax with mixed results.  Sometimes it stains the blacks and cannot be evened out.  Seems very dependent on ink and paper combo.

Over a gloss optimizer it works well if you let it dry for a day.  I work small sections as it dries out pretty quick and can be very difficult to remove once dried on textured paper.

My preference is a GO coating first as it is very even.  Then move on to a HLVP spray with Premier Art "Print Shield" as next resort.

SG
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