May the battle begin: Actus vs. F-universalis

[Theodoros]

Not exactly the same weight.
To me the universalis is a F ("field") precise enough to be used with a MFDB, which is rather cool. If it lets me shoot some 4x5 and use a dslr too, I really couldn't ask for more (well, maybe more movements and/or tilt on the rear standard too...).

Both systems are intended to advance solutions while reducing costs... Additionally, they both propose the use of inexpensive MF lenses to reduce system size without affecting performance. IMO the Universalis is more directed to MFDB users, while Actus is rather targeting the use of FF mirrorless as replacing the use of an MF back... My impression is, that both systems will also find a lot of appreciation as front ends with high end cinema....

[Paul2660]

Arca newbie here:
How do you swing on the front standard of the Arca?  The Cambo has self-locking front tilt and swing, and looks very straightforward.  Overall, I like what I've seen from both cameras.

Cambo Actus video: http://youtu.be/JSVvDHPGbbA

I believe that the Universalis will have geared movement for front tilt and swing.  The M2 and DSLR2 both do.  In the attached picture, you can see the Universalis with a A7 body mounted to the back.  Note, I believe that a bellows will be needed, if an R lens is used, like with the M2.  The large knob in the front should be the swing or tilt, but not sure which.  There is also a Arca locking knob in the front, so not sure what that controls.  Another difference I see is that the front stardard has adjustment, up and down as does the rear, where as on the M2, only the rear standard had the up and down adjustment.  This is used both to help center the A7 on to the lens, and also provides rise and fall.  

On the the picture of the Universalis, looking directly below the A7r, you can see a geared track, which I am assuming is for camera body shift.

Paul

[Frederic_H]

I suspect the knob will be for geared tilt, which is a bit more useful than swing and where precision is necessary.
If you look at the picture from the other side (grabbed on CI blog) you'll see there are no other knobs, so no hidden geared shift or swing controls. There's a locking mechanism at the top of the front carrier though, no idea what it's used for.

[Paul2660]

Frederic

That's a good view and I agree looks like just the one knob most likely for tilt. I am wondering if the locking mechanism is swing?  Not controlled with a knob.

Paul

[Steve Hendrix]

My point is strictly that they take advance of the fact that there is no competition around... not that I won't be buying it or that people aren't forced to buy it (as they don't have an alternative if they need one)... I still think it may affect sales of the camera than what it could be if it was cheaper...

Isn't that true in general Theodoros? 

The essential equation is more concerning the projected sales and respective volume of profits from those sales at the given price points.

But I digress -

Back to your favorite topic - multi-shot digital backs. Typically the host digital back software will need compatibility with the given shutter for multi-shot capture (at least this has been the case with Sinar, their own shutter systems, as well as Hasselblad and Schneider/Rodenstock shutters. I'm pretty sure of this - even in the event of an external software utility (outside the host software) for controlling the electronic shutter (as was the case with the Jenoptik Eyelike digital backs with Schneider Electronic Shutter - or was that embedded?). No matter, in any case, external or embedded control module, the compatibility still needs to be there in the host software.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[RobertJ]

I already knew that was the geared tilt knob on the Arca, I just wasn't seeing where the swing is, and now I see that it's the same as the older Arca F line models.

[Theodoros]

But I digress -

Back to your favorite topic - multi-shot digital backs. Typically the host digital back software will need compatibility with the given shutter for multi-shot capture (at least this has been the case with Sinar, their own shutter systems, as well as Hasselblad and Schneider/Rodenstock shutters. I'm pretty sure of this - even in the event of an external software utility (outside the host software) for controlling the electronic shutter (as was the case with the Jenoptik Eyelike digital backs with Schneider Electronic Shutter - or was that embedded?). No matter, in any case, external or embedded control module, the compatibility still needs to be there in the host software.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

May be it will be a great idea if they develop adapter plates for the backs that are CPU compatible and then one would connect the shutter on the adapter... IMO it will be a good idea if they proceed even further than this to even develop dedicated lens mounts that will allow some MF owners that use large circle lenses (I know that most C645 lenses and all GX680 have sufficient circle to allow extensive movements on a 44x33 sensor) to share them on a tech camera and be able to control the aperture.
I am a fan of the idea that a photographer should use as little equipment as possible, yet with maximum ability and performance. There are people that would be thrilled by the idea of having an H5 or Rollei or C645 or other and be able to convert it onto a view camera by only adapting their backs and lenses on a different body....  C645 & H5 owners will have the additional benefit of investing on a Leica S(007) and even replace their DSLR systems.... That would be a real dream, wouldn't it? ....Only 5-7 lenses and three (quite compact) bodies, that would cover everything, yet being capable of optimal quality.

[geesbert]

Front swing of the universalis is done by pressing the button and swinging it. there are no gears, but the movement is quite smooth.


Anyway, I decided to get the Cambo and ordered it today.

My reasons:


- Better implementation of portrait/horizontal, the L-plate approach of the Arca is too clunky for my taste.
- proper old school arca rails which will fit all my tripod clamps
- both swing and tilt geared
- my local Calumet carries and supporte Cambo
- Cheaper by 25%

[Rod.Klukas]

With the Canon TS-E's you need a focal plane shutter and some electronic interface to control the aperture. Hartblei Hcam and Alpa FPS has this. Arca-Swiss got a focal plane shutter unit now, but I don't think they can control Canon lenses (yet). Correct me if I'm wrong.

The A7r sensor have crosstalk issues, and while the TS-Es won't bring it into crosstalk except in the very edge of the image circle (which is fuzzy anyway), tech wides will. Desaturation and demosaicing artifacts may follow. As it's subjective how much you can accept it's subjective how wide you can go. It also depends on how much you want to shift. Unfortunately I don't have any test files on A7r with tech wides, but have IQ250 files (equivalent to Credo 50) and from those I'd say if you keep within 25-30 degrees you're going to get fine image quality, and you can stretch it a bit in the corners and in horizontal orientation. The heavily retrofocus Canon TS-E delivers light at about 20 degrees at the image circle edge, and A7r show a little crosstalk there so I'd guess maybe that sensor is stable for 17 degrees or so.

Unfortunately there's no "max projection angle on the image plane" data in the lens data sheets. Since the wide lenses generally have quite large nodal point separation (meaning that the rear nodal point is considerable closer to the image plane than the center of the copal shutter, ie there's a steeper angle than one might expect) it's not so easy figured out from the available data sheets.

Schneider Digitar does have nodal point separation defined in their data sheets, but that does not really help that much as we need to know where the actual rear nodal point is. Anyway taking the flange focal distance, adding 5mm (to get to the center of the Copal) and then removing half nodal point separation seems to lead to an approximative position of the rear nodal point, which becomes equal to the focal length as these lenses are of symmetrical type. Angle is thus just the same as in the front, and thus the SK28XL delivers light at almost 60 degrees (!) at the image circle edge. Ie way past what the Sony CMOS sensors can do.

Rodenstock Digarons are retrofocus and unfortunately their data sheets don't have any nodal point separation specified so we can't do any approximation in the same way. Looking at a cross-section of one of these lenses it does seem like nodal point separation is quite big in these lenses, say 20mm or so. Then we can approximate the rear nodal point position as being flange focal distance + 5 - 20/2, ie flange focal distance - 5mm. Assuming this is right we get the following angles:

Digaron-S 23mm: arctan((70/2)/(44.8-5)) = 41 degrees at 70mm image circle edge
Digaron-S 28mm: 36 degrees
Digaron-S 35mm: 36 degrees
Digaron-S 60mm: 31 degrees

Digaron-W 32mm: 35 degrees at 90mm image circle
Digaron-W 40mm: 35 degrees
Digaron-W 50mm: 32 degrees

Using a laser pointer these angles could be verified, but unfortunately I don't have these lenses so I can't test (I have many of the symmetric Schneider Digitar lenses though). It does seem like Rodenstock have had some maximum angle of ~35 degrees as design target and adapted the degree of retrofocus to match that. The Rodenstock 32mm is thus more retrofocus (and more complex) than the 40mm, but will thanks to that not put the sensor more to the test than the 40. The 23mm seems to be an exception with a bit steeper angle. Nodal point separation can vary a lot between lenses though, so the actual value could be otherwise.

Anyway, with these angles it seems like you will with the Rodenstocks get some limitations with the Credo 50, and pretty large limitations with the A7r. Of course things get considerably worse with the Schneider Digitar lens line. If you would go to the 110 mm image circle edge of the 60XL you have 45 degrees angle there, ie more than the Digaron-S 28mm at its edge...

I have test files of IQ250 + 32 HR though. With the 32HR your trouble-free (very little desaturation and no demosaicing artifacts) zone is about 65-70mm image circle, which would put the IQ250 / Credo 50 limit at about 25 degrees. Or put it in other terms, you'll get 65-70mm image circle from the 32 and 40 and a little more with the 50 (but not full 90), and with the Digaron-S lenses 28 and 35 you get 50-55mm image circle (ie no shifting!). Depending on subject you can accept more crosstalk and expand this zone. With the A7r you get smaller circles, but on the other hand you have a smaller sensor and maybe you shift less then.

So the question "how wide would this go" is not so easily answered, unless you just say "it depends"...

Arca-Swiss, in conjunction with the launch of the FS shutter, showed the Canon Aperture control for use on the R series with the 17 or 24mm T/S
lenses, at the show as well.
We also have a focusing setup that makes using a rail camera super fast and accurate. It will work with any of our monorail bodies old or new since 1984.
Rod

[Theodoros]

Isn't that true in general Theodoros?  

The essential equation is more concerning the projected sales and respective volume of profits from those sales at the given price points.

But I digress -

Back to your favorite topic - multi-shot digital backs. Typically the host digital back software will need compatibility with the given shutter for multi-shot capture (at least this has been the case with Sinar, their own shutter systems, as well as Hasselblad and Schneider/Rodenstock shutters. I'm pretty sure of this - even in the event of an external software utility (outside the host software) for controlling the electronic shutter (as was the case with the Jenoptik Eyelike digital backs with Schneider Electronic Shutter - or was that embedded?). No matter, in any case, external or embedded control module, the compatibility still needs to be there in the host software.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

One more thing please Steven... would aperture of Contax 645 glass work with the Canon mount and additional Conorus adapter?  Would the R/C & MPU be compatible?  Thanks.

[wallpaperviking]

Hi,
     I would also be really interested to know if there was any way at all of using Contax 645 glass on these cameras?  I see that Alpa has figured out a way to do this with their "shift" adapter but I imagine this will be super expensive.

Ok, thanks a lot..

[Steve Hendrix]

Hi,
     I would also be really interested to know if there was any way at all of using Contax 645 glass on these cameras?  I see that Alpa has figured out a way to do this with their "shift" adapter but I imagine this will be super expensive.

Ok, thanks a lot..

There are additional lensboards under consideration by Cambo and Contax is one of them.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

[Brent Daniels]

In reading about the Universalis they mention a slimmer rail. Is the Universalis rail compatible with previous Arca gear that uses the "standard" rail.

[Rod.Klukas]

In reading about the Universalis they mention a slimmer rail. Is the Universalis rail compatible with previous Arca gear that uses the "standard" rail.

The Universalis uses the current, and standard for many years now,  Monorail on this and all of our rail cameras.
The R series also uses a small 'foot', which is a short rail piece.  This allows the extension kit to be implemented on the R series, as well.
This means that the DeX kit for focus and DoF calculator, will also retrofit any Arca-Swiss monorail camera, along with any other of the
elements of the DeX system added.
Arca, stands for All-aRound-CAmera, and we have stayed connected to that concept when ever possible.
Rod

[Brent Daniels]

Thanks for the info. I am looking for possible options to the front block on my m-line 6x9. I like wide angle lens for still life so it would be nice to have a smaller front standard unit. The M-Line front unit can get in the way when getting close to a subject & set.

[Rod.Klukas]

Your best option would be the front standard of a MF2 body.
It is smaller in size and so, does not have the full movement of the M line body,
but it will match the height of the rear. It has swing movement.  Using a front frame with Micro-Orbix tilt installed, as current M-line bodies are delivered,
 You will have the 2 movements for altering focus plane.

By the way most wide angle designs are not nearly as good as, normal to telephoto focal length lenses for close up/macro work.
The Schneider 47mm Apo-Digitar XL is an exception in that it works well in that instance with even an
80mp back. Shooting the 47mm with an 80mp back at infinity it has some drawbacks, however. Banding, etc.
The M-Two front function carrier is cat # 055003.
Be well,
Rod

[Brent Daniels]

Infinity ? If one is not shooting anywhere near infinity lens circles and such do not mean much. My pretty Arca is shy and never exposes herself outside the studio.

My favourite still life lens is the 47mm Schneider with a Hasselblad 39ms. I have longer lens. I just like the slightly wide look of the 47mm.  My second favourite lens is a Schneider Xenotar 80mm f2.8 that have programmed to my Rollei shutter. That lens writes so much nicer than my new 80mm.

The M-Line Two would be the same problem. I was thinking of the Function Carrier F-metric front. Much smaller to get into a set. It would give me swing, tilt, and side shift. I can live without up/down shift. Will the format frame from my M-Line front standard go on one of those?

[Rod.Klukas]

The metric front function carrier is too short for the rear monolith carrier. It will not center.
The front frame will fit into the Universalis front function carrier.
The rear accepts an ecentric frame specific to the Universalis.

As I stated above the 47mm is excellent up close.  An exception to the rule about wide angles up close.
Rod

[Rod.Klukas]

You might consider just ordering a complete Universalis and using all your Monolith accessories on it. Long and W/A bellows, extra rails etc.
It may end up being close in price.
Rod

[Theodoros]

There are additional lensboards under consideration by Cambo and Contax is one of them.


Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

Does this mean that there is assosiate accessories expected, like it happens with the Arca Universalis, which will include universal shutter, lens aperture control for electronic lenses etc... To develop the Actus system further? ...is there some additional information on how far Cambo plans to develop the system?

It seems to me, that we are facing a new era of view cameras where the view camera will be able to be integrated in an MF system (within its lens limitations) and just by replacing the body (keeping the used back and lenses) will be able to give all additional view camera advantages thus saving a fortune when compared with adding a complete system dedicated to movements...  Alpa's announcement of dedicated mounts (with full dedication) for C645, Hass H and Rollei 6000/HY6 lenses, enhances further that impression... It seems to me that:

1. Cambo is using the "Sony A7 instead of MFDB" solution as a basic standard which will develop further to adopt MFDBs (instead of FF mirrorless) for the future.
2. There are more makers (Sinar, Linhof etc) that will compete in the same market soon.
3. That old fashion LF is dead...
4. That the dedicated to LF (large image circle) lenses market will shrink considerably down to only the necessary that will be required to overcome MF limitations depending on the MF system used.
5. That LV quality will be the decisive factor for the new View/tech camera market.
6. That this market will have a bright future when used with Pro Video equipment. (I bet we'll soon see new filming techniques from directors)
7. That the makers who have "closed" systems will be considerably handicapped from those that support extensive modularity and corporation between systems (think about it Hassy and "open" your system completely).
8. That those that have retained older stuff to work with (C645, M-67, H-V, R-HY6/6xxx ...etc) will feel relieved.

It also seems that Leica is dedicated to supply the same service by replacing DSLR need for pros... I really hope that there will be (cheaper) followers in that path... Never the less, the good (excellent) news for those that use all kinds of equipment for all kinds of photography... is great! ...We'll soon need to carry ONE bag around boys... (and quality will shoot off the roof at the same time).