Help with better print profiles and colour knowledge.

[Onslow]

Morning All,
A bit of where I have come from to help understand what I am after.
I have been interested in photography since a kid. Got into it again 5 yrs ago after my wife died. Being a techie inquisitive sort of guy, I very quickly realised the importance of calibration for my monitor. I got my NEC with Spectraview coftware and a ColorMunki Photo. This served me well. I also use the ColorChecker Passport.
2 yrs ago, I purchased an Epson 3880. I made some profiles for it as well as paid for some "pro" profiles to compare. I thought the software was a touch limiting with some things I wanted to know etc. However, overall it was a good combo.
6 months ago I bought my Eizo. What a revelation!
I also had an out of the blue offer on a 2nd hand Epson 7800 which I snapped up at a bargain price.
I am president of my local photo club and assist a lot of the beginners (our club is around 60 strong and mainly beginners with around 6 members interested in knowing a lot more). Some of the other members have printers and have asked for assistance with profiles, calibration etc so unfortunately I am seen as the local guru. (I know I am not)
I live in an isolated region of Australia so when I visit the larger city with graphic arts supplies, I also pick up a new type of paper to play with as I don't have the luxury other times. If I like the paper, I then arrange for more to be shipped in.
I had always thought that IF I buy a large format printer that I would get a better calibrator in the form of the i1 Photo Pro2 so I could get better profiles. Knowing I tinker with other papers as well as other peoples papers I justified the purchase.
What I am after is to build my knowledge of color as well as calibration.
So, currently I have several questions.
Regarding color, I realise I am interested in understanding the basics a lot more. Hue, Saturation and Luminosity seem simple but I struggle to explain saturation to members. I also struggled to relate HSL to RGB. This made me realise I need a better grounding in colour theory. L, a and b is also a concept I struggle with. If the book(s) also assisted with colour management, gamuts etc this would be great. If I can't explain it to people, I don't understand it enough I figure.
Btw, I do realise this is a big topic and will take time for it to be absorbed. Time I have plenty of... What book(s) are generally recommended? I am not after "Color for Dummies"
Regarding my i1Photo Pro2, I have built a number of profiles in the last few months. They work and I am starting to get a small grasp on the process. However, I do find the help is uhm, basic or lacking. The videos don't  really answer my questions. I also have the LuLa C2P2S and have studied Jeffs video on building them and using the software. I don't understand what M0, M1 and M2 mean or do when getting setup for measurement.
When I build the profile, I have been selecting Dual Scan (M), M1, M2 and OBC). Why? I don't know but thought a dual scan must be better than single. I see it also measures OBC. Some of my papers have optical  brighteners in, others don't.
So, when doing this, which is the better option? Where can I find information on this in more detail? Time I have plenty of.

Display Adapters: NVIDIA Quadro K2000. 10 bit output activated in photoshop and the Eizo. Surprised to see that there was a noticeable difference actually.
Monitors: 2x; NEC MultiSync LCD2690WUXi2 1920 x 1200, Eizo CG277 2560 x 1440,
Calibrator X-Rite i1 Photo Pro2
Epson 3880 and an Epson 7800

Canson Infinity Platine Fibre Rag      PK
Canson Infinity Arches Aquarelle Rag    MK
Museo Portfolio Rag                 MK
Ilford Galerie Prestige Gold Mono Silk   PK
Ilford Galerie Prestige Smooth Pearl   PK
Chromajet Centurion Metallic Pearl   PK
Hahnemuhle Fine Art Baryta 325gsm   PK
Hahnemuhle FineArt Leonardo Canvas   PK
Hahnemuhle FineArt Monet Canvas   MK

Thanks for reading the long winded post..

[Tony Jay]

hi Onslow!

There is a somewhat dated book on Colour management written by amongst others - Jeff Schewe - excellent on principles but some of workflow issues are out of date.
There is also a newer book written by Andrew Rodney.
Both of these are available from Amazon but I think both come in ink and paper - no Kindle versions available.

As far a websites go - Andrew Rodney's site: http://www.digitaldog.net/ has lots of good resources.

BTW where in Oz are you?

Tony Jay

[Onslow]

hi Onslow!

There is a somewhat dated book on Colour management written by amongst others - Jeff Schewe - excellent on principles but some of workflow issues are out of date.
There is also a newer book written by Andrew Rodney.
Both of these are available from Amazon but I think both come in ink and paper - no Kindle versions available.

As far a websites go - Andrew Rodney's site: http://www.digitaldog.net/ has lots of good resources.

BTW where in Oz are you?

Tony Jay

G'day Tony, I'm in Whyalla up in the Iron Triangle region of SA. You...?
I have visited Rodneys site and shall revisit it again..
I much prefer hardbacks rather than electronic. I find them easier to use. I have Jeffs The Digital Negative, The Digital Print  as well as Real World image sharpening with Bruce Fraser. I have a few others but they are more application specific..

my website if you want a gander is
www.johnmurrayphotography.com.au
or contact me on facebook at
www.facebook.com/Onslowdaisy. I have my personal stuff and photography there

[Tony Jay]

The Eyre Peninsula is on the bucket list but as of now I have only explored parts of eastern SA.
I am based in Brisbane.

Took a look at you website - interesting stuff there.
I see that your interest in colour management is more than a passing one which is excellent.
Teaching colour management though is not for the faint-hearted since most of what the majority of photographers (even certain Pro's) know about it range from myth and rumour down to downright wrong.
I will draw your attention to other sites that do a good job of colour management information as they come to mind - in fact - an aussie site has just popped into my brain - Image Science - is a Melbourne-based company selling high-end everything for the photographic and printing trade and they have a fortune of excellent colour managment and printing information and tutorials on their site.
Take a look at them and see what you think.

Tony Jay

[Onslow]

The Eyre Peninsula is on the bucket list but as of now I have only explored parts of eastern SA.
I am based in Brisbane.

Took a look at you website - interesting stuff there.
I see that your interest in colour management is more than a passing one which is excellent.
Teaching colour management though is not for the faint-hearted since most of what the majority of photographers (even certain Pro's) know about it range from myth and rumour down to downright wrong.
I will draw your attention to other sites that do a good job of colour management information as they come to mind - in fact - an aussie site has just popped into my brain - Image Science - is a Melbourne-based company selling high-end everything for the photographic and printing trade and they have a fortune of excellent colour managment and printing information and tutorials on their site.
Take a look at them and see what you think.

Tony Jay

Cheers for that Tony. Glad you like the site. It is only a little site but I do offer things no one else does in my area.
I've been dealing with ImageScience for the last 5trs. I bought my NEC 26", ColorMunki Photo, Epson 3880 plus loads of papers etc from them. I have had a few discussions with Jeremy on the phone as he has assisted me with various specific problems with my gear. He was able to get my NECs panel replaced out of warranty after it had been developing shadows on it.
He was the one who really impressed the importance of the calibration of the system and it's components.
In regards to teaching colour management though, I agree, it's not for the faint hearted. I don't actually want to, I just don't want to lead people astray with explanations which are incorrect. I am ploughing through the sRGB vs aRGB Standup comic thread involving several youtube videos by Gary Fong. That is the sort of thing I wish to avoid.
I will stick m hand up if I don't know something but don't want to mislead the people who are asking me questions. As I say, I have a lot of beginners in my club. I am very aware that there is a lot of misinformation out there. I have had a few threads go off the rails oin FB photo groups when discussing these sort of issues. The number of times I've heard "I have a Mac so it doesn't need calibrating" from photographers complaining about prints is more than you would believe. So, I look to people who I believe are knowledgable on the subject. That way, I hopefully will learn new things while not spreading rubbish...

John AKA Onslow

[BobShaw]

Unfortunately you have just missed the Orpheus Island print workshop. I suggest that you put yourself down for that if you really want to learn about colour management and printing. Failing that the next best thing would be to get Les Walkling to make some print profiles for you. See http://www.leswalkling.com

I also recommend Image Science for everything paper.

[digitaldog]

When I build the profile, I have been selecting Dual Scan (M), M1, M2 and OBC). Why?

See the M specifications in this article:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/accessories/eye_one_pro_ii.shtml

[howardm]

See the M specifications in this article:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/accessories/eye_one_pro_ii.shtml

So in the final analysis, if the viewing conditions of the print are low/no UV (incand.,halogen,LED), then does it really matter if
OBA's are 'accounted for' via M1 or use UV-cut/M2?  Seems like most viewing is actually done under artificial low UV.

[Schewe]

There is a somewhat dated book on Colour management written by amongst others - Jeff Schewe - excellent on principles but some of workflow issues are out of date.

Uh, if you are referring to Real World Color Management, that was by Bruce Fraser, not me. I did take over the Real World Camera Raw series but not the color management book.

However, basic color management really hasn't changed for a decade. Yes, there are new instruments and software, but the principles of making and using profiles remain the same–with the possible exception of CM on Macs which Apple has pretty much screwed up :~(

[Tony Jay]

Uh, if you are referring to Real World Color Management, that was by Bruce Fraser, not me. I did take over the Real World Camera Raw series but not the color management book.

However, basic color management really hasn't changed for a decade. Yes, there are new instruments and software, but the principles of making and using profiles remain the same–with the possible exception of CM on Macs which Apple has pretty much screwed up :~(

My mistake - I did think that you were one of the authors though but it was recall from, obviously, a flawed memory.
The book itself - as stated lays an excellent groundwork for understanding colour management.

Tony Jay

[digitaldog]

Here's what to do. Bid on this ColorTron on ebay for $14.99. Throw the hardware in the trash. Read chapter 4 from the manual that covers color theory, written by Fred Bunting. I've yet to see a better treatise in this short space, aimed at non tech whinnies. I've got a copy myself and cherish it (the ColorTron is fun to have for the Spectrophotometer museum).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Colour-Sensor-Meter-by-Colortron-NEW-in-BOX-/151413201282?pt=BI_Heavy_Equipment_Parts&hash=item2340ee1982

[Onslow]

See the M specifications in this article:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/accessories/eye_one_pro_ii.shtml

Thanks for that Rodney,
I wasn't aware of this article. The OBC module is another area that had me puzzled and you have answered that there as well. So, it seems if I am reading the article correctly that it does come down to the viewing conditions as well as the OB amount in the papers. I use papers with and without OBAs. Would I be right then in thinking that for papers with no OBAs that a dual scan would still be preferable due to the possibility of UV in the print viewing area? My Canson Platine paper which I use a lot of has no OBAs. I have no copntrol over the final viewing conditions of prints that I sell but do want to give them the best chance to look good. For papers with OBAs, dual scan mode as well as single scan mode is suggested and then evaluate the profiles under different viewing conditions. Again, not knowing the final environment I would be guessing I suspect as to which one I would be using for the output.
Any thoughts on that?

[digitaldog]

So, it seems if I am reading the article correctly that it does come down to the viewing conditions as well as the OB amount in the papers.

Exactly. A visual compensation within the profile.
If you can't control the lighting, with high OBA's, not much you can do. Fluorescent lighting is the worst offenders. Good news is your eyes adapt to the illuminant and where issues crop up are with areas of neutral tone (B&W if you will). Dead nuts neutral is hard!

[Onslow]

Uh, if you are referring to Real World Color Management, that was by Bruce Fraser, not me. I did take over the Real World Camera Raw series but not the color management book.

However, basic color management really hasn't changed for a decade. Yes, there are new instruments and software, but the principles of making and using profiles remain the same–with the possible exception of CM on Macs which Apple has pretty much screwed up :~(

Jeff,
That book then is still a worthwhile buy then that will help address my shortcomings as described in my original post?

[Onslow]

Exactly. A visual compensation within the profile.
If you can't control the lighting, with high OBA's, not much you can do. Fluorescent lighting is the worst offenders. Good news is your eyes adapt to the illuminant and where issues crop up are with areas of neutral tone (B&W if you will). Dead nuts neutral is hard!

Bugger! I occasionally sell some (large for me) 24" x 40"+ B+W prints on the Gold Mono Silk which has OBAs. I have hung some of them in a gallery with excellent lighting. They do look good, but, they will be hanging next month in a space with a mixture of flouro, tungsten and daylight. The lighting is awful.
In that particular environment then, is it worth doing an ambient light measurement? I wonder as there are three sorts of light but 2 during night time viewing. How do you perform ambient light measurements with mixed light sources? I can take the laptop and i1 in to measure but then???
The image is from a smartphone with one of the B+Ws hanging in the gallery. The pic destroys the lighting but shows the type of B+W I do.

[digitaldog]

In that particular environment then, is it worth doing an ambient light measurement? I wonder as there are three sorts of light but 2 during night time viewing. How do you perform ambient light measurements with mixed light sources? I can take the laptop and i1 in to measure but then???

Up, i1Pro, ambient light head. Build profile with custom light measurement. But keep in mind, awful lighting is, well awful.

[Onslow]

Up, i1Pro, ambient light head. Build profile with custom light measurement. But keep in mind, awful lighting is, well awful.

Thanks for that. It really is awful lighting.
One thing that does concern me in this is the fact that some of my friends are asking me for custom profiles for their printers. I don't anticipate selling them btw.
For a standard profile from a commercial supplier, I think they would just run a particular combination of settings such as dual scan or single as the lighting conditions the prints are being viewed under will be unknown to them. Would that be a reasonable assumption or are there other factors that come into play by the commmercial profile suppliers?

[Onslow]

Here's what to do. Bid on this ColorTron on ebay for $14.99. Throw the hardware in the trash. Read chapter 4 from the manual that covers color theory, written by Fred Bunting. I've yet to see a better treatise in this short space, aimed at non tech whinnies. I've got a copy myself and cherish it (the ColorTron is fun to have for the Spectrophotometer museum).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Colour-Sensor-Meter-by-Colortron-NEW-in-BOX-/151413201282?pt=BI_Heavy_Equipment_Parts&hash=item2340ee1982

Bummer, I went to buy it but they don't ship to Oz....

Exactly. A visual compensation within the profile.
If you can't control the lighting, with high OBA's, not much you can do. Fluorescent lighting is the worst offenders. Good news is your eyes adapt to the illuminant and where issues crop up are with areas of neutral tone (B&W if you will). Dead nuts neutral is hard!

Hmm, I have two papers curing tonight and a friend has one. The two are Canson Arches Aquarelle Rag and Museo Portfolio Rag. Both have no optical brighteners. It would seem though still a reasonable process to process with Dual Scan. Am I correct in that Standard illuminants D50 and ICC version 2 are reasonable settings as well for a general use profile, not a specific print environment profile?

[howardm]

There's no reason NOT to do dual scan.  On the 'Calibrate' panel in the workflow, underneath that, select the Measurement Mode.  As I recall, you can do M0/1/2 *after* the actual scanning (ie. dual scan captures the data, measurement mode selects which of the data is used).  So, if you dual scan the target and save the measurement data, you can always go back and remake the profile w/ different illuminants, OBC etc etc

[Onslow]

There's no reason NOT to do dual scan.  On the 'Calibrate' panel in the workflow, underneath that, select the Measurement Mode.  As I recall, you can do M0/1/2 *after* the actual scanning (ie. dual scan captures the data, measurement mode selects which of the data is used).  So, if you dual scan the target and save the measurement data, you can always go back and remake the profile w/ different illuminants, OBC etc etc

Ah, thanks for that. I have been saving the measurement sets of the targets I have profiled so far.