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Author Topic: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)  (Read 9172 times)

David Eckels

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Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« on: September 20, 2014, 12:11:43 pm »

I bought a canvas sample pack from BC to try out on my Canon ipf8400. When I tried Lyve and Crystalline Satin, I scared the bejeezus out of myself. I have been printing on premium glossy paper with no problem. With the Lyve, I had some dark smudges along the edges, left to right, but not bad. With the Crystalline the head took a big gouge out of the side, knocked the paper sideways, but continued to print (I didn't discover this until I came back into my studio). Breathing Color was no help so I went down to my local print shop and they told me I needed to raise the print head, even though I was using the correct BC-supplied .am1 file/setting, which I assumed would set vacuum and print head height. I don't know if this is so or if it is sufficient to print on the 8.5x11 sheets because when I manually set the print head and vacuum to their highest settings and with crossed fingers ran a sheet of Crystalline through, the same set of events ensued! I have a few questions:

*Am I missing something?
*Is it a feature of the curl in such small sheets? I am aware that the ipf8400 is primarily intended as "roll printer" of course.
*Do the .am1 file in fact control these parameters?
*Can the .am1 file be edited?
*Is there a better vendor/supplier than Breathing Color and which might provide a little more responsiveness?
*The user's manual was not much help with anything other than the mechanics so is there another source of info?

If there is another thread that has discussed this, apologies, and please reference. I am quite disappointed with BC as I like their product offerings, but they have been silent on this issue  >:( Thankfully, my print head appears undamaged as two subsequent paper prints were clean and smoothly done. But I am now quite gun-shy about using canvas although I do like the look.
Any help or suggestions greatly appreciated.

Paul2660

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Re: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2014, 12:58:18 pm »

David,
I use Epson wide format, but here are some general thoughts.

1.  Make sure you have your platen gap set to wider or widest (I am sure Canon has a setting like this) basically the gap between the canvas and the head.  Canvas coming over the platen and the head.  I run wider with both Lyve and Crystalline.

2.  With Crystalline, it will tend to lip curl at the edges.  This tends to be worse right at the top of the canvas, where it's coming through the printer.  I will cut off a small triangle at the top of each edge.   The hard curl will tend to catch the head or cause head strikes.  Crystalline also needs to be kept wrapped up with a tight cover around it to help keep the canvas from curling.  Also it will tend to try to curl while on the printer, so you do need to watch it. 

I ended up losing a head to BC vibrance rag back in Nov of 2013.  It has the worse reverse curl I have ever seen.  The head hit the curl jumped over the paper lost alignment and slammed into the far side of the print.  Needless to say, I no longer use that paper.

I still use Lyve and Crystalline as they both make very nice prints, but you do have to watch Crystalline. 

The wider platen gap can also cause your blacks to lay down a bit strange, so you have to work out a bit of compromise.

I ended up having BC make a custom profile for me on Crystalline and it has worked very well with the platen gap set to wider. 

Paul
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Paul Caldwell
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Czornyj

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Re: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2014, 01:17:47 pm »

Increase the vacuum strength to strongest from the printer panel, there's no "strongest" option in MCT. The head height is irrelevant IMO.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2014, 01:19:34 pm by Czornyj »
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Marcin Kałuża | [URL=http://zarzadzaniebarwa

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Re: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2014, 02:36:01 pm »

I had lots of problems with their products as you mentioned. QC was pretty poor for some of what they shipped me. Dirty product, some bent and curled terribly.

They do have some nice IQ with their stuff. (some of it) But I found nothing spectacular that would cause me to use their problem ridden stuff over any other top brand like Hahn or other top names. Maybe they have improved since I tried their media - I don't know? I also did not test their product with special profiles. I used the 'in printer' profiles. The scope of the project I did using their product did not allow for special printing profiles.
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mstevensphoto

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Re: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2014, 03:20:49 pm »

I have essentially no problems with Lyve and won't touch crystalline or silverada. The edge curl gives me concern for serious damage potential and there is no avoiding it. there are so many quality control problems in those two canvases that I'm just not prepared to use them in any application. Lyve is a lovely canvas for many applications.
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David Eckels

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Re: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2014, 10:17:35 am »

Been away for awhile and have just got back to this. A few additional questions:

*My local print shop did a lovely 40x80 in canvas on Crystalline, yet recommends varnish. If I have to varnish anyway, why not just stick with Lyve?
*If I have Lyve .am1 and ICC files, changing platen gap/head height and vacuum strength can be made "sticky" or must they be set manually on the printer panel each time?
*Are there alternative canvases to BC Crystalline or Lyve from other mfrs that have fewer problems with edge curl? Or mfrs with better QC than Breathing Color? I will research Hahn, but other suggestions?

It is fun with having added printing to my workflow, seems like the old darkroom days when I could see a print relatively quickly, although part of me feels that these "issues" are just part and parcel of printing.

mstevensphoto

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Re: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2014, 11:33:04 am »

*My local print shop did a lovely 40x80 in canvas on Crystalline, yet recommends varnish. If I have to varnish anyway, why not just stick with Lyve?
*If I have Lyve .am1 and ICC files, changing platen gap/head height and vacuum strength can be made "sticky" or must they be set manually on the printer panel each time?


You should varnish anything going up for public display. if you print and then play with an unvarnished sample you will notice very quickly that the ink is susceptible to smudging and wearing off, especially with the introduction of ANY moisture.

If you use the Media Configuration Tool to alter your paper profiles (the .am1) you can make whatever changes you want stick so you never have to alter them again.

I find that the edge curl issues are not solved by vacuum strength. They are a quality control problem and although several other media choices offer a little curl, nothing folds up and gives you 1/4" of edge to strike like the Silverada does.
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tr4driver

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Re: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2015, 09:38:59 am »

Same problem here.  Ran a sheet of 13 x 19 Crystalline Satin through my iPF8400 this morning and fortunately caught it before any damage was done.   I've sent a picture to Breathing Color and am awaiting their response.

IMHO, this paper is unusable.

Kurt
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Some Guy

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Re: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2015, 10:09:09 am »

I had a bad strike with the Silverada.  Much like the OP, the head hit it and pushed it sideways even with Widest set.  I also believe it is what damaged my 3880 carriage in which a tab was broken off the part that raises and lowers the head even though it was D-rolled prior.

Edge curl is far too strong and maybe due to the thickness of the paper so I try and find papers under 310gms at max for the 3880.  It also had a lot of color ink bleed that bled into adjacent areas that even their own tech noticed when he tried.  Not cool.

SG
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David Eckels

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Re: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2015, 10:35:34 am »

Same problem here.  Ran a sheet of 13 x 19 Crystalline Satin through my iPF8400 this morning and fortunately caught it before any damage was done.   I've sent a picture to Breathing Color and am awaiting their response.

IMHO, this paper is unusable.

Kurt
Breathing Color will not respond. At least they never did to me. Please let me know if they do.

bill t.

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Re: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2015, 12:28:59 am »

Those having having edge curl problems should take a look at Hahnmuehle Photo Canvas 320.  It's rather soft at 16 mils thick and even at 6000 foot altitude my 8300 has no trouble holding down the edges well below head strike range, even when the interior humidity is down around 25%.

The texture is extremely fine, about 1/3 the scale of Lyve, so images print sharp.  The texture is not as relentlessly polarized as with most popular canvases, which gives the surface a rather natural, random look.  It's textured like Albrecht Dürer fine art paper, but a little finer.  It's just thick enough to mount on black Gator without losing brightness to transparency.  I have no idea what it's like to stretch.

The fine texture allows a very high gloss with three medium coats of varnish, which yields a print with minimum hazing when viewed in on-axis lighting situations such as on walls opposite windows or in rooms with low ceilings and lights near eye level.  Prints appear very rich even in daylight while also holding up at interior light levels.  Moderate OBA's.  The gamut is about the same as Lyve and most other matte media.  Does a good job on sky blues and landscapes in general.  Very good separation in bright areas and an overall bright, colorful look if that's what you like.

And it comes in 65 foot lengths, which is a big advantage if you're knocking out a lot of prints.  I think it's Hahn's "production canvas" product and I'll guess it's priced pretty cheap in the EU.  It's a little pricey at $1.50 per square foot in the US, but IMHO worth it.  Have used only one 24" roll which had no significant flaws and no seeds visible on the emulsion.

PS I really wish BC would offer their existing emulsions on thinner substrates.  It would solve so many problems.  On the reintroduction of Crystalline a few years ago the substrate was soft and around 18 mils thick with a beautiful, rather random art-paper surface to die for.  Was gorgeous.  Then it gradually morphed into today's product which for my money suffers because of it's needless, curl-inducing thickness and a stretch-friendly but mechanical looking weave.  I have a lot of pieces up from that original batch and whenever I see them it positively breaks my heart to think I can't reproduce that luscious, beautifully textured look.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2015, 12:33:26 am by bill t. »
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tr4driver

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Re: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2015, 07:33:46 pm »

Breathing Color will not respond. At least they never did to me. Please let me know if they do.

No response.

I'm trying to figure out how to manually raise the print head (and increase the vacuum).  The instructions from Breathing Color stated that the media type should be set to Special 4.  Are there settings in this setting that set the head height and vacuum setting?  I'm a little confused about the "Special" settings and what they actually mean.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Kurt
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bill t.

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Re: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2015, 08:08:22 pm »

The Special settings control how much black ink is applied.

Special 1 through 5 specify the amount of glossy ink to lay down.  "4" would apply almost the heaviest inkload, only "5" would apply more.

Special 6 through 10 are for matte inkload.  6 is the least, 10 is the most.  Lyve can take about a 9, which gives a pretty solid black as canvas goes.

You control the amount of vacuum, head height, and "special" setting through the Media Configuration Tool.  Start the software, select the media from the list, and click "Edit."  You can specify the amount for each media.  For canvas and any thick paper you definitely want the maximum vacuum and height.  Skip past the automatic media advance calibration, you don't need to go through that if it has albready been done previously.

On heavy media you will almost always get edge curl, especially on the 16 inch length of media hanging in the air between the roll and the printing platform, where it is especially subject to drying and then curling when the humidity is very low.  It only takes about 15 minutes off the roll to develop enough curl in that section to start getting head swipes on the edges.  Best practice is to rewind the media back on to the roll between sessions, even though that's a PITA and defeats the convenience of the automatic media recognition swatches that printer can use.  For stiff media with a lot of curl lengthwise, it is sometimes best to cut off about 6 or 7 inches of media before starting a printing session, that will always prevent swipes in that area when the printer has been idle for a while which causes a potent, local lengthwise curl to develop there.  BC favors heavy media substrates, and the associated curl issues discourage me from using their products in spite of their excellent emulsions which are in some cases best in class.

« Last Edit: January 05, 2015, 08:10:07 pm by bill t. »
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tr4driver

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Re: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2015, 09:45:26 am »

The Special settings control how much black ink is applied.

Special 1 through 5 specify the amount of glossy ink to lay down.  "4" would apply almost the heaviest inkload, only "5" would apply more.

Special 6 through 10 are for matte inkload.  6 is the least, 10 is the most.  Lyve can take about a 9, which gives a pretty solid black as canvas goes.

You control the amount of vacuum, head height, and "special" setting through the Media Configuration Tool.  Start the software, select the media from the list, and click "Edit."  You can specify the amount for each media.  For canvas and any thick paper you definitely want the maximum vacuum and height.  Skip past the automatic media advance calibration, you don't need to go through that if it has albready been done previously.

On heavy media you will almost always get edge curl, especially on the 16 inch length of media hanging in the air between the roll and the printing platform, where it is especially subject to drying and then curling when the humidity is very low.  It only takes about 15 minutes off the roll to develop enough curl in that section to start getting head swipes on the edges.  Best practice is to rewind the media back on to the roll between sessions, even though that's a PITA and defeats the convenience of the automatic media recognition swatches that printer can use.  For stiff media with a lot of curl lengthwise, it is sometimes best to cut off about 6 or 7 inches of media before starting a printing session, that will always prevent swipes in that area when the printer has been idle for a while which causes a potent, local lengthwise curl to develop there.  BC favors heavy media substrates, and the associated curl issues discourage me from using their products in spite of their excellent emulsions which are in some cases best in class.



Bill,

Thanks for the explanation and info!

Kurt
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alan a

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Re: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« Reply #14 on: January 06, 2015, 11:22:30 am »

I can't comment on the subject of Crystalline, as I have never used it -- but am ordering a roll to use with the 8400.  I am also ordering a sample roll of Silverado.  What do all of you think of that canvas, especially for prints with bright colors?

On the subject of customer service with Breathing Color, I have had a very different experience -- and an entirely positive experience.  I sent them an email asking about head strikes, and they responded almost immediately.  And they assigned a customer service rep to me several years ago, even though I have not purchased any canvas since that time.  Two different staff members of Breathing Color followed up on my email posing questions about head strikes.

In my email to Breathing Color, I forwarded the link to this thread, as I wanted to hear their response to these concerns before I tried Crystalline. They, of course, believe that these issues can be addressed, but I don't want to speak for Breathing Color, especially since I have not personally used the product in question.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2015, 11:36:33 am by alan a »
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bill t.

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Re: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« Reply #15 on: January 06, 2015, 02:10:35 pm »

BC has been very pro-active about customer support in my case.  I often hear from them and have had lengthy conversations on many subjects.  I know of no other media manufacturer that has anywhere near that level of support.  They are genuinely interested in their products.

Crystalline is a very colorful, glossy canvas that yields exceptionally rich looking prints not just for a canvas for any type of media.  It's gorgeous in the right light.

But I personally do not like the strongly polarized canvas surface weave (which is typical of most current canvas products) because of certain esoteric issues with surface reflections that affect my on-the-wall competitiveness in certain galleries using certain lighting arrangements.  That particular weave makes the canvas very stretch-friendly, at a cost in surface issues.  But many people like it.  It is theoretically possible to display it without glazing, coating, or any surface protection as long as that occurs in relatively benign environments.  But for hotels, public areas, and any place where there exist maids with Windex bottles and rags, survival on the wall will be very brief.  The tiniest drop of Windex or almost any cleanser will drill a millimeter-wide white hole in the unprotected emulsion.  Back in the day when the surface texture and lower thickness were more to my liking I used a lot of it, with coating applied, and to this day I am impressed by how good those older pieces look on display.

As for printing, I found it necessary to advance and cut and discard about 6 to 8 inches of media before printing when my 8300 printer had been idle for more than about 15 minutes, otherwise the curl that would develop in that the beginning of the print might cause head swipes.  Also, there was always small to sometimes large problem with head swipes along the edges due to edge curl-up that would develop over short idle periods.  My strategy was to print as much as possible per session, with minimum delay between prints, to avoid those problems which only occur at the very beginning of each printing session.  As long as the printer keeps going, those initial swipes will not occur.

These days I mostly stick with thinner media that exhibit little or none of the problems mentioned.  "Hand feel" is of zero interest to me, as I only sell framed pieces.  The extra hassles generated by thick, curl-prone media have no payoff for me.  I don't know exactly the cause, but since switching to more manageable media (and also upgrading to the latest firmware) my printheads have now reached impressive old age while still going strong, and in spite of heavy, almost daily printing my current maintenance tank has been in place for over a year, auto head cleanings are rare, and print quality is everything it was over 1000 days ago.  When the time comes there is a special place reserved in the highest rungs of heaven for that printer.
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tr4driver

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Re: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2015, 05:09:57 pm »

Update:  A BC representative contacted me by email today and requested some information about the environmental conditions of my print area.

To be clear, my issue is with 13 x 19 cut sheets.  I also have a 24" roll of Crystalline that has not exhibited any edge curl issues.  At this point, I'm hopeful that BC will work with me to resolve this issue.

Kurt
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bill t.

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Re: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2015, 01:08:24 am »

I'm tempted to say, cut a piece of rigid, heavy, 13 x 19 panel material that will press down the media inside the box when not in use, to prevent the media from even starting to curl, much less taking a set which is what has happened to yours.  I'm thinking a piece of 4mm Dibond might do the trick, debur the edges.  You could probably get your local signage or plastic supplier to cut one for you.  If they want to be nice to you they might have pieces about that size in their for-cheap scrap bins, rather than charging a 4x8 foot sheet minimum.

As an experiment take one of your curled sheets and lay books over it on a table, see what happens.  You could get daring and lightly wipe the back of the media with a slightly moist towel, prior to pressing.  The bottom line is that you're facing a humidity issue.

If you go the panel-press route, be sure it's not made out of corrugated cardboard which is known to yellow inkjet canvas.
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tr4driver

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Re: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2015, 02:47:12 pm »

UPDATE:

Breathing Color told me that they had had some QC issues with the batch that my 13x19 sheets came from, and that they would send me a replacement box at no charge.  It took several weeks, but the replacement box arrived a few days ago.  I got around to opening it up today, and the first thing that I noticed was that the batch number sticker had been scratched off.  This leads me to believe that they simply sent me a box from the same batch and didn't want me to be able to match the numbers.  When I opened the box I immediately noticed that the paper was curled even more than the first batch.  It's completely unuseable in my printer.

I just finished up a 24" roll of Crystalline, and it worked great once I started rolling the trailing material back on the roll between prints.  Before that I was getting some minor head strikes in the first few inches.

I think I'll just give up on the 13x19 sheets and try to return them for a refund.

Kurt
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tr4driver

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Re: Head strikes with canvas from Breathing Color (Canon ipf8400)
« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2015, 09:16:48 pm »

FINAL UPDATE:

Breathing color has agreed to accept the curled sheets for a full refund.  As disappointed as I am with the sheet curling issue, I'm equally impressed with their customer service.  They have worked very hard to address the issue, but in the end I just don't think the Crystalline cut sheets are practical.  I'm having good success with the Crystalline roll media and will continue to use it.

Kurt
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