H4D body only, no value?

[voidshatter]

The Hasselblad is a bit noisy in the shadows but I can deal with that.

Given that you are a Canon shooter, would you mind sharing your techniques of working around the relatively low dynamic range, especially how to deal with noise in the shadow? I am a long exposure addict (typically 2-4 minutes for each exposure, with ND 3.0 during daylight), and moving from a D800E (Sony sensor) to an IQ260 (Dalsa CCD) is a pain in the ass when dealing with high contrast scenes.

If I do exposure bracketing with the ND filter on (long exposure) and off (quick exposure), the angle of view of my ultra wide angle lens would change slightly due to removing the ND filter, and there will be 2-3 pixels out of alignment in the corners of the picture; if I do exposure bracketing with the ND filter always on, then it is too time consuming (especially for quick light changing conditions e.g. sunset) since the dark frame noise reduction is indispensable for a CCD sensor.

Do you have specific techniques of aligning two exposures while blending? My problem is not about tonal mapping or whatsoever, but the alignment of two exposures.

[jerome_m]

I mean that it's possible to differ between a tack sharp and an almost sharp image. With the exception of the Aptus series none of the older backs provide that feature. You can zoom to 100% on all, but they render the image too soft so you can't see if it's tack sharp or just almost.

The newer H4D-50 should have the newer screen and with the latest firmware a one click 100% focus check feature, which I assume is usable. Haven't seen it in person yet so I don't know for sure. If it's not good I'm mistaken and then I see no reason to choose a H4D-50 over the self-contained CFV-50.

I did not notice much difference between the H3DII-50 (the one I am considering parting with) and the H4D-50 in that respect. I will test wether that H4D-50 has the latest firmware and report back tomorrow.

[torger]

Given that you are a Canon shooter, would you mind sharing your techniques of working around the relatively low dynamic range, especially how to deal with noise in the shadow? I am a long exposure addict (typically 2-4 minutes for each exposure, with ND 3.0 during daylight), and moving from a D800E (Sony sensor) to an IQ260 (Dalsa CCD) is a pain in the ass when dealing with high contrast scenes.

If I do exposure bracketing with the ND filter on (long exposure) and off (quick exposure), the angle of view of my ultra wide angle lens would change slightly due to removing the ND filter, and there will be 2-3 pixels out of alignment in the corners of the picture; if I do exposure bracketing with the ND filter always on, then it is too time consuming (especially for quick light changing conditions e.g. sunset) since the dark frame noise reduction is indispensable for a CCD sensor.

Do you have specific techniques of aligning two exposures while blending? My problem is not about tonal mapping or whatsoever, but the alignment of two exposures.

I rarely shoot landscapes with my Canon these days, I use my Aptus 75, which has better DR than the Canon but still not state of the art, I'd say it's similar in noise to the Kodak-based Hasselblad 50 megapixel backs. Today I use the Canon mostly for high ISO action and then it's good.

I do bracketing at merging at times though, I use my own Lumariver HDR for that. As any HDR merger it can adapt for camera movement between pictures, but your problem seem to be something else? I don't fully understand why the field of view would change by removing the ND filter, usually such change only occurs if you shift focus, but I guess the ultra wide angle means there's some refraction in the filter causing a slight change. Maybe you could use a focus stacking software in some way, they have features to adapt for changed field of view. In this case I guess the change is very slight and non-linear so possible one have to develop a new algorithm to take this into account. Interesting... could be a feature to add to Lumariver HDR.

My Aptus can only do 30 sec so obviously I don't do long exposures much and haven't experienced this problem.

More often than bracketing I use graduated NDs, just for exposure to avoid the need of bracketing, I keep the grad on when taking the LCC so I cancel it out in post and apply regular tonemapping.

[torger]

I did not notice much difference between the H3DII-50 (the one I am considering parting with) and the H4D-50 in that respect. I will test wether that H4D-50 has the latest firmware and report back tomorrow.

Thanks, that would be great! I read on Hasselblad's homepage that the latest firmware features (improved screen resolution and one click focus check) will only work for H4D-50 backs that are new and not an upgraded H3DII-50, which I assume is because the upgraded has the same screen hardware as the H3DII-50, while the new should have the same screen as the H4D-60, which I think is a 460x320 screen, while the old is 320x240. Working focus check is not so much about screen resolution though, but that the demosaicer in the back makes a sharp render of the 100% view. Older Hasselblads don't, meaning that 100% always look a bit soft in the back so you can't see if you really nailed it or if you just almost nailed it.

H4D feature set is a bit confusing due to that some units are upgraded (and thus has less features than the new H4Ds), and that the H4D-60 has some extra features that the other H4Ds don't have. I *think* the H4D-60 can be run with a battery adapter just like the H5Ds, while the other H4Ds like the H4D-50 I'm looking at need power through Firewire, for example using a Silvestri battery.

[Enda Cavanagh]

You do come across backs only for sale. You just have to be patient. I sold my Cambo system to a friend who than bought the H3D 39 back only on ebay for a great price. Sometimes you see the camera body only for sale. Sometimes you see the back only for sale. You can sell on the body if you have no need for it. More people would have need for either the back or the camera with back but I'm sure there would be someone who would be happy to buy it off you (say someone who damages their body) and like you mentioned the H4D 50 does have advantages over the H3D 50ii.

[Theodoros]

You do come across backs only for sale. You just have to be patient. I sold my Cambo system to a friend who than bought the H3D 39 back only on ebay for a great price. Sometimes you see the camera body only for sale. Sometimes you see the back only for sale. You can sell on the body if you have no need for it. More people would have need for either the back or the camera with back but I'm sure there would be someone who would be happy to buy it off you (say someone who damages their body) and like you mentioned the H4D 50 does have advantages over the H3D 50ii.

What are you talking about? ...the body DOESN'T WORK even if used on another D4-50 body...  In other words it doesn't work "naked" but neither if you "dress it up"... It's a camera you buy... a DSLR... it's not compatible with other H4-50s... the only difference from a DSLR is that you may take the back of it, find a way to power it (easy)... and use it on a view camera... that's about it! (with H3/H3ii & H4 only).

[Enda Cavanagh]

What are you talking about? ...the body DOESN'T WORK even if used on another D4-50 body...  In other words it doesn't work "naked" but neither if you "dress it up"... It's a camera you buy... a DSLR... it's not compatible with other H4-50s... the only difference from a DSLR is that you may take the back of it, find a way to power it (easy)... and use it on a view camera... that's about it! (with H3/H3ii & H4 only).

As previously stated a H4D 50 back and a H4D50 camera body can be calibrated by Hasselblad to correct any variations. As he is a view camera user I would suggest Torger just keeps looking for a back only. As mentioned backs only do come available, just less often.

[Enda Cavanagh]

What are you talking about? ...the body DOESN'T WORK even if used on another D4-50 body... 

That's right Theodros the body doesn't work on another body even if you tape the 2 of them together. I would make a smiley face but I can't be bothered

[Theodoros]

That's right Theodros the body doesn't work on another body even if you tape the 2 of them together. I would make a smiley face but I can't be bothered

What are you talking about? (again)...? You never mentioned you was referring on some one sending a body to Hassy as to have it "made for a back"... You said it like the body was "shareable" to any H4D-50... Do you know how much this (sending a body to be compatible with a back) costs? ...A PRICE THAT THE CAMERA WILL NEVER WORTH... Sooo... what "sell it to another H4D-50 user means? ...Is there a customer?

EDIT: I thought we are talking "sensible" here... Not proposing the inevitable (after looking for the mistakes we do as posts in the web and try to "correct" them) as solutions...

[jerome_m]

I did not notice much difference between the H3DII-50 (the one I am considering parting with) and the H4D-50 in that respect. I will test wether that H4D-50 has the latest firmware and report back tomorrow.

I tried a direct comparison today (the two cameras have the latest firmware on). I duplicated a card, so that the two cameras show the same picture. The new screen is indeed a bit better, I'll join a picture to this message. The H4D is also noticeably faster to zoom in.

The new screen is better, but the difference is not like day and night. Besides, the screens (either one) are almost impossible to see outside under the sun.

As to the "focus check" function, you will not be able to use it: you need to press a button on the camera (not on the back). Even on the camera, the function does not appear very useful to me:
-you need to assign a key to it (and therefore lose another function like mirror up, ae lock, etc...)
-it only works right after having taken a picture, not afterwards (or I don't know how...)
-it zooms on the center of the screen (not on the true focus location, I believe this is H5D only) and you cannot move around (or I did not find how...).

I think I will simply continue my practice to press the zoom rocker a few times to check the focus. It is almost as fast and then I can move around.

Something else which you may not know: H backs have a kind of live view mode when tethered to allow focussing. It is probably the best choice when using them on a technical camera.

[jerome_m]

I *think* the H4D-60 can be run with a battery adapter just like the H5Ds, while the other H4Ds like the H4D-50 I'm looking at need power through Firewire, for example using a Silvestri battery.

This is what Hasselblad *thinks* as well... http://www.hasselblad.com/media/4517973/battery%20adapter%203053310%20datasheet%20v1.pdf

[Enda Cavanagh]

What are you talking about? (again)...? You never mentioned you was referring on some one sending a body to Hassy as to have it "made for a back"... You said it like the body was "shareable" to any H4D-50... Do you know how much this (sending a body to be compatible with a back) costs? ...A PRICE THAT THE CAMERA WILL NEVER WORTH... Sooo... what "sell it to another H4D-50 user means? ...Is there a customer?

EDIT: I thought we are talking "sensible" here... Not proposing the inevitable (after looking for the mistakes we do as posts in the web and try to "correct" them) as solutions...

As usual your stupid ranting deflects from the original poster's query so that you can get on your little pedestal and inflate your little ego. I don't care about your ranting Theodoros. It bores me. My point to Thorgor is that he should wait until a back only comes on the market. They do come one the market because I have already seen them come on the market. I don't give a crap why they come on the market as a back only. All I do know is that they do appear and have been bought and sold. Additionally I also see bodies only coming on the market which have been bought and sold. 

[Theodoros]

As usual your stupid ranting deflects from the original poster's query so that you can get on your little pedestal and inflate your little ego. I don't care about your ranting Theodoros. It bores me. My point to Thorgor is that he should wait until a back only comes on the market. They do come one the market because I have already seen them come on the market. I don't give a crap why they come on the market as a back only. All I do know is that they do appear and have been bought and sold. Additionally I also see bodies only coming on the market which have been bought and sold. 

That wasn't my question... as is obvious! But anyway... since the poster only needs the back, may you repeat your proposal on what he would do with the body? ....thanks!

[jerome_m]

If I do exposure bracketing with the ND filter on (long exposure) and off (quick exposure), the angle of view of my ultra wide angle lens would change slightly due to removing the ND filter, and there will be 2-3 pixels out of alignment in the corners of the picture

I cannot answer you other questions, but I can suggest another option: if, instead of simply removing your ND filter, you replace it with a clear filter of the same thickness, you should not see any change in alignment any more.

[torger]

I tried a direct comparison today. I duplicated a card, so that the two cameras show the same picture. The new screen is indeed a bit better, I'll join a picture to this message. The H4D is also noticeably faster to zoom in.

The new screen is better, but the difference is not like day and night. Besides, the screens (either one) are almost impossible to see outside under the sun.

As to the "focus check" function, you will not be able to use it: you need to press a button on the camera (not on the back). Even on the camera, the function does not appear very useful to me:
-you need to assign a key to it (and therefore lose another function like mirror up, ae lock, etc...)
-it only works right after having taken a picture, not afterwards (or I don't know how...)
-it zooms on the center of the screen (not on the true focus location, I believe this is H5D only) and you cannot move around (or I did not find how...).

I think I will simply continue my practice to press the zoom rocker a few times to check the focus. It is almost as fast and then I can move around.

Something else which you may not know: H backs have a kind of live view mode when tethered to allow focussing. It is probably the best choice when using them on a technical camera.

As long as I can zoom in to 100% it's okay, don't need a one click function. I use an Aptus 75 today, that screen is probably the worst screen ever made concerning visibility in sunlight, but still I manage. What you do is to shade the screen with the hand, and in really tough direct light (rare) I simply use the focusing cloth I have with me for the ground glass (rarely need to use that either, thanks to the bright ground glass on the Techno). It's only 320x240 pixels too, but the thing is that when something is sharp you see jaggies and aliasing, so although the 100% zoom is not exactly beautiful it's possible to figure out if it's going to be tack sharp or not when I bring it up on the computer screen at home. So this old Aptus zoom is what I compare with, if it works as good as that, it's good enough for me. With the Aptus 75 it takes some learning to understand how the back renders the images so one can understand if what you see is sharp or not. The screen is bad and low contrast so it's not like looking 100% on a computer screen were you can distinguish even finer grades of critically sharp, but it's good enough so you know that if it looks sharp on the Aptus screen you won't be disappointed when you get home and look at the file on the computer.

The typical problem with all the other older backs is not too much that the screens are bad (which they indeed are) but that the 100% zoom is showing a soft image without jaggies regardless if it's tack sharp or just almost.

Thanks for the photos. I guess the left is the H3DII-50 and the right is the H4D-50. From the picture it seems to me that the H4D-50 does render the sharp parts with jaggies, while the H3DII-50 renders those parts smooth and soft. That is, it's considerably easier to see if an image is critically sharp on the H4D-50 back than on the H3DII-50, look along edges and see if they're jagged - then it's sharp.

I backpack with my gear in quite tough conditions, so bringing a computer with me is not really a good option. I'm quite skilled at ground glass focusing so I extremely rarely do mistakes, but there are times when it feels good to be able to focus check. Especially when doing tilt/swing tradeoff compositions when I may want to check some particular detail here and there. With the ground glass you can focus peak at a point, but you can't really go to the extreme corner and see if the tilt did not pull the subject slightly out of focus there and such things.

[jerome_m]

Thanks for the photos. I guess the left is the H3DII-50 and the right is the H4D-50. From the picture it seems to me that the H4D-50 does render the sharp parts with jaggies, while the H3DII-50 renders those parts smooth and soft. That is, it's considerably easier to see if an image is critically sharp on the H4D-50 back than on the H3DII-50, look along edges and see if they're jagged - then it's sharp.

Photography of screens never give the same impression as the real thing. To my eyes, the H3DII-50 shows a bit more "jaggies", but these may not be linked to focus. I think that focus is a bit easier to see on the H4D-50, but not by much.

[torger]

Photography of screens never give the same impression as the real thing. To my eyes, the H3DII-50 shows a bit more "jaggies", but these may not be linked to focus. I think that focus is a bit easier to see on the H4D-50, but not by much.

Ok.

I see one difference that may mean that both the Hasselblad screens has a bit worse visibility for 100% view. My ancient Aptus screen have square pixels (each pixel consists of a narrow red, narrow blue and narrow green subpixel) just as on a normal computer screen, while the Hasselblad screen seems to be of some other type and the subpixel structure looks a bit fuzzy in itself, ie you don't have the same clear grid of squares, which makes the 100% view a bit harder to interpret.

Basically it's the screen that have me focused on the H4D-50 rather than the H3DII-50 or CFV-50, but it seems like the difference is a bit smaller than I hoped for. I'm quite sure that the older screen is not up for the task, but it's now less clear if the little step up with the H4D-50 makes a real difference. I still think so, but I guess I need to see for myself at some point.

[Shrev94412]

With the H4D model cameras I believe one could buy a separate spare body. This body had to be calibrated to the back at the factory to correct for any build variations and ensure exact chip alignment. You may want to check if this unwanted body of yours could be on sold as a spare body to a H4D user?

The H4D body & back does allow you to do a few things a tech camera cannot do. The camera can be focused, exposure settings adjusted, and fired tethered via fire wire. There are times it is just not possible to directly operate the camera without being in the frame, blocking light, or when booming the camera off a cliff edge. Just lately I put a camera up into the top corner of a room to get the view we wanted. Worked great.

Since you are basically getting the camera for free?

This is true.....There is not an external battery option for the H4D series backs as there is no port on the back for a battery or sync cable. And, The H4D 40 uses micro lenses so it will not work on a tech camera anyway. If you want to put a Hassey back on a tech camera you will have to buy an H5D series camera and digital back as they only sell together and are calibrated as one. Which is awesome if you use the camera body (Which I love although other on LL do not). Hasselblad is just now finally coming out with their "External Battery" solution for the H5D cameras. How do I know? because i just demoed one in in the last few weeks. It uses a Sony mainstream lithium battery. The ports for the battery and sync cable are on the bottom of the back. I mounted it right up on my Alpa STC and using Hyperfocal focusing and the Alpa HPF ring on an Alpa 32mm SB17 lens it works flawlessly. What I didn't like is that it is alot of stuff hanging off everywhere but I believe that it just goes with the territory of using Tech Cameras and Digital back...Lots of pieces...LOL. I love Hasselblad Cameras....I think their color is the best over my Nikon D800E and my Phase IQ180. but resolution and DR on the Phase is amazing. Regardless of how good these MF backs are they cannot focus track like my Nikon D800E or D4. Each system has its perks and downfalls. You just gotta find what works best for you. IMO. Sorry Rambling....

[tjv]

Just to clarify – I don't know if I'm misreading the above post or not – but you can use the H3Dii-50 and H4D-50 backs on a technical camera with an external battery solution, which Silvestri make. It's not as elegant as the H5D solution or, better still, the IQ series, but it's not that cumbersome in practice.

[Peter Devos]

you can also use any H3dII digital back on any h3dII or H4d body. I happen to have a H3dII-39 back with a broken body. But i can use the back on all my other H3dII and H4 bodies. Calibration is off probably but i have never noticed any problems or so. I never tried true focus with the H3dII-39 back on my H4 but it will probably more or less also work just fine :-)
On the internet there are many examples of how to attach a 9-14 volt battery to a Fire wire 800. So using a Hassy back on a TC does not have to be that big of a problem. Before i used my H4 bodie on the H3DII-39 back i made a contraption of an image bank under an older H1 body and used the lens sync setting to fire the back on the H1. But don't forget to put some very thin insulation tape over the contacts of the camera body other wise the camera will give error messages such as back has no power or simply no back attached :-)
Best Peter.