Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400  (Read 21184 times)

samueljohnchia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #60 on: October 15, 2014, 12:45:01 pm »

1. Spectral data is not important. Don't forget that until the X4XX printers, this was never available, and people could still make excellent prints, as they can do now. I have not seen any evidence of spectral data providing any significant benefits to print output quality.

I forgot to mention that Canon is marketing the ability to perform color calibration-links across all the X4XX printers (not possible on all the older models) and I believe this is why the .am1 files supporting spectral data and unique calibrations were introduced. Without this, it would be impossible to get two or more printers to within 2 dE2k of each other. That's what they claim is possible. I think this is why I and Geraldo do not see any real improvement in print quality/accuracy with unique calibration. Basically because there is no improvement.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2014, 12:48:37 pm by samueljohnchia »
Logged

samueljohnchia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #61 on: October 15, 2014, 12:47:57 pm »

The only thing is though that if you only do a common calibration then you really have to profile all the papers (can't use manufacturer profiles, for example).  But as Geraldo says the Canson profiles are quite poor, reprofiling seems necessary anyway.

You have an i1 Pro 2 and i1Profiler and Argyll. You are in a good position to create far better profiles. Do it!  :)

Quote
Seems like the Canon printheads must be much more stable.

I think so too. HP heads are the least consistent, Canon a bit more and Epsons are the most consistent.

Logged

fetish

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 154
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #62 on: October 15, 2014, 12:51:32 pm »

But epson heads are horrendously expensive to replace.  :P
Logged

Robert Ardill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 658
    • Images of Ireland
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #63 on: October 15, 2014, 01:17:59 pm »

Hi JRSmit, thanks for clarifying. But I'm pretty sure I saw the head height names correspond to exact mm values somewhere...

Haha I found it! Service manual of the iPF8300, page 222 and 250.

Super Low - 1.2mm
Lowest - 1.4mm
Low - 1.8mm
Standard - 2.0mm
High - 2.2mm
Highest 2.6mm

Based on this you would think that Super Low would be OK for everything except front-loading of boards.  I see that the user manual recommends Automatic.  The Canson Platine is less than 0.6mm thick, so a setting of Automatic should be OK I would have thought.

I noticed that the blue borderless printing switches were set to borderless ... could account for the scuffing at the sides of the paper I guess.

Robert
Logged
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. - George Santayana

Robert Ardill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 658
    • Images of Ireland
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #64 on: October 15, 2014, 01:19:29 pm »

I forgot to mention that Canon is marketing the ability to perform color calibration-links across all the X4XX printers (not possible on all the older models) and I believe this is why the .am1 files supporting spectral data and unique calibrations were introduced. Without this, it would be impossible to get two or more printers to within 2 dE2k of each other. That's what they claim is possible. I think this is why I and Geraldo do not see any real improvement in print quality/accuracy with unique calibration. Basically because there is no improvement.

It's good when things make sense :)
Logged
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. - George Santayana

Robert Ardill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 658
    • Images of Ireland
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #65 on: October 15, 2014, 01:29:36 pm »

You have an i1 Pro 2 and i1Profiler and Argyll. You are in a good position to create far better profiles. Do it!  :)


Yes, for sure!  I'm a bit spoilt for choice.  I have no idea how one would compare the quality of the Xrite versus Argyll profiles. One thing that is almost definitely superior with the Argyll profiling is that it's possible to generate image-specific profiles: which can improve Perceptual mapping a whole lot (particularly if one is printing from a very wide working space like ProPhoto to a small gamut destination like a matte paper).  But it's one of these quite time-consuming (but easy to do) operations as the profile has to be generated for each image.  On the other hand, if there was a batch of images one could just kick off the profiling and go and have a sleep and the profiles would all be ready when you woke up :).

Robert
Logged
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. - George Santayana

samueljohnchia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #66 on: October 15, 2014, 09:30:30 pm »

But epson heads are horrendously expensive to replace.  :P

What is the price when buying a head from Epson?

Canon is now recommending users replace both printheads every year, at the cost of some $1000 a year. I don't think it is any cheaper over time.
Logged

samueljohnchia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #67 on: October 15, 2014, 09:34:41 pm »

Based on this you would think that Super Low would be OK for everything except front-loading of boards.

Robert, some problems here. You are going to be damaging your carriage and print heads prematurely if you set it that low all the time.

Have a look first at which media settings support super low head height - not all do.

The paper may be thin enough to fit under the head, but due to various factors like paper not lying flat, curl from roll, humidity, ink load etc, it will bulge higher than usual. I'm also not confident that the lowest point of the carriage is always exactly 1.2mm over the platen.

Logged

samueljohnchia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #68 on: October 15, 2014, 09:44:03 pm »

Yes, for sure!  I'm a bit spoilt for choice.  I have no idea how one would compare the quality of the Xrite versus Argyll profiles. One thing that is almost definitely superior with the Argyll profiling is that it's possible to generate image-specific profiles: which can improve Perceptual mapping a whole lot (particularly if one is printing from a very wide working space like ProPhoto to a small gamut destination like a matte paper).  But it's one of these quite time-consuming (but easy to do) operations as the profile has to be generated for each image.  On the other hand, if there was a batch of images one could just kick off the profiling and go and have a sleep and the profiles would all be ready when you woke up :).

Robert

That is something I have been meaning to test. The perceptual rendering from i1Profiler is fantastic mostly. I would love to see if it can be bettered.

You test profile quality the same way you have been testing your profile conversions with Bill's balls and Andrew's picture. Plus make some prints. A lot of prints. Soft proofing helps a lot to catch the main behavior without wasting too much paper and time. Color geek software can be useful to provide some quantification of your results. You have posted a lot on that; I believe you know what to look out for, the usual suspects. It is nice to know the behavior of the various profiling engines, but no one is publishing this information, and it is ridiculously time consuming and expensive to test. I have been doing a lot of that last year, but i1Profiler has updated their color engine again.

Funnily enough, softproofing in Photoshop is not very precise but I don't know why no one has pointed it out before. Soft proofing in the Canon 16 bit plug-in is more accurate. Often I would see gradients soft proof as smooth in Photoshop, but print with slight banding. Sometimes there is tone and color shifts not present in the actual prints. Soft proofing in the Canon plug-in shows the banding, and the correct rendering of tone and color. There are other issues too, but that is a whole different topic...
Logged

fetish

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 154
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #69 on: October 16, 2014, 07:23:14 am »

About 2-3K per head replacement. And the capping station needs to be replaced along with the head, plus the ink needed to prime the new head. Ouch.
Logged

Robert Ardill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 658
    • Images of Ireland
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #70 on: October 16, 2014, 10:18:28 am »

That is something I have been meaning to test. The perceptual rendering from i1Profiler is fantastic mostly. I would love to see if it can be bettered.

You test profile quality the same way you have been testing your profile conversions with Bill's balls and Andrew's picture. Plus make some prints. A lot of prints. Soft proofing helps a lot to catch the main behavior without wasting too much paper and time. Color geek software can be useful to provide some quantification of your results. You have posted a lot on that; I believe you know what to look out for, the usual suspects. It is nice to know the behavior of the various profiling engines, but no one is publishing this information, and it is ridiculously time consuming and expensive to test. I have been doing a lot of that last year, but i1Profiler has updated their color engine again.

Funnily enough, softproofing in Photoshop is not very precise but I don't know why no one has pointed it out before. Soft proofing in the Canon 16 bit plug-in is more accurate. Often I would see gradients soft proof as smooth in Photoshop, but print with slight banding. Sometimes there is tone and color shifts not present in the actual prints. Soft proofing in the Canon plug-in shows the banding, and the correct rendering of tone and color. There are other issues too, but that is a whole different topic...

Yes, Andrew's balls can be of some use for this sort of test alright.  Still - it ends up being very specific and in the case of the balls we're dealing with 100% saturated colors in ProPhoto, so using an intelligent mapping isn't going to be much better than using the CMM (if at all).  The real benefit will be when using a workspace like ProPhoto, but with colors that are not too far out of the destination gamut.

I think i1Profiler uses a combination relative/perceptual mapping for the perceptual mappings, possibly with colors not too far out of gamut being mapped perceptually and colors well out of gamut being mapped colorimetrically ... or something along those lines.  It's entirely up to the profile maker what sort of algorithm to use and unfortunately XRite don't tell us how they do their perceptual mappings.

I'm not sure if I posted this elsewhere, but here is a Perl script to do the perceptual mapping using Argyll (call the script perceptual.pl):

use strict;
use warnings;
my $inprofile = $ARGV[0];
my $outprofile = $ARGV[1];
my $intiff = $ARGV[2];
my $outtiff = $ARGV[3];

my $gam = $intiff; $gam =~ s/\.tif*$/.gam/; my $linkprofile = $intiff; $linkprofile =~ s/\.tif*$/.icm/;


print "Creating Gamut file\n";
#`tiffgamut -v -f90 -w -pj \"${inprofile}\" \"${intiff}\"`;
`tiffgamut -v -w -pj \"${inprofile}\" \"${intiff}\"`;

print "Making Link File\n";
`collink -v -dmt -qm -G\"${gam}\" -ip \"${inprofile}\"  \"${outprofile}\" \"${linkprofile}\"`;

`del "${gam}\"`;
print "Making Perceptual TIF Image: ${outtiff} with embedded profile\n";
`cctiff -e \"${outprofile}" \"${linkprofile}\" \"${intiff}\" \"${outtiff}\"`;
#print "Making Perceptual TIF Image: ${outtiff} WITHOUT embedded profile\n";
#`cctiff \"${linkprofile}\" \"${intiff}\" \"${outtiff}\"`;


You can call this script in Windows with this batch file (call the batch file perc.bat):

rem Convert image from source to destination using an intelligent perceptual mapping.

rem Parameter 1 is the source profile (for example ProPhoto). The profile extention must be .icc (do not specify it)
rem parameter 2 is the destination profile (for example HPZ3100-CansonPhotoHiGloss). The profile extention must be .icc (do not specify it)
rem Parameter 3 is the image name. It must be a tif image. Do not specify the extension

rem Example: 'perc ProPhoto PZ3100-CansonPhotoHiGloss testImage'

rem the converted image will be called 'imageName-perc-destinationProfile.tif'

perl perceptual.pl %1.icc %2.icc %3.tif %3-perc-%2.tif


The script takes around 2 minutes on my PC, so it's not exactly quick, but it does a lot of processing!

Robert






« Last Edit: October 16, 2014, 10:21:00 am by Robert Ardill »
Logged
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. - George Santayana

Robert Ardill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 658
    • Images of Ireland
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #71 on: October 16, 2014, 10:24:10 am »

What is the price when buying a head from Epson?

Canon is now recommending users replace both printheads every year, at the cost of some $1000 a year. I don't think it is any cheaper over time.

That's brutal!  How much ink are the heads rated for, do you know?  The HP heads are rated at something like 2 litres per color, so you would need to be doing a lot of printing to have to replace the heads every year.  Do you know why the recommendation?  Is it just to a handy way to make more money, or is there a genuine technical reason, beyond ink clogging?

Logged
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. - George Santayana

Robert Ardill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 658
    • Images of Ireland
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #72 on: October 17, 2014, 06:20:51 am »

Quote
from: samueljohnchia on October 15, 2014, 08:30:30 PM
What is the price when buying a head from Epson?

Canon is now recommending users replace both printheads every year, at the cost of some $1000 a year. I don't think it is any cheaper over time.

I came across this on the iPF wiki:
Printheads are expensive ($450-500 each, current street price; two printheads in a printer) and each one comes with a warranty of one year or when the status of the internal dot counter changes from "a" to "b", whichever comes first. Since the internal dot counter used to verify the warranty validity does not indicate actual dot count, users cannot reliably estimate how much warranty period is left. Canon only gives an estimate of the amount of ink used before the warranty expires--4,000 ml per printhead. This volume does not include ink used for maintenance. This may be particularly significant for those who do not print a lot, as their warranty could expire after one year when they have not printed a high volume of work. Note that the warranty covers approximately 40% of the "expected printhead life", so the average expected throughput is about 2.5 times this amount (according to Canon document on their web site). In addition, the Canon extended warranty does not cover printheads as the Epson extended warranty does. There are only a few reports so far of early printhead failure, and all were covered by Canon under warranty.

I also came across this Canon document http://canonipf.wikispaces.com/file/detail/ExpectedPrintHeadLifeGuideline.pdf which indicates between 7000 and 14000 prints as the printhead life for PF-01/02/03 heads.

So it would seem that we should hopefully get something over 1600ml per color before seeing a head failure (12-14 130ml ink cartridges or 5-6 300ml cartridges). Of course this could be just on one color, like the light gray.  At any rate, certainly a lot more than I would use in a year ... more like 6 years in my case!!

Robert

Robert

Logged
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. - George Santayana

samueljohnchia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #73 on: October 17, 2014, 07:26:05 pm »

About 2-3K per head replacement. And the capping station needs to be replaced along with the head, plus the ink needed to prime the new head. Ouch.

So that's basically the same cost as the Canon heads in the long run... :(

Canon uses 17 grams of ink per color channel to prime the new heads. About $50 of ink per head change.
Logged

samueljohnchia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #74 on: October 17, 2014, 07:33:06 pm »

Do you know why the recommendation?

I was told that old heads have many clogged nozzles in them, which cause over heating and then shorts out vital electrical components. But that just sounds like a wonky explanation to me. Canon printers have never been good in terms of their electronics. Why should a print head take out a $3000 mainboard? So at the end of the day you can ask yourself, would you like to replace 6 heads over 3 years for $3000, or one mainboard in three years at $3000?
Logged

samueljohnchia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #75 on: October 17, 2014, 07:35:07 pm »

At any rate, certainly a lot more than I would use in a year ... more like 6 years in my case!!

Yes, the wiki has the right information. But if you are a low volume user, you might find that you are replacing heads sooner than expected. You certainly won't get that much ink through them before they die.
Logged

Robert Ardill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 658
    • Images of Ireland
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #76 on: October 18, 2014, 05:45:46 am »

Yes, the wiki has the right information. But if you are a low volume user, you might find that you are replacing heads sooner than expected. You certainly won't get that much ink through them before they die.

I might have stuck with a Z3200 if I had known ... the Z3100 I had was still running without a single channel block after 6 years and I didn't once run a nozzle clean.

I guess we live and learn.

Robert
Logged
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. - George Santayana

Robert Ardill

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 658
    • Images of Ireland
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #77 on: October 18, 2014, 05:05:31 pm »

Hi,

Here is a useful set of commands that can be used with ArgyllCMS to check to see how good your print system is:


targen -v -d2 -G -f100 iPFTest
copy iPFTest.ti1 iPFRef.ti1

printtarg -v -r -ii1 -a1.0 -T300 -M6 -pA4 iPFTest
cctiff -v -ir -e iPF6400_HP_ID_Satin.icm iPFTest.tif iPFTestO.tif
move /Y iPFTestO.tif iPFTest.tif

fakeread -v -Ir iPF6400_HP_ID_Satin.icm iPFRef

Pause Print iPFTest.tif using no color management
chartread iPFTest

Pause The test results will be in iPFValidate.txt
colverify -v2 -N -k -s -w -x iPFRef.ti3 iPFTest.ti3 >iPFValidate.txt


The -f flag in the targen command defines the number of patches in the test chart.  Obviously you would need to change the profile to the correct profile for your paper (that is, from iPF6400_HP_ID_Satin.icm to whatever profile you are using.

The commands do the following:
  • targen defines a test chart (iPFTest in this case) with the number of patches specified (100 in this case)
  • printtarg generates the .tif file to be printed (set up for an i1Pro/2 with A4 paper)
  • cctiff converts the test chart file to the target profile, ready for printing
  • fakeread simulates the reading of the test chart, as though it had been printed using the icc profile
  • chartread reads the printed chart
  • colverify compares the scanned data from the printed chart to the simulated chart read from fakeread

If the printer was perfectly calibrated and the profile totally current for the paper, the results of the test (which will be in the file iPFValidate.txt) will show very low delta E values.  For example, in a test I just did, the worst dE value was well under 1.  If the printer calibration had drifted, or if a new roll of paper was used, then the results would give a very good indication of whether or not the paper should be reprofiled.

The test does not tell you how good the profile is.

I hope this may be of use.

Robert
« Last Edit: October 18, 2014, 05:07:42 pm by Robert Ardill »
Logged
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it. - George Santayana

samueljohnchia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #78 on: October 18, 2014, 07:56:17 pm »

I might have stuck with a Z3200 if I had known ... the Z3100 I had was still running without a single channel block after 6 years and I didn't once run a nozzle clean.

The Canons are supposed to work more or less the same way. The print head technology was invented by Canon for what its worth. Your HP certainly runs nozzle 'cleans' on its own, even if you do not initiate it. The Canon printers do the same. If all goes well, one shouldn't run a nozzle clean. I have heard of at least one user on the ipf wiki saying he was still on his original print head on the iPF5000, also about 6 years IIRC. Others have had theirs fail right out of the box. There was an early batch problem with the PF-05 heads, bad right out of the box or very early failures. Canon has gone through 3 revisions of that head. Hopefully yours will last a long time!

I personally won't bother with changing them every year though. Just use them until the printer tells you to change.
Logged

samueljohnchia

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 498
Re: Upgrading from HPZ3100 to iPF6400
« Reply #79 on: October 18, 2014, 07:59:48 pm »

Hi,

Here is a useful set of commands that can be used with ArgyllCMS to check to see how good your print system is:

Thanks Robert, I'm saving notes of all your ArgyllCMS related information.

It is excellent to know that you are seeing values far less than 1 dE. What is the actual dE report, with a break down of the best, worst and average measurements?
Logged
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5   Go Up