The New Leica S (Typ 007) and Leica S-E (Typ 006)

[Atina]

Leica is scheduled to announce a new version of its medium-format Leica S camera.

The company will present the new products on 16 September at 9 A.M. Central European Time.

They released the first teaser:

http://view.my.leica-camera.com/?j=fe9a15717462057a71&m=fe9012717c60017874&ls=fe2e167177620c7e731071&l=ff60167870&s=fe61177371610c7a7514&jb=ff961578&ju=fe5a157574630d757015&r=0

Is anyone here interested? What would you like Leica to improve and add, and what do you think they will?

[Manoli]

Everything comes to those who wait ..

[eronald]

Everything comes to those who wait ..

long enough to purchase used

e.

[Theodoros]

long enough to purchase used

e.

I guess current S-S2 S/H availability will improve further and prices will drop... I just hope that if they improve the sensor (possibly to a Cmos one made by Cmosis?) it'll offer significant high ISO improvement and will have about the same resolution... I don't want to see the "S" involved in the megapixel war that others have... I would also expect that if there is a new sensor, a version of it for a new Sinarback will also be introduced... maybe it is even a self contained back with multishot capability. I would also be thrilled if Leica has worked for a new focal plane shutter mechanism for the "S" body, that will allow 1/250 flash sync speed... Contax lens users will love that!

Imagine if Sinar will offer a self contained back with multishot capability for the H5X... before Hasselblad itself ever offer the 50c/50ms/200ms for its own camera...  That will be a big point of concern for Hasselblad!  Imagine pros buying a H5X body and some H lenses and use a Sinarback multishot back with it and with their tech/view camera, while use an S body with the same lenses for whenever DSLR flexibility is the requirement.   

[Manoli]

Imagine if Sinar will offer a self contained back with multishot capability for the H5X... before Hasselblad itself ever offer the 50c/50ms/200ms for its own camera... 

Last time I looked this thread was about the Leica S

[Manoli]

This is a seminal product launch for Leica, one may well consider it even a 'make or break' moment. It will need to be CMOS and have increased resolution into the 50MP arena to stay competitive.  Phase, Hassy, Leaf and Pentax have all played their hands, all with the SONY sensor - differentiated by a few features, their legacy advantages and disadvantages and their respective distribution and service networks. Oh, and I almost forgot – price.

I doubt the Leica will break new ground price-wise. I wish it would but realistically it would be somewhat out-of-character.

Leitz have the best MF lenses out there ( I know some in the MF crowd will wince at that one, but frankly Leica have the gravitas and the kudos – for the time being ) and they're the only one to offer such extensive MF lens cross-compatibility.

So, yup, this is the announcement that many have been waiting for. There have been, as usual, quite a few whispers circulating these past months – not all of them favourable – soon we'll know. Will Leica be the one to stand out from the crowd ? I hope so - and look forward to Michael's and Sean Reid's reviews with interest.

If it's a 'hit', Edmund will be proved right and the prices for the old used S's will fall. If it's a 'fail', then bcooter had better book that call to Steve Hendrix pdq (pretty-damn-quick) 'cos I suspect that the demand for quality used S's will spike up – much as the values for some quality M pre-ASPH lenses have increased since the beginning of the year.

[Theodoros]

Last time I looked this thread was about the Leica S

Last time I looked my post was about the like S and its position to the market... you only used a phrase (delibaretly) out of it (which doesn't stand alone for a conclusion) to make it look as out of topic... Which of course isn't a moral thing to do. 

[Atina]

Apparently, there will be an entry-level S system for AUD 20,000 (USD 18,000; EUR 14,000) and a super S system with 4K video capability, GPS, and wi-fi, with a “if you're asking, you can't afford it” price tag:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3724964

[Ken R]

I like Leica's approach. They quickly designed and made a superb S system lens line that is ready to handle much higher sensor resolution. Their lens line is just very complete. From the 24mm wide angle (somewhat easy to filter) to the 180mm, all lenses are superb. Only the Hasselblad H line comes close from wide angle to tele. The PhaseOne/Schnedier lenses are superb but they are missing high quality lenses that are easy to filter in the crucial 24-35mm range but I think all cover full frame 645 though.

Leica has refined the original S2 platform with the Leica S and the upcoming New Leica S should be even better. It's pretty amazing what they have done in a few years. Yes, the prices are astronomically high but one gets a feel that the company is continuously developing the system not standing still enjoying the profits. They are not resting on their laurels!

Tomorrow should be interesting. (not only for Leica )

[eronald]

Apparently, there will be an entry-level S system for AUD 20,000 (USD 18,000; EUR 14,000) and a super S system with 4K video capability, GPS, and wi-fi, with a “if you're asking, you can't afford it” price tag:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3724964

Rational pricing from Leica? What is going to happen next - flocks of pigs in the sky and a breakout of universal peace?
Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction I guess. And they may poach quite a few Phase buyers who want a better shooting experience.

Edmund

[gerald.d]

Leitz have the best MF lenses out there...

Are they really better than the Rodenstocks? (Genuine question - not trying to stir the pot!)

Kind regards,


Gerald.

[Theodoros]

Are they really better than the Rodenstocks? (Genuine question - not trying to stir the pot!)

Kind regards,


Gerald.

I don't believe that success of the Leica system is based to the quality of the lenses, but rather it has a lot to do with the positioning of the body itself in the photographic market... Leica has chosen to offer a camera that competes with MF back quality, yet it is no bigger than a professional DSLR when in use. From that POV, if the camera will be able to add in its specification what it lacks from a top DSLR's main advantages, (High Iso performance and more speed) it may also replace the use of a DSLR in parallel to an MF system and thus fulfil the ultimate photographer's dream, which is to use as little equipment as possible with no compromise in quality.

The vast majority of MF users currently are using a FF DSLR system along their MF system, if Leica S could replace their D800/E/810 or their 5Dmk3  for what they use it, then the DSLR would become obsolete and the photographer could save a fortune by getting rid of his DSLR altogether, yet adding a modern MFDB to his system.

Take a Contax 645 user for instance... adding a S/H MFDB is about the same cost as adding a S/H Leica S into his system, while adding a new MFDB is about as much with adding a new Leica S... But if the Leica S could save him from having a couple of D800Es and perhaps 7-8 lenses in addition to the above, he would increase both the flexibility of his system, as well as the quality of his work, while (in most cases) selling his DSLR system could provide him all he needs financially for perhaps more than a Leica S...

Now given that none ever complained for the quality of Zeiss glass for the Contax or Hassy glass for the H system and given that Leica with their 24mm lens gives a reliable solution for WA to all MF users that have compatible lenses with Leica's system, the choice of a Leica S looks more appealing and feasible than ever for these people (who neither are a small number, nor have to finance a new investment since they may sell their FF DSLRs and lenses) provided of course that they will find with the "S" what they invested for in their DSLRs!

Therefore, I would expect Leica, to: 1. Provide a more capable camera for higher Iso performance 2. Provide a faster camera 3. Support even more of quality MF lenses (Rollei 6xxx/HY6 system comes immediately into mind) and attract more customers into their system.

[gerald.d]

All very interesting, but totally irrelevant to the question asked.

Did you quote my post by mistake?

[Manoli]

Are they really better than the Rodenstocks? (Genuine question - not trying to stir the pot!)

I was referring more to the Hasselblad, Schneider, Pentax and Mamiya autofocus MF offerings. Aren't Rodenstocks more for tech cams ? Nevertheless, the short answer is:  I don't know - I haven't used them.

Best,
Manoli

[gerald.d]

I was referring more to the Hasselblad, Schneider, Pentax and Mamiya autofocus MF offerings. Aren't Rodenstocks more for tech cams ? Nevertheless, the short answer is:  I don't know - I haven't used them.

Best,
Manoli

Thanks for the clarification. It's certainly my understanding that the Rodenstocks are better than any of the DSLR body MF lenses, but I do appreciate that Leica glass is legendary.

Having never used them nor seen a direct comparison, I am genuinely interested in just how good the Leica glass is.

Ignoring the movement capabilities of the tech lenses on the tech cameras, and (typically for my usage) speed of the lens, if a Leica lens is better than a Rodie for a specific focal length, then I'd very much like to know about it.

Kind regards,


Gerald.

[Theodoros]

Never made a comparison between Rodies against top quality MF glass either... but why bother? I doubt larger image circle lenses like all lenses designed to serve movements are, will be better than top quality MF glass (not only Leica, but Contax or Hasselblad or Rollei 6xxx too) for MF size image area. What's the point of comparing trivial lens differences anyway? Usually, the glass that diffracts when wider open, has better performance for the smaller image area. I believe that given the slower speeds of LF lenses the comparison is pointless... Both are designed to impress the users that they apply to.

[Manoli]

Having never used them nor seen a direct comparison, I am genuinely interested in just how good the Leica glass is.

Ignoring the movement capabilities of the tech lenses on the tech cameras, and (typically for my usage) speed of the lens, if a Leica lens is better than a Rodie for a specific focal length, then I'd very much like to know about it.

It's an interesting question, unfortunately outside both my field of experience and even further outside my level of competence ! For reference, had a quick look at Rodenstock MTF's compared to the Leica S equivalents.

Best,
Manoli

[bcooter]

Don't know anything about charts, but on my S2 using mostly Ziess Contax, with one Leica 120mm, the difference is the Contax lenses are razor sharp and have more contrast, than the leica, soft of like you turned sharpening and contrast up in post.

The Leica lens is sharp, probably as sharp in reality, though has a smoother roll off from mid tones to shadows.

It just depends on the look you want.  The Leica lenses, more film like with a look of smoothness, the contax Zeiss some would say more digital like with higher contrast.

Both can be equalized closely in post.

Bottom line is there is a Leica lens look and it's hard to explain until you see the same image side by side.

For the costs, I'm always surprised at the number of DP's that spec Leica cine lenses, but when you see the look, I assume it's to give a more film like feel to digital.

For personal reasons, I hope Lecia succeeds with the S, for my wallet, I kind of wish the lenses didn't look so pretty.


IMO

BC

[Chris Livsey]

If it's a 'hit', Edmund will be proved right and the prices for the old used S's will fall. If it's a 'fail', then bcooter had better book that call to Steve Hendrix pdq (pretty-damn-quick) 'cos I suspect that the demand for quality used S's will spike up – much as the values for some quality M pre-ASPH lenses have increased since the beginning of the year.

Will they fall?
What about the newcomers to the brand wanting a back up body? Or will they be so reasonably priced new they will all take two?
Leica/ reasonably priced - is an oxymoron

[bcooter]

Will they fall?
What about the newcomers to the brand wanting a back up body? Or will they be so reasonably priced new they will all take two?
Leica/ reasonably priced - is an oxymoron

I know nothing about why or why not camera prices fall, but Leica prices don't seem to drop off the planet like other digital, as long as it's pure leica and not panasonic clones.

I doubt seriously if S2's or S's will drop to nothing (though edmund does his best to put that thought out there)  just because the M9 has held it's price almost to the level of new, (if you could actually find a new M9).

Last year I was at a Leica dealer in London and he said once the m240 was out and Leica fanatics saw the results, the dealer sold his entire 24 m9's in a day and has a constant list of customers waiting for any M9 in good shape.

I doubt of the S2/S will be at that level, but I think the price you see today is pretty close to the price they will be for a long time.

I have to admit that if you've used an S/S2 the design and build quality just hit the perfect spot of feel and use.   It really is a great system and if we only shot stills I'd buy the new cmos S and probably never look back.


IMO

BC

P.S.   We rarely sell our old equipment (my bad) but I just sold our Sony FS100.  Two days after we listed it a guy wanted it, but Sony dropped the price of it new, equal to what I was asking.  I told the buyer he would be better off with new, but he wanted it and bought it for the asking price.  Now I did throw in the SSD drive for free, so maybe that was the reason.

Go figure.