Matte paper for watercolor printing

[Robert Ardill]

Robert,

I used this information from Scott Martin to figure out the right settings with my Epson 3880
http://www.on-sight.com/how-to-determine-the-optimal-media-selection-for-any-paper/

Alan

Thanks Alan ... if there was no choice I would certainly have a go using Scott's technique, but since Hahnemuhle, Canson etc., provide full settings for their papers I won't be going near the Epson ones while I'm using an HP printer.  It's strange that Epson doesn't provide settings for other printers as I'm sure they could make plenty of money from paper sales.

As an update: I had forgotten that I have sample packs of Hahnemuhle paper and I've tried the textured fine art ones ... all very nice.  My preferences would be as follows for watercolor prints:

Museum Etching: This a heavy 350gsm paper with a lovely texture, my favourite
German Etching: Next best, with a rougher texture (and feel to the hand)
Torchon: Very interesting paper with a 'torchon' finish. I will be using this for some images.
Wm Turner: V. nice, but I like the German Etching texture better. The Turner has quite a sharp texture which isn't watercolor-like.
Sugar Cane: A good possible as a Hot Press type paper.  It has essentially no texture (just a little
Albrecht Durer: This is a lightweight paper (210gsm) with a very sharp texture that I don't like. Won't be using this one.

So of these the ones that I think I will use are the Museum Etching, Torchon and possibly the Sugar Cane for Hot Press prints.

In terms of gamut and Dmax there's not much to choose between these papers.  Of course they all have a fairly low DMax of around 1.6 and they are all weak in the saturated reds, like all the other watercolor papers I've tried.  Still, as long as these are taken into account, the look of the prints is fantastic.

Robert

[Geraldo Garcia]

So of these the ones that I think I will use are the Museum Etching, Torchon and possibly the Sugar Cane for Hot Press prints.

In terms of gamut and Dmax there's not much to choose between these papers.  Of course they all have a fairly low DMax of around 1.6 and they are all weak in the saturated reds, like all the other watercolor papers I've tried.  Still, as long as these are taken into account, the look of the prints is fantastic.

Hahnemühle Sugar Cane is no longer available, they stopped producing it about a year ago.
William Turner and the chroma red of the HP z3200 render the most saturastes reds i ever saw on a textured matte paper.

[Robert Ardill]

Hahnemühle Sugar Cane is no longer available, they stopped producing it about a year ago.
William Turner and the chroma red of the HP z3200 render the most saturastes reds i ever saw on a textured matte paper.

Thanks for the info Geraldo. Could you send me the icc profile for the Z3100 William Turner?  I would be interested to compare the gamut to the papers I tested today on the Z3100 (unfortunately I don't have a Z3200 .

Robert

[Alan Goldhammer]

Thanks Alan ... if there was no choice I would certainly have a go using Scott's technique, but since Hahnemuhle, Canson etc., provide full settings for their papers I won't be going near the Epson ones while I'm using an HP printer.  It's strange that Epson doesn't provide settings for other printers as I'm sure they could make plenty of money from paper sales.

But then they might not sell as many printers!  Anyway, Epson do not manufacture papers themselves but source them from one of the major manufacturers.

[hugowolf]

A lot of these fine art papers are very different when the ink goes down compared to pure white areas where the texture is unchanged. It is interesting that you mention German Etching vs Museum Etching, at least with Epson inks, the German Etching holds reds and detail better than with the Museum Etching.

The wood pulp based German Etching will always have that steeper texture than the softer cotton papers. And the OBA content can be a problem.

And per your original post, neither are watercolor papers, they are both etching papers.

I have to laugh when I hear Rives BFK called a watercolor paper. It has always been a printing paper (intaglio, etc) from the start. Arches Aquarelle, as per the name, is a water color paper; at least until the inkjet receptive layer went down.

Brian A

[Robert Ardill]

A lot of these fine art papers are very different when the ink goes down compared to pure white areas where the texture is unchanged. It is interesting that you mention German Etching vs Museum Etching, at least with Epson inks, the German Etching holds reds and detail better than with the Museum Etching.

The wood pulp based German Etching will always have that steeper texture than the softer cotton papers. And the OBA content can be a problem.

And per your original post, neither are watercolor papers, they are both etching papers.

I have to laugh when I hear Rives BFK called a watercolor paper. It has always been a printing paper (intaglio, etc) from the start. Arches Aquarelle, as per the name, is a water color paper; at least until the inkjet receptive layer went down.

Brian A

Yes, well none of these Hahnemuhle papers have a real watercolor texture IMO.  The Museum Etching is a bit like a hot press watercolor paper, but if I compare my Daler Rowney Langton or Aquafine cold press papers to the HM papers then none of the HM papers come close to the same textures as the DR papers.

I need to get hold of some Canson Arches to see what that looks like.

Robert

[Robert Ardill]

Hahnemühle Sugar Cane is no longer available, they stopped producing it about a year ago.
William Turner and the chroma red of the HP z3200 render the most saturastes reds i ever saw on a textured matte paper.

Geraldo, I was thinking of maybe selling my Z3100 and getting a Z3200 as a replacement, but it looks like the Z3200 is now obsolete (although HP is still selling a few at a very good price over here in Ireland - 1900 Euros for a 24" model ... about $2500) - which presumably means they're trying to dump the last few they have in stock.

Do you know what replacement is in the line for the Z3200? 

Robert

[Geraldo Garcia]

Thanks for the info Geraldo. Could you send me the icc profile for the Z3100 William Turner?  I would be interested to compare the gamut to the papers I tested today on the Z3100 (unfortunately I don't have a Z3200 .

Here is the link to a custom profile: http://geraldogarcia.com/provas/ImaImp_Z3200ps_HFA_WilliamTurner_310_60cm.icc
I really don't know how to explain it... maybe the profile will not show a clear advantage on the reds, comparing the gamut plot to other papers I could not see a great difference. But when we print images with strong reds on William Turner everybody says "WOW!"
Maybe is something related to the texture and how the light interacts with it creating tiny shadow areas under the "bumps", something that the frontal light of the spectrometer cannot catch. Just guessing, but it really renders beautiful and strong reds with the Z3200.

Do you know what replacement is in the line for the Z3200?

It really looks like HP has abandoned the 12 ink pigmented printers, nothing new on the radar and everybody I know inside HP says the same: Their focus is on 8 ink faster printers and latex.
The price would have to be extremely low for me to consider buying a new Z3200 today, my biggest concern is the absence of spare parts in the near future.
I added a Canon IPF8400 to our studio early this year and we are very happy with it. I still prefer the black and white of the Z and the gloss enhancer makes all the difference in the world when printing on baryta/semi-gloss media. Other than that the 8400 is quite an improvement with slightly larger gamut on matte papers and really larger gamut on glossy. The Z3200 still has a more saturated red (barely, only noticeable on the gamut plot or with close comparison of prints), but loses on pretty much all the other colors.

[hugowolf]

Yes, well none of these Hahnemuhle papers have a real watercolor texture IMO.  The Museum Etching is a bit like a hot press watercolor paper, but if I compare my Daler Rowney Langton or Aquafine cold press papers to the HM papers then none of the HM papers come close to the same textures as the DR papers.

I need to get hold of some Canson Arches to see what that looks like.

As a true watercolor paper (not inkjet coated) Arches Aquarelle, the largest selling watercolor paper worldwide, comes in three 'textures': hot pressed (in other words smooth), cold pressed, and rough. A watercolor paper doesn't have to be textured. The Langton papers are also available hot pressed.

Etching paper was generally not intended for watercolor.

Brian A

[Robert Ardill]

Here is the link to a custom profile: http://geraldogarcia.com/provas/ImaImp_Z3200ps_HFA_WilliamTurner_310_60cm.icc
I really don't know how to explain it... maybe the profile will not show a clear advantage on the reds, comparing the gamut plot to other papers I could not see a great difference. But when we print images with strong reds on William Turner everybody says "WOW!"
Maybe is something related to the texture and how the light interacts with it creating tiny shadow areas under the "bumps", something that the frontal light of the spectrometer cannot catch. Just guessing, but it really renders beautiful and strong reds with the Z3200.

It really looks like HP has abandoned the 12 ink pigmented printers, nothing new on the radar and everybody I know inside HP says the same: Their focus is on 8 ink faster printers and latex.
The price would have to be extremely low for me to consider buying a new Z3200 today, my biggest concern is the absence of spare parts in the near future.
I added a Canon IPF8400 to our studio early this year and we are very happy with it. I still prefer the black and white of the Z and the gloss enhancer makes all the difference in the world when printing on baryta/semi-gloss media. Other than that the 8400 is quite an improvement with slightly larger gamut on matte papers and really larger gamut on glossy. The Z3200 still has a more saturated red (barely, only noticeable on the gamut plot or with close comparison of prints), but loses on pretty much all the other colors.

Yes ... I was on to HP and they were quite evasive.  It looks like they're abandoning the 12-ink line.  I guess they couldn't compete with Epson and Canon.  Pity because the Z3100 (and no doubt the Z3200) are great printers.  I've had mine for six years and apart from a belt replacement earlier this year I haven't had a single problem with it.

I'm not sure I can justify getting an ipf6400 ... might see what I can get for my Z3100.

Robert

[Robert Ardill]

As a true watercolor paper (not inkjet coated) Arches Aquarelle, the largest selling watercolor paper worldwide, comes in three 'textures': hot pressed (in other words smooth), cold pressed, and rough. A watercolor paper doesn't have to be textured. The Langton papers are also available hot pressed.

Etching paper was generally not intended for watercolor.

Brian A

Well I'm getting some Aquarelle - looking forward to trying it. 

I'm a watercolor painter so I'm reasonably familiar with traditional media. What I'm trying to do now is to make prints of my watercolors and for that I need both hot and cold press papers.  However ... from a purely visual point of view ... I think using a smooth paper is preferable, with the texture coming from the photograph/scan of the painting.  Otherwise there's a mismatch between the texture of the painting and the texture of the digital paper (for example paint separation/pooling occurring on the hills rather than in the hollows of the paper).  Of course the feel of the paper is another matter.

I'm also v. interested in digital painting (watercolors again) ... but the same issue arises here: matching the texture of the digital painting to the texture of the paper.  Papers like the HM Sugar Cane (sadly no longer available) and the Museum Etching (to a lesser extent) are good compromises because they have a nice feel with little texture.  I'll be interested to see what the Canson Aquarelle hot press paper is like.

Robert

[hugowolf]

If you haven't already, you could also try St Cuthbert's Mill, which produces several inkjet coated watercolor papers that aren't available here in the US.

I don't know about the reproduction of watercolors on smooth inkjet papers, it might work. Paper is such a personal thing. I would suggest looking the softer 'velvet' textured papers, which would retain some texture but not overwhelm the photographically reproduced texture of the original.

I think if you are going to use a heavily textured paper, you will have to use very flat lighting when shooting the original.

Brian A

[Robert Ardill]

If you haven't already, you could also try St Cuthbert's Mill, which produces several inkjet coated watercolor papers that aren't available here in the US.

I don't know about the reproduction of watercolors on smooth inkjet papers, it might work. Paper is such a personal thing. I would suggest looking the softer 'velvet' textured papers, which would retain some texture but not overwhelm the photographically reproduced texture of the original.

I think if you are going to use a heavily textured paper, you will have to use very flat lighting when shooting the original.

Brian A

Thanks Brian - I'll have a look at the St Cuthbert's.

You're right about the lighting - it has to be very flat otherwise there's far too much paper texture coming through.  The photograph has to show very little paper texture, just an impression.

Robert