Matte paper for watercolor printing

[Robert Ardill]

Hi,

Has anyone come across a matte paper that has a gamut anywhere close to sRGB, especially in the reds and oranges?  Also with a DMax of 1.8 or better?  I will be printing on an HPZ3100 with matte black inks.

Thanks

Robert

[Paul2660]

Three come to mind:

1.  Canson Arches  amazing dmax, on matte ink.  Very nice textured look also.  No OBA

2.  Breathing color 600MT, a bit cheaper than Canson but also very nice.

3.  Epson Watercolor Radiant White, a bit heavy in weight, but the standard that most inkjet papers of this type are based on.

Paul

[huguito]

You could try the new Exhibition Watercolor from Epson
It does have a heavy texture

[Alan Goldhammer]

I would have to go back and look at my test print but as I recall Hahnemuhle William Turner would fit your needs.  It has a nice texture and I've done a fair amount of printing with it.  If you are interested send me a PM with a mailing address and I can get several letter size sheets off to you so you can test it yourself.

Alan

[Paul2660]

Correcting my first post, Epson's Watercolor Radiant White is now called Exhibition Water Color. 

Paul 

[Robert Ardill]

Thanks for your suggestions!

The problem is that as far as I can make out, no matte paper has a decent Dmax or is much good in the reds/oranges/violets.  Here for example is the Hahnemuhle William Turner (4880 profile from Epson):

 

Other papers like the Epson Radiant White (seems to be called 'Exhibition Watercolor Paper Textured' now) are slightly better in some areas and slightly worse in others, but all these papers have a Dmax of under 1.6 ... which is probably par for the course for matte papers.

I can live with that, sort of, but the weakness in the reds/purples is really a problem.  In comparison, a paper like the Canson Platine Fibre Rag (which is not a matte paper) has a Dmax of nearly 2.2 and covers most of sRGB and a good bit a AdobeRGB (and exceeds both in areas).

Alan, many thanks for offering some sheets of the William Turner ... but I'm in Ireland (and I guess you're in the U.S).

What I'm doing at the moment is printing the less saturated images on Hahnemuhle Photo Rag and Epson Watercolor Radiant White and the more saturated ones on Canson Platine. 

If anyone is interested in trying out a problematic image on some watercolor paper, you can download it here: http://www.irelandupclose.com/customer/LL/Poppies#4.jpg

Where there's a real flattening is in the darker reds on the large flower: the whole flower ends up looking quite flat using a matte paper:



Printed on Canson Platine it looks great ... but then it looks more like a print of a watercolor than a real watercolor.

Cheers,

Robert

[Paul2660]

You are right by its nature matte black will have less DMAX than platine with PK. However the Canson Arches gives it a good run.  Try it in a small sheet pack.

Paul

[Alan Goldhammer]

Robert,

Sorry that you are in Ireland, postage would be more than you just buying a small package of the paper to try it.  You are not going to get much more of a Dmax on any matte paper relative to a gloss paper.  Most papers labeled "bright white" or "radiant white" likely have fluorescent whitening agents in them.  You can go to Ernst Dikla's site and see if he has spectral data on the paper of interest.  I looked up my Dmax data and William Turner came in at 1.65 whereas I get 2.3 for Ilford Gold Fiber Silk and 2.4 for Museo Silver Rag (measurements done using an i1Pro and ArgyllCMS software).  That's just what one has to live with.  The key thing is to look at the print in isolation and don't try to compare it to the same image on a gloss paper as they really are two different ways of printing.  Personally I still do a fair amount of printing on matte paper if the image warrants it.

[Robert Ardill]

Thanks Paul,

I love the Canson papers, so I will definitely try the Arches.  I assume you mean the Aquarelle and not the Velin?

Robert

[Paul2660]

Yes the Aquarelle.

Paul

[Robert Ardill]

Robert,

Sorry that you are in Ireland, postage would be more than you just buying a small package of the paper to try it.  You are not going to get much more of a Dmax on any matte paper relative to a gloss paper.  Most papers labeled "bright white" or "radiant white" likely have fluorescent whitening agents in them.  You can go to Ernst Dikla's site and see if he has spectral data on the paper of interest.  I looked up my Dmax data and William Turner came in at 1.65 whereas I get 2.3 for Ilford Gold Fiber Silk and 2.4 for Museo Silver Rag (measurements done using an i1Pro and ArgyllCMS software).  That's just what one has to live with.  The key thing is to look at the print in isolation and don't try to compare it to the same image on a gloss paper as they really are two different ways of printing.  Personally I still do a fair amount of printing on matte paper if the image warrants it.

Thanks for the offer all the same Alan!  I'm surprised you're getting 1.65 on the WT ... looking at the Epson 4880 MK profile it's coming in at 1.59 (not far off, admittedly).  Do you up the ink level?  I'll be using a Z3100 and as I have a i1Pro2 I will also be making my own profile.

I agree that you can't compare gloss papers with matte side-by-side because the look is so different, and there are swings and roundabouts.  I particularly want a matte look on a textured paper because I will be printing watercolors ... but for the image above really matte doesn't seem to work very well because of the saturated dark reds. The issue seems to be more with the darker colors because of the rapid fall-off ... so a color that is well in gamut will quickly go out of gamut if it is darkened ... and the result is a flattening (similar to the flattening with grayscale, but more upsetting because it's more obvious in color).

Robert

[Robert Ardill]

Yes the Aquarelle.

Paul

Paul ... do you find much difference (apart from price) between the 240gsm and 310gsm papers?  The prints will be mounted behind glass in any case.

Robert

[Paul Ozzello]

Hi Robert,

I can't comment on sRGB as I only print black and white, but like you have been struggling to find a decent matte paper with good dMax.

http://www.dygartphotography.com/papertestcharts/014epsonhotprbright1440.html

So far the best I've found is Epson's Hot Press Natural and Hot Press Bright. I'm used to selenium toned fiber based darkroom prints and really picky about my blacks, with the hotpress and QTR I can achieve close to 1.8 (1.78) - the blacks are truly awesome :

[Paul2660]

Paul ... do you find much difference (apart from price) between the 240gsm and 310gsm papers?  The prints will be mounted behind glass in any case.

Robert

I tend to deckle my matte prints on the Arches, so I prefer the 310 weight. 

Paul Ozzello  brought up a good point, and I did forget the Hot Press lineup.  As he mentioned the Dmax on the Hot Press bright is excellent, I compare it to Optica 1, (which has OBA) Epson claims Hot Press does not.  These papers have a smooth finish so I left them out.  Most folks I print for prefer a textured (true water color paper look feel).  The thing about Arches, is that it holds details so well.  I believe the Hot Press will show a better overall Dmax, and it does make for a beautiful B&W print (I am using Epson).

The Epson Cold press have the texture as I recall, but not as deep a black retention so a bit less DMAX. 

Paul

[Alan Goldhammer]

Paul Ozzello  brought up a good point, and I did forget the Hot Press lineup.  As he mentioned the Dmax on the Hot Press bright is excellent, I compare it to Optica 1, (which has OBA) Epson claims Hot Press does not.  These papers have a smooth finish so I left them out.  Most folks I print for prefer a textured (true water color paper look feel).  The thing about Arches, is that it holds details so well.  I believe the Hot Press will show a better overall Dmax, and it does make for a beautiful B&W print (I am using Epson).

The Epson Cold press have the texture as I recall, but not as deep a black retention so a bit less DMAX. 

Paul

See:  http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm  Epson Hot and Cold Press Bright both have OBAs from the spectral data.

[Paul2660]

Oh well. I know Optica 1 does too but I love the look.

Interesting to see that information on the Hot Press Bright however.

Paul

[Robert Ardill]

Yes, the Hot/Cold Press Natural look good (just from the Epson icc profiles) and have no OBAs ... pretty much same gamut and Dmax as the Hot/Cold Press Bright (which have OBAs).  The gamut volume is more or less identical to the Canson Aquarelle: however the Aquarelle has more saturated colors in the light regions whereas the Epson papers are stronger in the darker saturated colors .... which are more important for watercolors, IMO (because they are harder to achieve).  As far as DMax is concerned there seems to be no difference, except that the Epson papers have a much steeper b/w density response curve, which means that these papers will have better contrast than the Aquarelle.  If Paul O can get a Dmax of 1.8 that's really impressive (the Epson profiles show a DMax of 1.6, same as the Aquarelle with the Canson profile).

The Hahnemuhle William Turner looks just as good as the Epson Hot/Cold press papers though (again just basing this on the icc profiles).

This review is worth looking at: http://www.ronmartblog.com/2011/02/epson-hot-and-cold-press-papers-review.html

Does anyone have experience of using these Epson papers on an HP Z3100?


Robert

[huguito]

PAUL
The old Watercolor Radiant White is not the same as the new Exhibition Watercolor paper
The new one has much more texture, is very stiff, I like how images look on it but the feeling of the paper in my hands was a turnoff for me, almost like holding stiff sandpaper. I imagine it doesn't matter much once framed, but the feeling on my hands still stop me from buying a roll

Hugo

[Robert Ardill]

I've tried to find printer settings for the Epson Hot/Cold press papers for an HP Z3100, but so far without success.  I can profile the papers myself, so that's not an issue, but what I'm looking for are recommendations for what HP paper type to select and what settings to use in terms of ink amounts etc.

Does anyone have experience with using Epson papers on a Z3100? Or know where to get the information needed.  Epson doesn't appear to provide this information, unlike paper makes like Canson and Hahnemuhle.

I had a bunch of Epson Watercolor Radiant White sheets that I used with my now defunct Epson 4800, but I'm not really happy with the results on the Z3100 and I suspect that I have the wrong paper settings.

Thanks

Robert

[Alan Goldhammer]

Robert,

I used this information from Scott Martin to figure out the right settings with my Epson 3880
http://www.on-sight.com/how-to-determine-the-optimal-media-selection-for-any-paper/

Alan