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Author Topic: Michael's Pentax 645z Review  (Read 21240 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #60 on: September 08, 2014, 02:33:26 am »

Minolta had digital solutions, but probably was less than competitive. The operation was taken over by Sony. Pentax is a parallel, it was taken over by Ricoh.

Best regards
Erik


Add Frank & Heidecke (Rollei) to that list which was later resurrected as DHW...

In the digital medium format world in my opinion the numbers are simply too small to only survive on bodies and lenses.

On a different note, the digital X-PAN rumor is back… :)

Meanwhile, recent rumors suggest that the Hasselblad Digital X-Pan could finally be appearing at Photokina this year.
Reports say that the compact DSLR will boast a customized sensor (24mm x 65mm with 1.5 cropping).
It is rumored to be priced at around $8000, joining the Leica M price range.

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bcroslin

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #61 on: September 08, 2014, 03:40:43 pm »

Michael,

I noticed you mentioned in another forum that Pentax is going to produce leaf shutter lenses for the 645Z. Can you elaborate?

Thanks,

Bob
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pedro39photo

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #62 on: September 08, 2014, 05:30:07 pm »

I saw 4 days ago a video from the back stage Annie Leibovitz shooting, and she uses recent phase one back on a H hasselblad body and lens, even the monster but great 50-110mm, and was a little surprise to me, she prefer the phase backs but prefer the H camera?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2743951/Where-rich-famous-live-Intimate-portraits-shot-Annie-Leibovitz-Jimmy-Buffett-Misty-Copeland-privacy-homes.html#v-3768284511001
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michael

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #63 on: September 08, 2014, 05:31:29 pm »

Michael,

I noticed you mentioned in another forum that Pentax is going to produce leaf shutter lenses for the 645Z. Can you elaborate?

Thanks,

Bob

It's just a rumour like so many others.

Maybe also a bit of wishful thinking. Pentax really need some new LS lenses to appeal to the wedding crowd.

Michael
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douglevy

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #64 on: September 08, 2014, 06:05:46 pm »

My friends at lensprotogo have purchased the camera, and early reviews are "sensor and body amazing, lenses not there yet. And most of their clients are wedding shooters.

pedro39photo

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #65 on: September 08, 2014, 07:35:29 pm »

Great review Michael, thanks !

Finally in the DMF system - "The Sleeper has Awakened" -  David Lynch's Dune my favorite sci-fiction movie cote...

For several years i read many times that one of reasons for the huge prices in DMF (huge sensors...huge costs)
The base bodys of the Phase One are from the days of mamiya 645AF, the bodys of the H hasselblad are from the Fuji 645 AF, i know that those company's are making a huge effort and a great job for the digital medium format system, thanks for that as a photographer. But the only brand that launch a new base 645 body not a upgrade one are the cheap one...Pentax

- Pentax 645Z 50 MP CMOS Medium Format DSLR Camera BODY - NO LENS - $8,496.95
- Hasselblad H5D-50c Medium Format DSLR BODY - NO LENS - $27,500.00
- Hasselblad CFV-50c - JUST BACK - $15.000
- Mamiya Credo 50 Digital Back -JUST BACK NO BODY - $27,000
- Mamiya Credo 50 Digital Back Kit with 645DF + f/2.8 80mm LS AF Lens - $30,995.00
- Mamiya 645DF+ Medium Format DSLR Camera (Body Only No LENS NO BACK NO SENSOR) - $6.000

I don´t have anything against a good company with a good product make good profit, but in this case with the same sensor, and this differences i just like to understand those price ranges in DMF, for me in the past i just could effort to buy used 39MP DMF format systems under 8k now finaly its possible to buy a 50MP DMF for 10k !!!  
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 08:18:12 pm by pedro39photo »
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bcooter

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #66 on: September 08, 2014, 08:57:02 pm »

Great review Michael, thanks !

Finally ....snip

- Pentax 645Z 50 MP CMOS Medium Format DSLR Camera BODY - NO LENS - $8,496.95
- Hasselblad H5D-50c Medium Format DSLR BODY - NO LENS - $27,500.00
- Hasselblad CFV-50c - JUST BACK - $15.000
- Mamiya Credo 50 Digital Back -JUST BACK NO BODY - $27,000
- Mamiya Credo 50 Digital Back Kit with 645DF + f/2.8 80mm LS AF Lens - $30,995.00
- Mamiya 645DF+ Medium Format DSLR Camera (Body Only No LENS NO BACK NO SENSOR) - $6.000
  

I want everyone to do well, but in reality the world of imaging for commerce has changed and a $31,000 still camera is a bit much considering a 6k RED goes for the same price.

Obviously, the RED needs another 7 grand to get a viewfinder, modules for sound input, plus extra battery power, but we're talking about a real, full fledged movie camera for the price of a still camera.

I think Pentax has hit a sweet spot, especially for the serious enthusiast and the photographer that doesn't need tethering, though if Pentax made a tethering suite, came in with some good lens quality and not break the bank prices they'd make life hard for the larger than 35mm competition.

The only issue is I'm heavily invested in lenses that fit my Contax and Leicas and they continue to be very good lenses.   I'm curious where Leica will go in price with their cmos version . . . Bugatti bling or Audi efficiency.  If they go Audi they'll do well.

IMO


BC
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 09:01:17 pm by bcooter »
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eronald

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #67 on: September 08, 2014, 09:35:34 pm »

J,  a RED has no moving parts - it's just a sensor and some electronics. No reason for prices there not to crash here in the same way, if a commodity sensor comes out that can do the bandwidth without overheating. The rest is pretty much there already, now that SSDs are commodity items, and compression standards have been written and CinemaDNG has arrived. Over the past few years, Canon has had a good run financially with their cinema dSLRs, and I am sure Sony have designs on all that money ...they do have a *lot* of experience in the pro TV industry so they have the know how.

Edmund



I want everyone to do well, but in reality the world of imaging for commerce has changed and a $31,000 still camera is a bit much considering a 6k RED goes for the same price.

Obviously, the RED needs another 7 grand to get a viewfinder, modules for sound input, plus extra battery power, but we're talking about a real, full fledged movie camera for the price of a still camera.

I think Pentax has hit a sweet spot, especially for the serious enthusiast and the photographer that doesn't need tethering, though if Pentax made a tethering suite, came in with some good lens quality and not break the bank prices they'd make life hard for the larger than 35mm competition.

The only issue is I'm heavily invested in lenses that fit my Contax and Leicas and they continue to be very good lenses.   I'm curious where Leica will go in price with their cmos version . . . Bugatti bling or Audi efficiency.  If they go Audi they'll do well.

IMO


BC
« Last Edit: September 08, 2014, 09:39:56 pm by eronald »
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torger

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #68 on: September 09, 2014, 04:10:07 am »

Is RED actually successful, or is it more hype? To me it seems like most pros are using Arri still... but maybe that's because I'm located in Europe?
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bcooter

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #69 on: September 09, 2014, 05:08:47 am »

J,  a RED has no moving parts - it's just a sensor and some electronics. No reason for prices there not to crash here in the same way, if a commodity sensor comes out that can do the bandwidth without overheating. The rest is pretty much there already, now that SSDs are commodity items, and compression standards have been written and CinemaDNG has arrived. Over the past few years, Canon has had a good run financially with their cinema dSLRs, and I am sure Sony have designs on all that money ...they do have a *lot* of experience in the pro TV industry so they have the know how.

Edmund





Actually REDS have a cooling fan, that moves.

Sony, who knows.  First they're bleeding more money than a country in the southern euro zone and to this day do not make a modern dslr that will track focus, so obviously there are somethings Sony can't or won't do.

But price out an F55 or F5 and RED is a bargain.  

Now there are rumors of an e mount camera at 10 grand with the f55 sensor, but knowing Sony, something will be missing, especially some way to process 4k.

Sony makes great video cams (engs) but aren't known to own the film world, or the looks like film world, though any file can be made to look good.

RED a gimmick?   I don't think so, they sure own a lot of stuff, including their own studios and though JJ has deep pockets few individuals subsidize large expenses for a decade.

I waited forever for my first RED1 and ran the numbers of how many they sold and it was quite a haul. 

I do know that a 20 grand scarlet will break your brain on how good the footage is, because I shoot my R1's and scarlet next to a lot of cameras and the difference in footage really shows and I'm no techno freak.

In regards to Arri they make a good camera, an enormous size and price and still don't have a 4k solution.  Arri is used in TV to limit transcoding time and because dp's like most creative people are loathe to make a change, though the DP's I know that love Arri and hate RED rent a RED when they're shooting with their money, whatever that means.

I'm far from a RED fanboy, but love their file, kind of like their cameras, they've been great for my business and are affordable compared to anything else with the same look.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 05:53:00 am by bcooter »
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Pope

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #70 on: September 09, 2014, 05:34:57 am »

I'm lusting one of these, but the slow flash synch speed is a downside! Any hope to have LS lenses for it?
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MrSmith

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #71 on: September 09, 2014, 06:14:32 am »

"In regards to Arri they make a good camera, an enormous size and price and still don't have a 4k solution”

yes they do have a 4k solution*. they just aren’t in the habit of not delivering on their promises and moving the goalposts. not releasing it straight away while it’s being tested on a few select productions to make sure everything is 100% is vital when producing reliable professional equipment.
blackmagic and red obviously do it the other way.

*somebody at Arri told me to hang on to my old H/blad lenses. we will have to wait and see why  ;)
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eronald

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #72 on: September 09, 2014, 07:51:52 am »

Great review Michael, thanks !

Finally in the DMF system - "The Sleeper has Awakened" -  David Lynch's Dune my favorite sci-fiction movie cote...

For several years i read many times that one of reasons for the huge prices in DMF (huge sensors...huge costs)
The base bodys of the Phase One are from the days of mamiya 645AF, the bodys of the H hasselblad are from the Fuji 645 AF, i know that those company's are making a huge effort and a great job for the digital medium format system, thanks for that as a photographer. But the only brand that launch a new base 645 body not a upgrade one are the cheap one...Pentax

- Pentax 645Z 50 MP CMOS Medium Format DSLR Camera BODY - NO LENS - $8,496.95
- Hasselblad H5D-50c Medium Format DSLR BODY - NO LENS - $27,500.00
- Hasselblad CFV-50c - JUST BACK - $15.000
- Mamiya Credo 50 Digital Back -JUST BACK NO BODY - $27,000
- Mamiya Credo 50 Digital Back Kit with 645DF + f/2.8 80mm LS AF Lens - $30,995.00
- Mamiya 645DF+ Medium Format DSLR Camera (Body Only No LENS NO BACK NO SENSOR) - $6.000

I don´t have anything against a good company with a good product make good profit, but in this case with the same sensor, and this differences i just like to understand those price ranges in DMF, for me in the past i just could effort to buy used 39MP DMF format systems under 8k now finaly its possible to buy a 50MP DMF for 10k !!!  

Even taking Pentax out of the equation nothing makes sense. Why have both Phase and Credo? And pricing is all over the place. In particular, $12K for a CFV50c and $27K for an h5D50c - none of it really makes sense. Just one thing is certain: for anyone coming into MF, Pentax is cheaper.

Edmund
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MrSmith

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #73 on: September 09, 2014, 09:07:23 am »

but isn’t real full frame 16bit CCD the only way to superior images?
oh sorry that’s last years press release i’m reading ::)
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gerald.d

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #74 on: September 09, 2014, 09:17:26 am »

I want everyone to do well, but in reality the world of imaging for commerce has changed and a $31,000 still camera is a bit much considering a 6k RED goes for the same price.

In fact, RED have actually just offloaded a bunch of barely used (just a few hours apparently) Dragons for $21K.

I think you overplay the abilities of the Dragon as a stills camera, and FWIW I know plenty of people who are none-too-impressed with its capabilities as a movie camera.

Half way between the worlds of cinematography and photography, timelapses from the IQ250 blow any footage you can get from a Dragon out of the water.

I do respect and appreciate that they work well for you (and that you get great results from them), but they are worse than useless in the vast majority of still photography genres.

Kind regards,

Gerald.


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torger

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #75 on: September 09, 2014, 12:09:18 pm »

Even taking Pentax out of the equation nothing makes sense. Why have both Phase and Credo? And pricing is all over the place. In particular, $12K for a CFV50c and $27K for an h5D50c - none of it really makes sense. Just one thing is certain: for anyone coming into MF, Pentax is cheaper.

CFV-50c can be cheap because the V-format is dead in the pro world. Ie even if CFV-50c was for free, it would be useless to professional photographers that need a back that works on the H body. This means that Hasselblad can have completely separate pricing, and making the CFV-50c "cheap" is a good move as it can attract amateurs and artists and one or two nostalgic pro photographers to buy it. They wouldn't sell much if it was as expensive as the H5D-50c. The difference was already there in the CCD versions by the way, CFV-50 vs H5D-50. Yes, you effectively pay $10k for the mount. It's unfortunate the CFV-50c sucks for tech wides, otherwise it would be a real bargain for those of us that just want a back for our tech camera...

Sure Hasselblad could probably sell the H5D-50c for $12k too and make profits on volume rather than ultra-high margins, but it's hard to change business model once it's set. Hopefully the pressure from Pentax and high end 135 will force them to change eventually, but I think they may have still a few more years ahead where they can continue as if nothing has happened.
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david distefano

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #76 on: September 09, 2014, 01:03:37 pm »

It's unfortunate the CFV-50c sucks for tech wides, otherwise it would be a real bargain for those of us that just want a back for our tech camera...

could you explain? are you saying this because of the sensor size?
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Paul2660

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #77 on: September 09, 2014, 01:12:51 pm »

It's main issues are crosstalk on shifts and the 1.3x crop. Crosstalk on the 50mp Sony gets pretty harsh on most wides by 8 to 10mm of shift. Crosstalk = non recoverable loss of color and saturation.

Paul
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bcooter

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #78 on: September 09, 2014, 03:36:19 pm »

Word.

Bottom line on the Pentax is this.

If you work in commerce and your shooting 6 figure projects 9.999 times out of 10 you'll use a phase or a leaf if the job requires medium format.

Pentax played their hand with the  D having virtually no tethering, a tiny buffer  and no immediate solution for any professional processing suite.

Now with the Z, tethering is in the future, professional support isn't mentioned.

For some that's fine, for me that's not.

I hear Pentax will do this, will do that, set up this, offer that, but that's not today and today most of us are working for a living.

And BTW::  Having a good dealer for Leaf and Phase doesn't mean the products are faulty or lack maturity, it just means you have a true professional to assist you and all of us or only as good as who we work with.

EVERY camera company has had issues.  Even deep pockets Nikon, Canon and Sony have pushed stuff out too soon.

Example:   (One of many)

Steve Hendrix has helped me source equipment at 9pm  at night.  When I bought my S2 from him, I got goofy and tried to put an old tilt shift on the contax adapter (bad move) the night before the shoot.  It jammed and I called Steve who was on his roof clearing his gutters.

The next day I had a new adapter.   That's the service professionals need.

I own broncolor HMI's, the blue ones.   Nobody has them, nobody in the U.S. knows anything about them.  If I want a part, a fix, another one . . . Steve finds it.  So yea, a good dealer is priceless and when it comes time for me to buy a new medium format anything, Steve is first on my list,
second would be Doug and Lance.

I just wish CI sold motion equipment because they'd get all of my business.

I'll tell you I don't understand why everyone loses their mind over the price of professional cameras, especially medium format.  Phase/Leaf/Hasselblad/Leica don't have supenoa power, they just offer a product and it's up to the buyer to make the decision.

If you think there price is too high, don't buy.  If you're mad that they won't sell you a $26,000 camera for 8 grand, go a different direction.  There is more to costs than upfront.

My ancient Phase backs are still very viable, produce a unique look and the service I get from Capture Integration is the same today as it was when my backs were new, the software is improved every year.

That's a professional requirement that has made me money for a lot of years and I have no worries using it today, or tomorrow and btw:   my phase backs have never had one single service.  Not even a loose screw.   With Leaf I loved the look, some of the best work in my life with their backs, the ONLY issue was way back then with their software which they fixed a billion years ago.  Yair is one of the most honest and stand up guys on the planet and will go to extraordinary lengths to save your ass.

So for anyone to get mad at the dealer system is just damn silly.  These a pros that should be rewarded for their efforts and none I know are driving 911's or moving into 5,000 sq. ft. beach houses in Malibu.

_____________________

Now in regards to my comments on RED, I don't care who uses an Arri.  I know a lot of operators and dps that prefer Arri, none (absolutely none I know) own one as the production company sets the budget and arranges for the equipment.  Most DP's own a dslr or a small black magic pocket cam for fun.
 
Though the dps I know that don't like RED uses them when their shooting on their own money, so it can't be that bad.

Me, I hate renting,  I buy.  

My RED's (two R1's and the Scarlet) work reliably and professionally,  make me money and have never had a repair after going around the world multiple times.  I've had one break on a Rocket Card and one EVF had some issues, other than that their bulletproof and my RED rep helps me whether I'm in our London, Dallas or LA facility.

Maybe Arri does also, I'll probably never know because an Alexa is 80 grand my reds were about 24k a body and the Alexa weighs twice what the RED's do, so for my style of work, the Alexa is too big.

And though I work around the world, use equipment from every company, I'm kind of proud that the RED's are made in America.  No other pro camera is.

Also I never said RED made a still camera to equal medium format, or even a mid range dslr, but I did say they make cameras for the new media world where motion and still content come together in an electronic pallet.  But honestly if the "special frame" is more compelling from the motion grab than the still shot a client will always pick the most compelling image.  

_____________________

We have an upcoming print ad that we co op with another company that will run in CA.  Today I'm doing concepts,   This is my studio's money, the media buy is as much as a Pentax the production costs even more and I know I'll probably shoot it with my ancient Phase backs.

Since this is my face to the world and probably the most important imagery we produce I could use anything.


IMO

BC

P.S.  And for a disclaimer, nobody gives me anything for free.  I don't ask because knowledgeable people and companies should be compensated for their services.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2014, 03:39:59 pm by bcooter »
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torger

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Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #79 on: September 10, 2014, 04:38:26 am »

could you explain? are you saying this because of the sensor size?

Crosstalk issues, you get limited shifting and/or unstable color rendition (which can't be fixed with LCC), even with Rodenstock Digarons (which are a bit retrofocus unlike the Schneider Digitars). If you do use the Digarons and don't shift much at all you can still be satisfied with the performance, but I would not recommend to anyone buy an expensive digital system where the lens and sensor design match this poorly. For longer lenses it will work fine though, so say for studio table-top photography the CFV-50c is a bargain compared to the competition. On the other hand you could be using a Sony A7r on say an Arca-Swiss MF-two (same crosstalk issues, only good performance on longer lenses) and get an even more cost-effective system, if resolution is enough.
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