Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Down

Author Topic: Michael's Pentax 645z Review  (Read 21235 times)

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2014, 03:47:53 pm »

Michael,

if a Phase One system with IQ250 and corresponding lens lineup would cost the same or even a bit less, would you still prefer the Pentax?

When I read your review it seems to me that the Pentax 645z is the current best match for your shooting style (taking the print-making into account too) even if we drop the cost factor.

I'm struck with how much the shooting style is integrated into the camera choice, and of course it should be like that. It's sometimes easy to forget, especially in medium format land where image quality often seems to be number 1, 2 and 3, forgetting about how useful the system is to make pictures with the shooting style one prefer.

Lets put the question the other way around.... If Pentax would ever decide to split the DSLR in two, a body and a back and would do that in parallel to the Z production and maybe would add some more versions of the back for M645, C645, H645 etc... Would P1 or other survive? Besides.... how much (surely less than the camera) the back would sell for?  ::)

Next... would anybody make an adapter for my 528c to do MS with the Pentax? ...and more next, would the lenses be able to support FF (for mf) image size?  :-\
Logged

LKaven

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2014, 04:03:10 pm »

Photokina is now just 10 days away. Let's see what it brings.

:-)  You say that so innocently.  >whistling<  No, no NDAs around here.

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #42 on: September 07, 2014, 10:56:25 am »

:-)  You say that so innocently.  >whistling<  No, no NDAs around here.

You think Phase and Hassy are going to slash their prices by 60% at Photokina? Wow! Pigs with jet engines indeed :)

Edmund
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3267
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #43 on: September 07, 2014, 12:31:27 pm »

Well, that's obviously a hypothetical. If my grandmother had wings, she'd be an airplane.

:)

Thanks for the reply. The purpose of the hypothetical question was to see if you think Pentax 645z is a superior system for your needs even without considering the cost, and I got a good answer. The cost difference is so large that I imagine many of us could make substantial compromises in function or image quality to save the dollars, but nice to hear that regardless of cost it's up there.
Logged

ErikKaffehr

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11311
    • Echophoto
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #44 on: September 07, 2014, 01:02:52 pm »

Hi,

My guess is that Phase would still be top dog in backs, but those backs would sit on Hasselblad.

Best regards
Erik


There is a difference between a closed system that is closed because the manufacturer is afraid of losing component sales to the competition, and a product which is closed because it is a logical impossibility for it to be open. That's like complaining that a car isn't a boat.

In any event, Hasselblad recently announced that anyone can now buy a H5X (without a trade in) and so the system is open once again.

I wonder what the state of Hasselblad would be today if they hadn't closed the system some eight years ago. Would Phase still be top dog?

Michael

Logged
Erik Kaffehr
 

LKaven

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1060
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #45 on: September 07, 2014, 01:55:27 pm »

You think Phase and Hassy are going to slash their prices by 60% at Photokina? Wow! Pigs with jet engines indeed :)

That's no way to speak about someone's grandmother!  :-)

Seriously, I have no idea what's coming at Photokina.  But Michael does. 

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #46 on: September 07, 2014, 02:16:03 pm »

There is a difference between a closed system that is closed because the manufacturer is afraid of losing component sales to the competition, and a product which is closed because it is a logical impossibility for it to be open. That's like complaining that a car isn't a boat.

In any event, Hasselblad recently announced that anyone can now buy a H5X (without a trade in) and so the system is open once again.

I wonder what the state of Hasselblad would be today if they hadn't closed the system some eight years ago. Would Phase still be top dog?

Michael

My guess is that Hasselblad's decision to stop the CF backs did them even more damage than closing the system... If the CF backs where around, they could (along with D4X) have it both worlds "open" and "closed" at the same time and if they would give the (very easy to apply) ability to H4X to accept any back from the "closed" system, they would have been the leading maker by far... IMO closing the system and later stopping the production of CF backs was a decision of pure arrogance.... and the market punished it accordingly!

Never the less it's never too late, they can still re-introduce the CF backs by simply converting their current backs to self contained and take the market back... 
Logged

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3267
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2014, 02:57:32 pm »

Never the less it's never too late, they can still re-introduce the CF backs by simply converting their current backs to self contained and take the market back...  

They've (sort of) done that with the H5D, there's now battery adapter in the standard accessory kit so you can slap on a battery on the back without too much extra bulk, and use it on a tech cam as any Phase One back. Previously you needed a third-party external battery to use a H5D back. You're limited to the H system though, can't change mount. I think that is much less important today though than back in the days CF was new.



What still remains is the possibility to buy the back without buying the camera body. Oh well, the pricing of the H5D is much higher than the CFV backs too. The CFV-50c is a bargain compared to the near-identical H5D-50c even if you deduct the camera body cost. Unfortunately the CCD-version CFV-50 was discontinued so if you want the 50 megapixel Kodak (great for symmetrical tech wides unlike any modern Dalsa) you still need to go for H5D-50.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 03:03:51 pm by torger »
Logged

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2014, 03:17:35 pm »

They've (sort of) done that with the H5D, there's now battery adapter in the standard accessory kit so you can slap on a battery on the back without too much extra bulk, and use it on a tech cam as any Phase One back. Previously you needed a third-party external battery to use a H5D back. You're limited to the H system though, can't change mount. I think that is much less important today though than back in the days CF was new.



What still remains is the possibility to buy the back without buying the camera body. Oh well, the pricing of the H5D is much higher than the CFV backs too. The CFV-50c is a bargain compared to the near-identical H5D-50c even if you deduct the camera body cost. Unfortunately the CCD-version CFV-50 was discontinued so if you want the 50 megapixel Kodak (great for symmetrical tech wides unlike any modern Dalsa) you still need to go for H5D-50.
Can you put any of the H3D/H3Dii/H4D/H5D backs on an H4X?  The damage that Hasselblad has done to their previous customers is unbelievable... Why an owner of an H3II-D39MS can't keep his su-per-b back?
Logged

torger

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3267
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2014, 03:22:57 pm »

Can you put any of the H3D/H3Dii/H4D/H5D backs on an H4X?  The damage that Hasselblad has done to their previous customers is unbelievable... Why an owner of an H3II-D39MS can't keep his su-per-b back?

Maybe it's a revenge for the damage those customers has caused Hasselblad by not upgrading ;)

Joke aside, we all know that the business model Hasselblad and Phase One employ works best if you follow recommended upgrade paths and stay on the latest. I would not recommend any pro user to buy from them if they don't think they can afford to upgrade when new releases come.
Logged

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #50 on: September 07, 2014, 03:42:42 pm »

Maybe it's a revenge for the damage those customers has caused Hasselblad by not upgrading ;)

Joke aside, we all know that the business model Hasselblad and Phase One employ works best if you follow recommended upgrade paths and stay on the latest. I would not recommend any pro user to buy from them if they don't think they can afford to upgrade when new releases come.
Spot on! ...main reason why I believe Leica/Sinar will have a great future with pros... they invite everybody (not only pros) and have complete solutions for one's needs! ...But it would be better if there was some more competition around... Jokes aside (not joking about Leica/Sinar), It surely will be great if they "wake-up" in Hasselblad and they stop taking their own eyes off..  ??? It really is so simple to do... they only have to convert the current backs for the adapter system they had with the CF backs and make an H5X that will be able (alongside compatibility with other maker's backs) to accept older backs from the older cameras they've made!  :'(
Logged

bcooter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1520
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #51 on: September 07, 2014, 04:08:36 pm »


I never would have considered a Leica S2 except that Leica was smart enough to give me full use of my Contax lenses.  Autofocus, auto diaphragm, everything.

It allowed me to buy into a newer system for less than even a pentax 645d.

And for what it's worth, I bought a leica 120mm, use it next to all my contax lenses and don't see any difference in sharpness, with the only change being the leica lenses have a smoother roll off than the contax zeiss and not as much bite, but other than that, no loss, no problem.

I hope Pentax sells a lot of cameras and obviously there is pent up demand for a lower cost medium format style system, though without a tethering suite I don't know how far it's going to go with professionals and at this point, most pros have some sort of medium format system anyway.

Now the upside of the Leica to Contax and H adapter is I'll probably stay with the system for a long time, though I tend to to that with all my cameras, but still cameras are not my concern anymore as I believe still cameras pretty much leveled out 5 years ago.

Ask a 25 something year old what their big camera is and it's a 5d3 or a d800 their small camera . . . an I phone.

IMO

BC


Logged

bcooter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1520
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #52 on: September 07, 2014, 04:23:18 pm »

I think RED is going to be the next new entrant in the still photo field.

Exciting times.

Edmund

Maybe not stills, but still image only production in the commercial world is so 2007.

Red made movie and TV cameras.    It was a proven market and the place to go to get attention.  It worked . . . still does.

But RED has always called their cameras dsmc . . .  digital stills and motion camera.  

Not promising to produce a still the quality of a 50mpx digital back, or even a 35mpx still dslr, but a camera than can cross territory in the new age.

Prior to digital, (In commerce) still photography was becoming more and more marginalized.  First through broadcast television,  then cable advertising and now the web, because all offer a moving pallet.

Now  to qualify my thoughts, I think only in the realm of the commercial arts.   Love photography, it's been my career my adult life and never a hobby, which is a plus making a living at what I love, but I don't let love get in the way of business.

In business the lines are crossing where motion and stills are intertwined.   Still imagery in motion content, motion content turned to stills, all the productions wrapped into one.

From a technical standpoint, the software of motion to stills is not that far apart, the cameras are also combining functions, so if you can work light-room, give it a week and you can work Resolve.

below from resolve 9


Doesn't mean there isn't and won't continue to  be specialists production companies that only shot motion, photographers that only shoot stills, but digital has brought them closer together than ever and this is just the start of new requirements, not the end.

This type of thought is a hard sell on this forum because it's historically based on still photography, mostly landscapes and inanimate objects where sharp clear detail matters as much as the content, to some people it seems to matter more.

But in the new world of commercial production, it's all about the concept, the story, the look, the creative brief and the ability to play on multiple platforms at once, but today . . . it really about ROI.

Everybody advertiser and editorial platform wants as much content they can get for the budget and the time.

I think RED saw this coming, in fact I know they did because from the start their marketing centered on movies, commercials, TV projects and editorial stills.

RED's cameras  make great motion imagery and under certain situations pretty good stills.  I see A level movie posters that were produced from RED capture, (which isn't a leap given the level of post production and retouching on movie posters)

But REDs  are  not small, have a sensor format for motion and if you've worked one for a day hand held you'll be tired.   It is a serious piece of equipment, though a horizontal format isn't a problem anymore because 75% of all our comissioned work is horizontal, still or motion.

RED also is the only motion camera company that pretty much covered everything from the start, from lenses, the bodies, accessories and grading/processing suites hooked to their own graphics accelerators.

Will there be a time when one camera can do it all.  Maybe . . . probably because that's what the commercial market is asking for.  

But is Annoucekina the place for RED?  . . . yes and no though they'll be there, but in a few years photokina will be seeing a lot more companies like RED.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 08:49:49 pm by bcooter »
Logged

Theodoros

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2454
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #53 on: September 07, 2014, 04:38:25 pm »

I never would have considered a Leica S2 except that Leica was smart enough to give me full use of my Contax lenses.  Autofocus, auto diaphragm, everything.

It allowed me to buy into a newer system for less than even a pentax 645d.

And for what it's worth, I bought a leica 120mm, use it next to all my contax lenses and don't see any difference in sharpness, with the only change being the leica lenses have a smoother roll off than the contax zeiss and not as much bite, but other than that, no loss, no problem.

I hope Pentax sells a lot of cameras and obviously there is pent up demand for a lower cost medium format style system, though without a tethering suite I don't know how far it's going to go with professionals and at this point, most pros have some sort of medium format system anyway.

Now the upside of the Leica to Contax and H adapter is I'll probably stay with the system for a long time, though I tend to to that with all my cameras, but still cameras are not my concern anymore as I believe still cameras pretty much leveled out 5 years ago.

Ask a 25 something year old what their big camera is and it's a 5d3 or a d800 their small camera . . . an I phone.

IMO

BC



It's surprising that in Hasselblad they totally ignore a photographer's needs... I also use C645 as my main system, alongside a Fuji GX680 (with C645 plate on it) and an Imacon 528c back since high resolution and "true colour" is essential for what provides mostly for me (art reproduction). If MS wasn't in my needs, I would have already invested on Leica S2 as well! I might as well do if they improve their high Iso performance in a future model... I'll then get rid of my Nikon system and have it covered with a Leica body, their 24mm lens and a Contax adapter since I have all the lenses but the 350mm for my Contax system.
 But with Hasselblad, it is surprising how they ignore their older customers... I would love to add a 200MS back in my system... but since I can't, a Sinar E-xact is the only alternative I have... It will immediately integrate in my system and along with a future Leica S Cmos sensor body will fulfil any photographer's dream... To work with as little equipment as possible for as many projects as possible without compromising in quality at all!  ;)

EDIT: Why is it Leica/Sinar the only one that can provide effective solutions for real photography? ...I don't believe it's by accident!  :-X
Another Thing, I believe they should consider in the next Leica-S (other that the high Iso) to work with Copal on a faster phocal plane shutter that would be able to provide 1/250 flash-sync. speed... I believe that with today's materials and technology it is feasible despite the shutter's extra mass from 35mm... It will shoot the camera's demand over the roof.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 05:02:01 pm by Theodoros »
Logged

bcooter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1520
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #54 on: September 07, 2014, 08:27:25 pm »

Having heard both sides of the arguments from the respective companies, Phase and Hasselblad, I understood why Hasselblad closed off their system.

After all they were selling the less profitable part for another company to sell the more profitable part.  

That like me giving another photographer our studios, crew, credit lines, equipment and taking less income for it.   No company could, or would do that and honestly the only people pissed about it were Phase owners that didn't like the Mamiya solution.

The only downside to Hasselblad is it hurt them PR wise and of course the way around this was to make a superior digital back, maybe a newer better integrated camera (obviously better, open sourced software) and try like crazy to get the price point down.

Then the rumbling would  have stopped.

That's kind of what the Pentax is, a low cost medium format camera, at least the body . . . the lenses are another matter, the software and tethering I don't know about, though I don't think Pentax is aiming at the professional advertising photographer, I would imagine it's the serious enthusiast and maybe the portrait/wedding crowd.

But in reality, medium format is a limited market.

IMO

BC
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 08:50:34 pm by bcooter »
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #55 on: September 07, 2014, 09:00:05 pm »

You know, J, for once I disagree in spite of your business savvy. Hassy had arguably the more modern body and lenses, and you can make steady money off lenses, they could have made money off body upgrades eg. from H3 to H4 with the better focus and LCD etc etc.  There was no reason to keep the huge prices as they were selling via guys like B&H, and had good links with traditional photo shops, and there was no reason to lock the system against reuse of their own old backs. And in fact, there was probably little reason to lock it against third party backs as the very fact that the system was open would have driven third party back prices down over time and increased lens and body sales. You know something - I believe they made a mistake by entering the back business at all, or rather by merging the operations of Imacon (backs) with Hasselblad (cameras). The huge initial sensor prices created that inflated pricing model and the high prices became addictive and removed the focus from the camera and lenses.

Edmund

Having heard both sides of the arguments from the respective companies, Phase and Hasselblad, I understood why Hasselblad closed off their system.

After all they were selling the less profitable part for another company to sell the more profitable part.  

« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 09:06:12 pm by eronald »
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

bcooter

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1520
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #56 on: September 07, 2014, 09:04:53 pm »

You know, J, for once I disagree in spite of your business savvy. Hassy had arguably the more modern lenses, and you can make steady money off lenses, they could have made money off body upgrades eg. from H3 to H4 with the better focus and LCD etc etc.  There was no reason to keep the huge prices as they were selling via guys like B&H, and had good links with traditional photo shops, and there was no reason to lock the system against reuse of their own old backs. And in fact, there was probably little reason to lock it against third party backs as the very fact that the system was open would have driven third party back prices down over time and increased lens and body sales.

Edmund


I agree that Hasselblad went too far, just don't agree that they should have been the phase one platform of choice.

I also am perplexed as to why a digital solution mattered in the world of cameras.

Hasselblad, Nikon, Canon . . .  never had a film solution or made money of processing, but I guess did pretty well in the photo biz, but then once digital camera out every dealer would say, Contax, Bronica, Minolta, almost Leica went down because they didn't have a digital solution for their cameras. 

I would have thought selling cameras and lenses would have been enough, but then again if I watched Phase sell $30,000 backs that went on my cameras, I guess I'd build my own back . . . the problem was at the time they didn't build it better.

IMO

BC
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #57 on: September 07, 2014, 09:10:04 pm »


I would have thought selling cameras and lenses would have been enough, but then again if I watched Phase sell $30,000 backs that went on my cameras, I guess I'd build my own back . . . the problem was at the time they didn't build it better.

IMO

BC

The problem was the huge back prices became addictive and the tail wagged the dog.
Also, Phase got Microsoft backing AFAIK, and at that point the issues of competing became predictable ...whatever the technical quality of the product.
Hassy are still around with decent hardware, a bit like Apple stuck around like a zombie for a while, not quite realizing that "not PC-compatible" was a clinical euphemism for "multiple organ failure". I guess if no one drives a stake through their heart a miracle could happen and the the brand could still revive. Innovation can sometimes do wonders for tech companies :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: September 07, 2014, 10:42:48 pm by eronald »
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald

JV

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1013
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2014, 09:13:14 pm »

Contax, Bronica, Minolta, almost Leica went down because they didn't have a digital solution for their cameras. 

Add Frank & Heidecke (Rollei) to that list which was later resurrected as DHW...

In the digital medium format world in my opinion the numbers are simply too small to only survive on bodies and lenses.

On a different note, the digital X-PAN rumor is back… :)

Meanwhile, recent rumors suggest that the Hasselblad Digital X-Pan could finally be appearing at Photokina this year.
Reports say that the compact DSLR will boast a customized sensor (24mm x 65mm with 1.5 cropping).
It is rumored to be priced at around $8000, joining the Leica M price range.
Logged

eronald

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6642
    • My gallery on Instagram
Re: Michael's Pentax 645z Review
« Reply #59 on: September 07, 2014, 09:17:36 pm »

Add Frank & Heidecke (Rollei) to that list which was later resurrected as DHW...

In the digital medium format world in my opinion the numbers are simply too small to only survive on bodies and lenses.

On a different note, the digital X-PAN rumor is back… :)

Meanwhile, recent rumors suggest that the Hasselblad Digital X-Pan could finally be appearing at Photokina this year.
Reports say that the compact DSLR will boast a customized sensor (24mm x 65mm with 1.5 cropping).
It is rumored to be priced at around $8000, joining the Leica M price range.


yes, yes, it helps that this is a nice format for video ;)

Edmund
Logged
If you appreciate my blog posts help me by following on https://instagram.com/edmundronald
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4 5   Go Up