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Author Topic: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?  (Read 11335 times)

eronald

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #40 on: September 02, 2014, 03:54:31 pm »

Well, I was under the impression that planes used as a media don't count!  ;D  

I'm sowry, I feel gilty that I drifted off, hijacked, and hogged your flying pig thread, you must be bristling, I was impossibly boared, but I'll stop hamming it up now.

Edmund
« Last Edit: September 02, 2014, 04:31:51 pm by eronald »
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #41 on: September 02, 2014, 04:37:58 pm »

I am sorry I had to make so many posts on the impossibility of using MS in the field. I have tried it my self when I first got my 528c and did the same as Brent suggests, shoot a single shot image along it and try to replace the parts that were obvious that have movement. The thing is, that you end up with an image that has no detail difference than if shot in single-shot, nor you get any colour benefit. It simply isn't the same as sooting an interior scene of a building where you have some windows with curtains and you only replace the window part... It's a total mesh what you get, there is practically blur spread all over the scene.

Back to the original question though, I would much agree with Edna's suggestion that a Monolith-2 or an Ultima would be the best choice with the lenses he suggested. However, my opinion still remains that both those cameras are better used with lower resolution backs with larger pixels, even if the lenses are capable to work with a 6μm pixel size back, there will still be better performance when movements are involved and more movement tolerance in addition.

OTOH, with the cost involved (especially of the monolith) and if MS is out of the question, why one should not consider adding the new Cambo Actus along with a Sony A7 to his system? He may then use Mamiya 645 Pro lenses (or some other MF of 6x6 image size) which are dirt cheap and because the lens mounts at larger distance from the image area there shouldn't be any problem with the small pixels of the 36mp sensor. Additionally, I suspect that the Samyang 24mm f3.5 P/C lens has enough image circle to solve the wider angle that one may need. Same should apply for the old Nikkors 35mm P/C & 28mm P/C which are very sharp lenses. Such a solution would add the valuable contribution of LV to the equation and would save much space and time, still giving superb results.


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Dustbak

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #42 on: September 02, 2014, 04:55:23 pm »

Okay let us end this "It Does Not Work" blah blah from Theodoros. Below is a link to a blog page where Les Walkling explains it better than I could. Complete with pics. Shooting 200 ms multishot images on location in the great outdoors. Les and I discussed this process and the miss matching file sizes after being put in touch by the then Australia Blad rep Colin Johnston.

I started doing this process in 2007 with a 528C when on a road trip. Just one of those try a "what would happen if" pie in the sky idea. Amazing stuff gets discovered that way. Take a chance beyond the excepted norm sometime. You might discover something brave, new and exciting. Like the world being round.

Hey Les. I hope you not mind me linking to your blog post in the interest of education.

http://www.leswalkling.com/tethering-the-h4d-200ms-in-the-field/

Theodoros. Please note that I post under my full real name. You can easily check if I am just a forum info spouter. I hope you enjoy Wes's blog post.

Cheers
Brent Daniels

Just to add another voice.  I have been using a 384, 528, Jenoptik M22, CF39MS and with most of these I have one more than one occassion used the technique of making a single shot of a scene followed by a multishot and blending in the single shot on the parts that are not perfect in the multishot (indeed the cf39ms gave some issues with lining up).

I know more people that do the same thing. I am flabbergasted about someone dismissing it outright.

BTW, I bought my first V Ixpress adapter from you Brent. It served me well over the years :)

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Jim Kasson

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2014, 05:28:29 pm »

After all, if one is to experiment with such a process, why not use a scanning back as it was mentioned earlier? ...what the advantage of using an MS back would be? ...there isn't any! ...is there?  

I have been using a Betterlight Super6K on (in?) a Linhof Master Technika in the field for several years. Although I'm not using it as recommended by the manufacturer, I've subjected myself to the difficulties of field operation of a scanning back for some time. I also have a Hasselblad H2D-39 that I've used in the field for comparison, although it's not a multishot back.

The advantages that I see for the MS approach are:

Lower weight. The computer is a wash, but the Betterlight needs a 4x5 camera, while a Hassy back can use a smaller one. The lenses are smaller, too, for the same angle of view. The Betterlight back may not itself weigh much more than a Hassy back, but it needs the controller and a separate battery pack.

Fewer things to mess with in the field. No separate battery pack, no controller. No cables from the battery to the controller, or from the controller to the back.

You can make single shot images with the same gear. That's huge, IMHO.

I would think that the motion artifacts of the scanning back would be easier to deal with than the ones of the MS back, since the scan lines are usually separated by 1/300 second or so. Rapid motion can produce ugly false color artifacts with a scanning back. I don't know about that with an MS back.

Jim

Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #44 on: September 02, 2014, 05:58:00 pm »

I have been using a Betterlight Super6K on (in?) a Linhof Master Technika in the field for several years. Although I'm not using it as recommended by the manufacturer, I've subjected myself to the difficulties of field operation of a scanning back for some time. I also have a Hasselblad H2D-39 that I've used in the field for comparison, although it's not a multishot back.

The advantages that I see for the MS approach are:

Lower weight. The computer is a wash, but the Betterlight needs a 4x5 camera, while a Hassy back can use a smaller one. The lenses are smaller, too, for the same angle of view. The Betterlight back may not itself weigh much more than a Hassy back, but it needs the controller and a separate battery pack.

Fewer things to mess with in the field. No separate battery pack, no controller. No cables from the battery to the controller, or from the controller to the back.

You can make single shot images with the same gear. That's huge, IMHO.

I would think that the motion artifacts of the scanning back would be easier to deal with than the ones of the MS back, since the scan lines are usually separated by 1/300 second or so. Rapid motion can produce ugly false color artifacts with a scanning back. I don't know about that with an MS back.

Jim
I am not suggesting a scanning back instead of an MS back Jim, all I am saying is that because of the 1/300 (or so) scanning speed the result will be superior than using MS... With MS you can't even spot the areas that are problematic unless you compare them very carefully with the single shot image. Then, if one uses it for similar to landscape work, he realises that he better keep the whole single shot image instead. MS backs (especially 528c/22ms Sinar54h and now E-xact that can do real 16x) are superb tools if used for the purpose they have been designed to serve, it simply is against their nature if they are forced to work in an environment that involves movements. The "replacement" technique can be very valuable in some Architectural or interior photography, but that's about it.
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Brent Daniels

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #45 on: September 02, 2014, 08:41:09 pm »

Not all pixels are created equal. Theodoros, you yourself have stated many times that the pixels from an uninterpolated multishot file is far superior to an even larger amount of single shot interpolated pixels.

Some may not like this method but to state it does not work is incorrect. It does work very effectively for the ones that utilize it correctly.

In some shots I have had only a 10% of a 4 shot file that has need to be replaced by 1 shot. At other times 75% has been 1 shot with 4 shot detail brushed into specific detailed parts. To me the difference between the detail quality of the 4 shot multi with stone, gravel, tree trunks, moire areas, and other hard no movement items is so worth the extra effort when your view the combined files.

On all my images (in post) I use at least 2 forms of sharpening, never over an entire image, always brushed in specifically. Adding some uninterpolated 4 shot image bits where I can is basically the same thing. Simple fast and much more effective than any form of camera or post sharpening.

On location I use the straight Blad and multi is a very quick and fast option that I can capture at the time so it is an extremely effective tool. Plus way way bloody easier and faster than shifting & stitching.

All those one shot people are stuck doing the shift & stitch. With my Blad multishot (39ms) I have more options. The camera is only 1 cm longer in the back. So I do what I do .............and it works for me. 
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gigdagefg

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #46 on: September 02, 2014, 09:11:33 pm »

Plus 1 to Enda's response

Stanley
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EricWHiss

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2014, 02:20:30 am »

Hi Brent

Thanks.  The Hasselblad guide PDF is quite useful.  I have been working on the assumption that I will use Rollei digital lenses.  There is no way an old style mechanical shutter would make any sense.  Great in the days of film, but there are issues achieving acceptable synchronisation with Hasselblad backs, I am told.

I guess what I was hoping for when I started this thread was someone to come forward who was already using a system successfully and could set out the pros and cons from his or her direct experience. 

Hi Quentin,
I have used the CF-ii 39MS and my CF 528 digital backs from Hasselblad on my Rolleiflex 6008 and also my tech cameras  - which is a Rollei X-Act2 with electronic shutters and  lens control, and also with 4x5 LF view cameras using the same shutters.    With those backs and the rollei lens control S you just need to have the proper cables and tell either phocus or Flexcolor you are connected to a rollei lens control.   It's not all that difficult to use, but all the cables to the laptop, lens control and shutters and the devices themselves - can be cumbersome.  If you can find a way to pack it all mostly connected, it will make your field set up times much faster.    What I like to do is take one of the manfrotto super clamps and fix that low on one of the tripod legs to hold the lens control where it won't cause too much movement when you operate it.  You might want something separate for your laptop but I always just rest mine on the ground near the tripod because I'm lazy or in a hurry.

As already mentioned you can fit the actual back to anything that accepts the H mount - various sliding backs and adapter plates are available for lots of the tech cameras.   

One great thing about tech cameras and electronic shutter's for multishot is there is no mirror.  Yeah! Nothing to think about moving during the sequence.   I'm struggling to think about tips, or issues… but maybe its been too long since I've done it, because right now all I think about is all the different cables and junk to set up. Takes forever if you don't do it often.  Maybe put labels on the cable ends?

Here's a blog post I made for the older HB backs with Rollei electronic shutters and lens control that has the cable part numbers and wiring diagrams, not sure if it is the same for the newer 200MS ones or not.  http://rolleiflex.us/blogs/news-tech-tips-updates/10929025-what-cables-do-you-need-to-connect-a-hasselblad-digital-back-to-the-len-control-s


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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2014, 03:45:47 am »

Not all pixels are created equal. Theodoros, you yourself have stated many times that the pixels from an uninterpolated multishot file is far superior to an even larger amount of single shot interpolated pixels.

Some may not like this method but to state it does not work is incorrect. It does work very effectively for the ones that utilize it correctly.

In some shots I have had only a 10% of a 4 shot file that has need to be replaced by 1 shot. At other times 75% has been 1 shot with 4 shot detail brushed into specific detailed parts. To me the difference between the detail quality of the 4 shot multi with stone, gravel, tree trunks, moire areas, and other hard no movement items is so worth the extra effort when your view the combined files.

On all my images (in post) I use at least 2 forms of sharpening, never over an entire image, always brushed in specifically. Adding some uninterpolated 4 shot image bits where I can is basically the same thing. Simple fast and much more effective than any form of camera or post sharpening.

On location I use the straight Blad and multi is a very quick and fast option that I can capture at the time so it is an extremely effective tool. Plus way way bloody easier and faster than shifting & stitching.

All those one shot people are stuck doing the shift & stitch. With my Blad multishot (39ms) I have more options. The camera is only 1 cm longer in the back. So I do what I do .............and it works for me. 

But Brent, none questions the superiority of MS when compared with single-shots. But for this superiority to exist, the conditions should be the ones that support MS use, if one has grass moving, dust moving, clouds moving, leaves moving, birds flying, ...flies flying etc, there isn't any relevance with a still shot, is there? Lets suppose that one shoots a sunset right? Now everybody knows how fast the sun moves near sunset and how fast lighting changes. What can he do? Shoot the scene in single shot and then use multishot in different lighting, different angle of lighting and with the sun in different position all the time? If you look close to the pictures that you say "only 10% needs replacement, you might also consider that most of the 90% left is worst than single shot. Of course what one considers as "pass" is personal, but the question here is things improve or not.
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torger

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2014, 04:31:26 am »

Soft low contrast details won't suffer demosaicing aliasing or detail loss and thus won't gain from multishot, while tiny detailed things will. And as it happens things that move in a landscape tend to be soft low contrast sometimes smeared (clouds, motion blur leaves etc), meaning that blending in those details from the single shot won't mean that you lose any actual detail. The static subjects (tree trunks, finely structured rocks etc) will still enjoy lack of aliasing and improved detail.

If you have a combination of fast-moving light and long exposure times you will get issues of course, as you will have with stitching. The technique won't be practical in all conditions, but obviously in quite many. The nice thing is that you'll always have the single shot to fall back to. A failed stitch is a failed stitch, while a failed multi-shot with this technique is a perfectly good single shot.
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torger

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2014, 04:36:06 am »

A question to you multishot back users -- I know tethered is an absolute must, but I'm not sure if electronic shutters are. Can you do multi-shot with multiple manual cocking and releasing a regular Copal shutter? Even if possible I guess it's impractical anyway as the risk of disturbing the tripod is too great when you manually touch the camera between shots.
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2014, 05:18:37 am »

A question to you multishot back users -- I know tethered is an absolute must, but I'm not sure if electronic shutters are. Can you do multi-shot with multiple manual cocking and releasing a regular Copal shutter? Even if possible I guess it's impractical anyway as the risk of disturbing the tripod is too great when you manually touch the camera between shots.
I guess it can be done, if the shutter is automatically re-cocked and there is some electronic device that can order the shutter to release synchronising it with the sequence. I believe that this is what happens with Hasselblad 503CW where one uses the winder/grip to re-cock the shutter and its own release (via the remote release input on it) to replace the mechanical shutter release that is on the body. You need an electronic control of the sequence for the shutter though, since the back has an electronic output to order the shutter release.
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Brent Daniels

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2014, 10:09:01 am »

If I remember correctly there is some way to do a multishot sequence with mechanical shutters. I think you have to use the "pinhole camera" setting on the back under camera setting and a long enough delay setting in Phocus to allow time to cock the shutter. However I am sure it would be a short & fast way to loose all your hair through frustration.

Cables & laptop power and such bits are a big part of shooting digital now. I guess they have replaced all the film & polaroid we had to carry around. One word of advice. Always have more than one of each cable on hand at all times. Especially the Hasselblad cable that goes from the back to the shutter controllers. It is a short 6" connector cable that is about $20.00. I have 4 on hand for a good reason. When first testing the H3Dll 39ms & 50ms cameras we could not get them to work. We tried all sorts of stuff and changed things over & over. Nothing could get it to work. The only thing we could not switch out was the stupid $20.00 cable as Hasselblad in Australia (CR Kennedy) in great wisdom had only 1. A week later we had 4 in hand and tried it again. Bingo. Thousand of dollars of gear all crashed by a $20.00 cable!

For shooting any medium format on location where there is no power it is very worthwhile to search out an older MacBook Pro. The last pre Retina version. They have the nice matt screen, firewire, USB, and TB ports. Plus they put out more power than the Retina. The Retina really needs a powered firewire 800 hub. I have one as a back up to my Retina version, which only connects via the TB / firewire 800 adaptor, which I keep 3 of. After one failure you learn your lesson.

The 200ms has an extra battery system for when off the camera so the Retina low output power may not be a big deal when tethered. Or can you use that battery when tethered? Another thing to ask Hasselblad.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2014, 10:20:06 am »

I cannot help thinking that spherical stitching is a much better solution... ;)

Either with a traditional sensor or with a Foveon one for those who would doubt the pixel quality of modern bayer sensors.

Cheers,
Bernard

Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2014, 10:37:33 am »

I cannot help thinking that spherical stitching is a much better solution... ;)

Either with a traditional sensor or with a Foveon one for those who would doubt the pixel quality of modern bayer sensors.

Cheers,
Bernard

I don't think that spherical stitching was ever to the O/P's mind... neither panos are discussed here or have been put as a subject... What is "better" in a subject that hasn't been set?  ???
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2014, 10:50:01 am »

I don't think that spherical stitching was ever to the O/P's mind... neither panos are discussed here or have been put as a subject... What is "better" in a subject that hasn't been set?  ???

Aren't we discussing the way to reach very high levels of image quality?

Cheers,
Bernard

Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2014, 11:13:38 am »

Aren't we discussing the way to reach very high levels of image quality?

Cheers,
Bernard

Not in spherical or other panos...  ??? We are discussing optimum solutions for 200MS used with a tech or view camera and the possibility of using MS in the field... I guess you should read the previous posts before you post. :P Thanks for the will as to teach us on how to achieve best quality (in spherical or other panos) though...  ;)
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2014, 05:07:21 pm »

Not in spherical or other panos...  ??? We are discussing optimum solutions for 200MS used with a tech or view camera and the possibility of using MS in the field... I guess you should read the previous posts before you post. :P Thanks for the will as to teach us on how to achieve best quality (in spherical or other panos) though...  ;)

I guess that I was mislead by comments about scanning backs that you had kindly tolerated. ;) I do understand the fun of applying solutions designed for the studio in the field, I intend to do that with my BL scanning back too and have been preparing for this. Movements on the 4x5 could make that somehow valuable but image quality isn't clearly ahead because of the much higher level of noise in all but perfect light conditions, unfortunately.

Anyway, back on multishot, merging a single exposure with multishot ones is obviously the right thing to do. This is the same technique often used when doing DoF stacking.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 05:18:17 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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NickT

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2014, 06:46:56 pm »

I am Late on this thread but just wanted to say that the way Brent describes shooting multi-shot on location is EXACTLY the method I used to use. I shot location interiors and exteriors for years using multi-shot and the results were outstanding. For someone to suggest it can't be done is just trolling IMO.

Nick-T
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Theodoros

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Re: Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?
« Reply #59 on: September 03, 2014, 06:53:47 pm »

..........exteriors for years using multi-shot and the results were outstanding.

Nick-T
Can you please post some of the outstanding results over the years?

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