Hasselblad 200MS back on tech camera - options?

[Quentin]

Dear All

I am considering what the best options might be for using my Hassy H5D 200MS back on a technical camera in the field (i.e. not the studio).  I will need tilt, shift and some stitching capability.

I have tried and failed to grapple with the HTS 1.5.  Therefore, disregard this a an option, because I will not use it.

Hasselblad have published their own paper on tech cam / digital lens compatibility, and I link their note (in PDF format) to this message.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9806585/July_2014_onwards/TechCameraConectivity-12.pdf

My requirements are

1.  Minimum weight.  This is for backpacking.

2.  To use multishot, I appreciate i will have to shoot in to Phocus - which means carrying a lightweight laptop around with me.  That is not an issue per se.  

Any thoughts, or better still, actual user experience with a similar setup?  What is the best solution?  I am liaising with Hassy UK, where I am based.

I am familiar with all the obvious stuff; my concerns are to choose the right path - minimum weight, high quality, relevant movements, easy of use.  Within reason, price is not an issue. I note Rodenstock and Schneider use different systems for their lenses to synchronise the digital back and lens. I am not familar with their latest generation digital LF lenses, so this is an area where input would be appreciated.  Wide angle only.

Quentin

[MrSmith]

“in the field” ? i have used a multishot back on a camera stand (not a tripod) and have had jaggies on edges and a failed capture when somebody has walked across the studio, lorry has gone past or the light output has changed slightly due to heads/packs set on low power.
i’m wondering how you are going to capture anything “in the field” without errors/movement?

[Paul2660]

This back should very well with tech lenses, as I believe it has no micro lenses.  

Your wide selection, 35XL Schneider 43XL Schneider  or 40 HR-W Rodenstock, 32 HR-W Rodenstock.  
Schneider 35XL is much lighter, needs a physical CF, and may have limited shift issues.  On a 60MP back Dalsa the 35XL is pretty limited to 8mm or so of Shift.  You can easily get 15mm of shift with either of the Rodenstocks (40mm or 32mm), however it comes at a price, as the 40mm is around 6K mounted in Arca or Cambo and the 32mm approaches 9.5K mounted.  All 3 have 90mm image circles.  The 43XL can get to about 12mm of shift at F11 and I feel it also benefits from a physical CF.

The wider 23 HR and 28 HR Rodenstocks are excellent optics, but have only 70mm image circles so shifting is very limited to around 5mm or so.  May be a bit more rise/fall.

Medium range, the Schneider 60XL is an excellent all round lens, very sharp and can shift to 25mm or so, maybe more on the 200MS.  Larger IC at 110mm and again not very heavy.  The Rodenstock 70mm in the series with the 40mm is also very good.  

Longer Range
90mm Rodenstock HR-SW (has a yellow band around lens) their best in class, hard to find and again in the 8K range mounted, but tack sharp.  I have briefly shot with one and it is impressive.  This version requires a back extension which the 90 HR-W and 90HR don't need.  I have the 90mm HR and for my needs it's very good.  It has a very persistent flare problem that can ruin a great series of shots and you really have to look for it during your shooting.  This flare can easily happen with the sun at your back which is surprising to me.  Supposedly the newer HR-W is better on this issue and the HR-SW even more.

100mm Schenider, supposedly did ship, but huge order seemed to go to China so supply is tight.  And have not seen much about this lens in reviews and if it's still shipping.  What I did read about it was small like the 120mm and large image circle.  I still am considering it to replace my 90mm HR both for weight and the flare issues.

120mm Schenider, Apo Digitar F5.6 not the older version.  This lens is excellent and can be used for some macro work (it's not the dedicated macro lens).  It's very small in weight, but does need the back extension.  

There are also 150mm lenses out there, but to me the issues with them on a tech setup outweight the cost, as focus can be tedious.  

Congratulations on the 200MS

Paul

[jbaxendell]

Are you planning to use an electronic shutter?

[Brent Daniels]

It is very possible to use multi-shot in the field. Beyond the base consideration that there must be absolutely no camera movement there are a few basic shooting and post techniques that are required to ensure there are no effects of movement in the final image. It takes some extra time but the difference in the detail is well with the effort.
Using an electronic shutter system I think would be a must to remove any chance of camera movement and to speed up the multi-shot process.

[Theodoros]

Dear All

I am considering what the best options might be for using my Hassy H5D 200MS back on a technical camera in the field (i.e. not the studio).  I will need tilt, shift and some stitching capability.

I have tried and failed to grapple with the HTS 1.5.  Therefore, disregard this a an option, because I will not use it.

Hasselblad have published their own paper on tech cam / digital lens compatibility, and I link their note (in PDF format) to this message.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/9806585/July_2014_onwards/TechCameraConectivity-12.pdf

My requirements are

1.  Minimum weight.  This is for backpacking.

2.  To use multishot, I appreciate i will have to shoot in to Phocus - which means carrying a lightweight laptop around with me.  That is not an issue per se.  

Any thoughts, or better still, actual user experience with a similar setup?  What is the best solution?  I am liaising with Hassy UK, where I am based.

I am familiar with all the obvious stuff; my concerns are to choose the right path - minimum weight, high quality, relevant movements, easy of use.  Within reason, price is not an issue. I note Rodenstock and Schneider use different systems for their lenses to synchronise the digital back and lens. I am not familar with their latest generation digital LF lenses, so this is an area where input would be appreciated.  Wide angle only.

Quentin

Use MS in the field?  ....forget it!  MS is for completely steady conditions... not leaf movements, nor grass movements neither for curtain movements. 

[Theodoros]

It is very possible to use multi-shot in the field. Beyond the base consideration that there must be absolutely no camera movement there are a few basic shooting and post techniques that are required to ensure there are no effects of movement in the final image. It takes some extra time but the difference in the detail is well with the effort.
Using an electronic shutter system I think would be a must to remove any chance of camera movement and to speed up the multi-shot process.

Sure!  ...have you done it Brent? ..or is there another you know that has?  If you have may we see the results? 

[Paul2660]

In the field to me the biggest issue is just simple subject movement, unless it's rock.  Leaves or grass or any plant will almost always have a bit of movement.  I guess you could use the back in a single shot mode.  Still have 50MP.  

It would be interesting to see water movement and how that works.  

With your tech lenses, most will default to a copol 0 shutter, which could cause some movement, just in the process of re-cocking the shutter.  However there seem to be electronic shutters from Schneider and others out there.  Major limitation is shutter speeds they can offer and the fact they require a PC currently to fire them.  I keep reading rumors of a newer line of shutters that will use a USB dongle or similar to fire and have a lot more range in available shutter speeds.  

Hopefully Cambo and Acra can come up with a solution similar to the FPS from Alpa.  

The FPS (if you can handle the cost) is impressive as you can use 35mm lenses or tech lenses.  Lots of good info out there on the web on usage of the Canon TS-E 17mm and 24mm with the FPS and the IQ250, starting at the Alpa website.

Paul

[MrSmith]

It is very possible to use multi-shot in the field. Beyond the base consideration that there must be absolutely no camera movement there are a few basic shooting and post techniques that are required to ensure there are no effects of movement in the final image. It takes some extra time but the difference in the detail is well with the effort.
Using an electronic shutter system I think would be a must to remove any chance of camera movement and to speed up the multi-shot process.

But nothing must move. So a cloudless sky on an absolutely still windless day, while I appreciate these conditions can and do exist they are quite rare.

[Quentin]

Thanks for the replies so far.  Please take it as read that I am fully aware of the issues and limitations in using a multishot camera in the field.  I have used scan backs outside a studio environment and I have already used the 200MS for interiors in the same situation.  As Brent says, is is possible to use Muti shot in the field, albeit in limited circumstances.

Where multi-shot is not possible, then I will, of course, use single shot.  The point is I have the option of using multi shot when it is possible to do so, but in order to do so, I will need connection to a laptop with Phocus software running.

I will also be using a digital lens.

What I am really looking for are users of H series backs on techical cameras with a digital lens.  The Hassy paper I linked to sets out some options - any thoughts on which is best?

[Brent Daniels]

Yes I have utilized multi-shot in the field. Many times. With a 528C , H3Dll 39ms, and H3Dll 50ms , but only in 4 shot mode. Both with the H body and an Arca M-Line 6x9 with Rollei shutters. There is a well known landscape photographer (cannot recall his name) based in Australia that shoots a H4Dll 200ms using multi-shot. So it is being done successfully. It is actually simpler than doing the shift and stitching techniques that many on LuLu use.

That 1 shot & 4 shot Hasselblad captures will basically match exactly if processed the same is what makes this work. It was easier with a 528C as the 2 types of files matched up exactly pixel position wise in post. From the H3Dll series the single and multi do not match up exactly pixel position wise. They have to be manually lined up, but 3 clicks on the keyboard in post at 200% is no big deal.

The wind movement effects on grass, leaves, and such is very easy to deal with. Quickly changing light sadly is something that cannot be dealt with, as it is with stitching. The detail in hard non moving things such as stone, brick, pavement, tree trunks and such is simply worth the extra bit of effort & time. In some cases I think that this multi-shot technique could give a better end result than a larger file obtained by shifting/stitching as the fine detail from a multi-shot capture is greater than a single shot.

It is simple. When shooting you shoot 1 and 4 shot matching pairs. One right after the other with matching f-stop and shutter speed. Process the images at the same process settings. In PS layer the 1 shot on top of the 4 shot and match up the images. 528C image layers will line up pixel to pixel. H3Dll or newer require a few clicks at 200% to line up. Apply a black mask to the 1 shot layer. Check the multi shot layer at 200% for movement effect patterns. Brush the 1 shot layer over the movement effected areas of the multi shot. Depending on the images and amount of area effected by movement you can bush the wanted multi-shot detail into a 1 shot image.   

[Brent Daniels]

If you plan on using electronic shutters you should check which tech cameras focusing systems will work with electronic shutters. That may shorten the list of possibilities.

[MrSmith]

If you don't use it already difference mode on the 4shot layer at 100% will instantly show you the areas that have moved and need the single shot brushed through and is a quicker/easier way of aligning layers.

[Theodoros]

Yes I have utilized multi-shot in the field. Many times. With a 528C , H3Dll 39ms, and H3Dll 50ms , but only in 4 shot mode. Both with the H body and an Arca M-Line 6x9 with Rollei shutters. There is a well known landscape photographer (cannot recall his name) based in Australia that shoots a H4Dll 200ms using multi-shot. So it is being done successfully. It is actually simpler than doing the shift and stitching techniques that many on LuLu use.

That 1 shot & 4 shot Hasselblad captures will basically match exactly if processed the same is what makes this work. It was easier with a 528C as the 2 types of files matched up exactly pixel position wise in post. From the H3Dll series the single and multi do not match up exactly pixel position wise. They have to be manually lined up, but 3 clicks on the keyboard in post at 200% is no big deal.

The wind movement effects on grass, leaves, and such is very easy to deal with. Quickly changing light sadly is something that cannot be dealt with, as it is with stitching. The detail in hard non moving things such as stone, brick, pavement, tree trunks and such is simply worth the extra bit of effort & time. In some cases I think that this multi-shot technique could give a better end result than a larger file obtained by shifting/stitching as the fine detail from a multi-shot capture is greater than a single shot.

It is simple. When shooting you shoot 1 and 4 shot matching pairs. One right after the other with matching f-stop and shutter speed. Process the images at the same process settings. In PS layer the 1 shot on top of the 4 shot and match up the images. 528C image layers will line up pixel to pixel. H3Dll or newer require a few clicks at 200% to line up. Apply a black mask to the 1 shot layer. Check the multi shot layer at 200% for movement effect patterns. Brush the 1 shot layer over the movement effected areas of the multi shot. Depending on the images and amount of area effected by movement you can bush the wanted multi-shot detail into a 1 shot image.   

Can we see some of the results Brent ? ...I use the 528c on a daily basis... Thomas and Theodoros both start with TH... 

[Theodoros]

I call Gurski! ... "man you are fool not to use MS in the field!" ...you are soon about to be beaten! 

[Brent Daniels]

Yes the difference layer mode is great in lining up the two layers. The difference layer mode also helps find movement pixel areas quickly but I like to go back to normal mode to better see the effects when brushing/blending the two layers together. It is a quick process.

It is important to make sure the 1 & 4 shot images to be mixed were shot at the same f-stop.

I worked out the exact layer shift amount using test shots of a lens chart set and have it noted down. I think the multi file is a couple pixels wider and a pixel higher. We talked to Hasselblad about doing something in the processing, or providing an exact script but it was not worth their time.  No idea why they could not make it match the 1 shot in the processing, besides the loss of a few pixels out of 200mpx.

I shot some auto parts still life images with a 5Dll a little while ago. I am so used to the non anti aliasing of multi-shot that all the multi coloured pixel/speckle like anti aliasing of the details freaked me out. Then it dawned on me that was just what 35mm digital looked like.

Theordoros. I would have to search hard drives for a good sample. PM and I will arrange to let you look at something. Putting a LR jpeg up on here shows nothing.

[Quentin]

Clearly my mistake was to mention multi shot, as that subject has somewhat taken over this thread...

If anyone can read the Hassy PDF I linked to in my first message and comment on that and their experiences if any on the use of an H back with at tech cam light enough to use for location photography, that would be very helpful.  

Mutishot is fascinating, but its not the primary point of this thread.

[Brent Daniels]

I call Gurski! ... "man you are fool not to use MS in the field!" ...you are soon about to be beaten! 

A camera is just tool. Pick the best tool for the specific job. Big hammer .....little hammer ......... makes no difference if you cannot hit the nail!

[Theodoros]

A camera is just tool. Pick the best tool for the specific job. Big hammer .....little hammer ......... makes no difference if you cannot hit the nail!

Yeah... but here its "calling" not "picking"!  ...now where is Gursky? (so that we can talk about "picking"? 

[Joe Towner]

What focal lengths are you looking to use, and how much tilt/swing/shift are you looking to accomplish? 

Did you dig into what Silvestri offers, has their Flexicam may be what you're looking for...  http://www.silvestricamera.com/eng/prodotti_eng/Flexicam/Flexicam_eng.htm