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Author Topic: Say so long to ICC profiles  (Read 5462 times)

donbga

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Say so long to ICC profiles
« on: August 29, 2014, 10:28:01 pm »

Posted on TOP today,  Ctein is reported to have stated, "...that printer profiles were overrated and that we should have the courage to ignore them and trust the printer to manage colors."

I feel like such a fool now having purchased a Spectro and profiling software. I'm devastated in fact.  :o

Don Bryant
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 12:25:49 am by donbga »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Say so long to ICC profiles
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2014, 11:10:05 pm »

I wouldn't be too devastated without having tested both options with my printer on a wide range of photographs.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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pfigen

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Re: Say so long to ICC profiles
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2014, 11:36:51 pm »

What do you think is actually happening when you choose Printer Manages Color?
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TylerB

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Re: Say so long to ICC profiles
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2014, 12:01:59 am »

I read somewhere on the internets that you cant always believe everything you read on the internets.

It's astonishing to me, after all these years, how color management is still so fundamentally misunderstood, and mistakenly applied, or not applied.
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PeterAit

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Re: Say so long to ICC profiles
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2014, 07:13:01 am »

... and trust the printer to manage colors."


Which it does using ... drum roll please ... a printer profile!

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TonyW

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Re: Say so long to ICC profiles
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2014, 08:45:08 am »

Any link to where Ctein made the statement?  Sounds a little strange as I am pretty sure that he extolled the virtues of either making your own (using ColorMunki I think) or using a profile provider e.g. Cathy's profiles.  Could the quote have been taken out of context or has he indeed arrived at that conclusion?
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Say so long to ICC profiles
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2014, 09:17:50 am »

What do you think is actually happening when you choose Printer Manages Color?

I believe what happens is that the printer is using a canned profile provided with the printer software that is calculated to match the paper stock one selects in the printer settings. Speaking "Epson", because that is the only brand of colour inkjet printers I have ever used, because Epson professional printers are said to be manufactured to a high degree of initial uniformity (i.e. out of the box), as long as one uses an Epson paper in the list the canned profile may well work very well. When one uses third-party papers, as many of us do, or over time if the printer "drifts" (which they can), the performance of the canned profile may well become less satisfactory compared with a high quality custom ICC profile, which one uses in a conventional application-based colour management workflow.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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MHMG

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Re: Say so long to ICC profiles
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2014, 09:41:43 am »

Here's the link (I hope):

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2014/08/82914-the-morning-coffee-the-paris-meetup-thanks-franck.html

It's a quote from someone who attended and reported on T.O.P. about a recent gathering in Paris where Ctein was the main attraction. As such, I'm pretty sure Ctein would have/should have added some caveats to this apparently audacious statement, e.g., "use OEM inks and media for which a designated media setting is present in the printer driver" and "BTW, it probably works better on prosumer and pro level Epson printers that are factory calibrated) etc., etc.  Anyway, IMHO, I don't think it's all that controversial a remark worthy of "shock and awe" or troll baiting. When beginners ask me about how to acquire printmaking skill, I often suggest they start with a desktop printer using OEM ink, media, and the built in printer driver "vendor matching" before trying to get too steeped in a fully custom color managed workflow and/or third party media. I know they can make a reasonably good print if they have decent image editing skills, abeit perhaps with a few more print iterations than a more seasoned pro needs, but it's not a bad place for the novice printmaker to start. I suspect that's really what Ctein was getting at, and so I wouldn't disagree on the general merits of such a remark. My two cents. ;D

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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donbga

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Re: Say so long to ICC profiles
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2014, 09:44:44 am »

Any link to where Ctein made the statement?  Sounds a little strange as I am pretty sure that he extolled the virtues of either making your own (using ColorMunki I think) or using a profile provider e.g. Cathy's profiles.  Could the quote have been taken out of context or has he indeed arrived at that conclusion?

http://tinyurl.com/mu6vsvm

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Mark D Segal

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Re: Say so long to ICC profiles
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2014, 10:05:00 am »

Here's the link (I hope):

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2014/08/82914-the-morning-coffee-the-paris-meetup-thanks-franck.html

It's a quote from someone who attended and reported on T.O.P. about a recent gathering in Paris where Ctein was the main attraction. As such, I'm pretty sure Ctein would have/should have added some caveats to this apparently audacious statement, e.g., "use OEM inks and media for which a designated media setting is present in the printer driver" and "BTW, it probably works better on prosumer and pro level Epson printers that are factory calibrated) etc., etc.  Anyway, IMHO, I don't think it's all that controversial a remark worthy of "shock and awe" or troll baiting. When beginners ask me about how to acquire printmaking skill, I often suggest they start with a desktop printer using OEM ink, media, and the built in printer driver "vendor matching" before trying to get too steeped in a fully custom color managed workflow and/or third party media. I know they can make a reasonably good print if they have decent image editing skills, abeit perhaps with a few more print iterations than a more seasoned pro needs, but it's not a bad place for the novice printmaker to start. I suspect that's really what Ctein was getting at, and so I wouldn't disagree on the general merits of such a remark. My two cents. ;D

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com

Hi Mark,

I read the blog and I agree with you - no big deal; hard to know what he had in the back of his mind when he made it, but so what? Like with so much advice on digital imaging, there is no ultimate truth in all conditions at all times - one simply needs to try it and see whether it works for oneself.

Mark
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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TonyW

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Re: Say so long to ICC profiles
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2014, 11:15:24 am »

Here's the link (I hope):

http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2014/08/82914-the-morning-coffee-the-paris-meetup-thanks-franck.html

It's a quote from someone who attended and reported on T.O.P. about a recent gathering in Paris where Ctein was the main attraction. As such, I'm pretty sure Ctein would have/should have added some caveats to this apparently audacious statement, e.g., "use OEM inks and media for which a designated media setting is present in the printer driver" and "BTW, it probably works better on prosumer and pro level Epson printers that are factory calibrated) etc., etc.  Anyway, IMHO, I don't think it's all that controversial a remark worthy of "shock and awe" or troll baiting. When beginners ask me about how to acquire printmaking skill, I often suggest they start with a desktop printer using OEM ink, media, and the built in printer driver "vendor matching" before trying to get too steeped in a fully custom color managed workflow and/or third party media. I know they can make a reasonably good print if they have decent image editing skills, abeit perhaps with a few more print iterations than a more seasoned pro needs, but it's not a bad place for the novice printmaker to start. I suspect that's really what Ctein was getting at, and so I wouldn't disagree on the general merits of such a remark. My two cents. ;D

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
Thanks for the link - I had a DOH moment thinking TOP referred to some obscure magazine  :-[.  I agree that it is not something to get too worked up about and think that he probably had good reason to make the statement at the time.  I am sure that he will reply as others have asked for clarification and put the quote into proper context
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digitaldog

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Re: Say so long to ICC profiles
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2014, 03:32:55 pm »

I agree, much to do about nothing. As Peter points out, Printer Manages Color is using a profile or let's just say some method of converting to the native color space the driver needs. Not all profiles or conversion methods are created equally too. Personally I'd prefer to use good profiles and soft proof then decide on a rendering intent per image. Using other methods, like sending sRGB to the printer doesn't mean the print is going to be poor by any stretch of the imagination. And if you show just one method (Printer Manages Color), you've got good data, most people will say 'great print'. Unless you show them both processes, it's impossible to say which appears better so it's kind of a silly excuse to do this and suggest people not to use ICC profiles. If he even said that.
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donbga

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Re: Say so long to ICC profiles
« Reply #12 on: July 28, 2015, 05:24:48 pm »

I agree, much to do about nothing. As Peter points out, Printer Manages Color is using a profile or let's just say some method of converting to the native color space the driver needs. Not all profiles or conversion methods are created equally too. Personally I'd prefer to use good profiles and soft proof then decide on a rendering intent per image. Using other methods, like sending sRGB to the printer doesn't mean the print is going to be poor by any stretch of the imagination. And if you show just one method (Printer Manages Color), you've got good data, most people will say 'great print'. Unless you show them both processes, it's impossible to say which appears better so it's kind of a silly excuse to do this and suggest people not to use ICC profiles. If he even said that.

You guys are singing a different tune today, eh?

@Mark Aardenburg - Thanks for implying that I was trolling with my original post!
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digitaldog

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Re: Say so long to ICC profiles
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2015, 05:54:08 pm »

You guys are singing a different tune today, eh?
I'm pretty sure I'm singing what I always have.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Say so long to ICC profiles
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2015, 06:04:46 pm »

Likewise.

BTW Don, have you gotten over your devastation and tried using your newly acquired (as of a year or so ago now) spectro and software? Are you happy with the results? Happier than you were with canned profiles?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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donbga

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Re: Say so long to ICC profiles
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2015, 09:58:21 pm »

Mark,

I've been making my own ICC profiles for several years. My original post was made with sarcastic intent since I felt Ctein's statement was so egregiously ridiculous, at least if one's believes in current Color Management techniques for color printing.

At least Rodney seems to think so or so he wrote on TOP today. But why not last August?

The replies I've read in this thread are par for the course here on LULA. To bad no one wanted to regard the topic seriously when I initially brought it up. I guess I'm not expert enough to have any credibility, at least in this crowd.

Don Bryant
 
 
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Say so long to ICC profiles
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2015, 10:07:18 pm »

Mark,

I've been making my own ICC profiles for several years. My original post was made with sarcastic intent since I felt Ctein's statement was so egregiously ridiculous, at least if one's believes in current Color Management techniques for color printing.

At least Rodney seems to think so or so he wrote on TOP today. But why not last August?

The replies I've read in this thread are par for the course here on LULA. To bad no one wanted to regard the topic seriously when I initially brought it up. I guess I'm not expert enough to have any credibility, at least in this crowd.

Don Bryant
 
 

I must admit the sarcasm angle passed straight over my head.

As I reviewed the thread it strikes me that members were responding to your post, but not taking Ctein seriously.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: Say so long to ICC profiles
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2015, 10:43:00 pm »

I must admit the sarcasm angle passed straight over my head.
Me too.
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