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Author Topic: 5D or D200 for a photographer  (Read 14237 times)

Khurram

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #20 on: November 16, 2005, 11:46:20 pm »

I kind of going through the same type of agonizing of which switch to make.

for me it's a bit differernt - i;m finally going to make the difference from film to digital.

I've been shooting with a 1v HS and Elan 7N as a backup.

Shoot mainly landscape and weddings, with a lot invested in canon - 1vHS, Elan 7n, 16-35 2.8L, 70-200 f2.8L IS, 2 580EX, 1 420 EX, ST-E2 and had the 24-70 f2.8L, which i just sold a few weeks ago in anticipation of purchasing the 24-105 F4L.


I waited during the last 1 1/2 for a "affordable" full frame and was very pleased when i heard about the 5D.  Sounded just like what i was waiting for.  Then this Fall i went on a three week tour of arizona, utah, wyoming, shooting around 80 rolls of film.  based on the cost of film/processing and discussions with other photogrpahers in the USA that I met shooting with the 1DsII, D2X and the 5D (ran into someone in Page who had just had the camera for a week), I realized that now was the time to go digital.

After getting back home, i did some more research on the 5D and became very dissapointed - i thought it would be at least have been as weahter sealed as the EOS 3 was.  but even more importantly, i couldn't believe that canon released a camera that costs $4300CDN (btw, the price in canada has dropped all of $30 at one store), that did not have the same viewfidner exposure information as the 1 series cameras (the EOS 3 did have this feature).  Moreover, the camera also does not have dedicated FEL.  THe FEL feature was for me was the strongest feature of Canon's flash system.  I also shoot weddings, and for me the FEL reading, used with the FE compensation was a deadly accurate way of metering at weddings with my 1v.  This solves the problem of having black suits/tuxedos or white dresses throwing off the meter - and yes - i shoot almost every shot at a wedding using spot metering and the FEL, to ensure accurate exposure.

Let me qualify the statement of no FEL on the 5D.  with my 1v, i use custom function 4 set to "1", which activates AF with the AE lock button, to seperate AF operation from the shutter release.  THis allows me to pre-focus and wait for that right moment to take the photo.  Problem with non 1-series EOS cameras is that if you set custom functio 4 to "1", you CANNOT use FEL!!!!! Incredibly STUPID design, and very important feature missing on a camera $4300!!

Not being able to afford the EOS1dSII, my first reaction was that i ran into so many happy Nikon D2x users that i started considering that as an option, but having so much invested in canon, the cost of making such a switch (taking losses on lenses/flashes, and replacing with nikon lenses and flashes), would probaby be close to spending the extra money and getting a 1dsII.  

Then Nikon announced/leaked the D200. and since then i have again been toying of making the switch.  I could get two D200's for the cost of a EOS 5D.

Morevoer, i like the ultra wide options that nikon has.  I have heard good things about their metering and flash system, but am very comfortable with ETTL (Used to hate ATTL that preceded it), and for me the entire effectiveness of ETTL rests with FEL - which is not available to me with the 5D based on my shooting preferences.

The negative to me about nikon is their customer service.  I switched from Nikon to Canon around 15(??) years ago, when i bought a F801, which i had for 7 months (actually 3, coz nikon had it for four months for 4 different repair jobs - the first 3 days after buying the camera - discovered hot shoe didn't work, and then the camera would just shutdown).  anyways, after nikon on four separate occasion refused to exchange a brand new camera and insisted on repairing it, i switched to canon.  With canon, being a CPS member, i dropped a 80-200F2.8L lens at a base ballgame - entirely my fault, and canon gave me a loaner at no cost, coz they didn't have a replacement mount for the lens in stock.  so i am a little hesitant on wanting to take a chance on nikon customer service again.

Because of my negative nikon experience in the past, i decided to investigate gettinga 1dIIN - best compromise in my eyes between cropped sensor and full frame (1.3x sensor).   I don't need the 8.2fps, like the weather sealing and the fact that it operates and feels a lot like 1v HS.  most people call it strictly a photojournaltist/sports camera, not really suited for weddings or landscape - but then my 1v HS shot off 10FPS and i used it mainly for landscape and weddings (havnet shot sports in the last 4 years).  i figure my 16-35mm will get me down to around 21mm wide, and i've also looked at getting the sigma 10-22mm which works with full frame, and that would get me to just under 16mm wide as an ultra wide option (have read mixed reviews about this lens, so not sure yet about how viable an option it really would be).

Right now, before i commit either way i'm waiting for two things - selling my 1vHS and the release of the 24-105L before making up my mind.

One question i do have is how much of a resolution difference is there between the 1DIIN and the 5D??  What would be the largest print possible with the IDIIN??  How does that compare with the 5D, D200 and the D2X???

would appreciate some advice on difference in noise, dynamic range,  image quality between the 1DIIN, 5D, D2X and the D200, as well as how much a diff there is on how large of high quality prints are possible with these cameras.

If there was a signfiicant drop in price in the USA in canada for the 5D or the 1dIIN, i would probalby stay with canon, but i can;t see tha happening for a while.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2005, 11:50:39 pm by Khurram »
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Khurram

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2005, 12:07:36 am »

hmmm, there is a $500 rebate on the D2X..... more to consider
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LeifG

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2005, 03:01:46 am »

Sadly I am ot sure that Nikon service has improved. About 4 years ago I tried to contact Nikon by phone to get a camera repaired. I rang maybe 20 times over several weeks but no answer. So I went via a camera store, and after a long time was given a repair estimate by Nikon which I took to be a body repair and lens clean. After many months the items came back - with the body described as not repairable. They charged me a fortune to clean the lens. If I had known the estimate was for the lens clean only (half the cost of the new lens) I would have said no way, and taken it to a local repair shop. Other experiences suggest that Nikon are very slow and sometimes arrogant.

But they do produce nice kit ... esp. the D200 from the looks of things.

Leif
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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2005, 07:23:04 am »

Larkvi, I'm not a hundred percent sure that I could help you. There is the EOS flash bible at http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/ which has most of the information that you could need for starting up with EOS flash.

Maybe I need to clarify this. With film ETTL I worked fine, really well in fact. I never had a problem, treated it like the auto flash I'd started photography with and the exposure were spot on. With digital they decided to lock the flash exposure based on the focus point in partial metering which is why the flash metering sucked so badly.
Although one could lock the flash exposure and then recompose like Khurram does, I could never use FEL at a wedding, too much confusion and rather annoying for the  subject in my view.
Using CF-4/1 changes the flash metering from being a 'spot' meter linked to the focus point, to being center weighed average. This technically should solve the problem, it's much closer to auto flash, but I never managed to get focusing using the * button to the point that I could do it instinctively. If you can't shoot without having to think about it then you're in trouble!

(BTW Khurram, ETTL II flash as featured on the 5D works very differently than ETTL I, you may need FEL far, far less than you think, especially as you  can switch to center weighed flash metering via a CF)

Canon tried to ignore the problems of ETTL, the FAQ on the CPS site are interesting reading in that they say that you must shoot the canon way to get good exposures with ETTL which given the tight placement of the AF points and the time lapse in either changing focus point or using FEL, was a rather pathetic point of view.
I struggled with ETTL I for 6 weddings then like so many others, sold my canon flash guns and bought into Metz Auto flash, Auto flash which is technology from the '60's and still gave consistent, predibtable and accurate exposures.

Then Canon announced ETTL II with the 20D (I think). According to canon the new flash system was no longer tied to the focus point at all (not 100% true as in Av/Tvmode the fill is calculated based on the ambient which still is tied to the focus point), incorporated subject distance data into the equation and various other types of magic. They also gave the option of a CF which can change the flash from evaluative to center weighted flash metering.
I have to be honest in that I have no working experience with ETTL II save messing around with other people's cameras. However what I've seen so far seems to match what others have said. Namely, Evalutive is more useful for outdoor fill flash though you may need to apply positive or minus compensation to achieve the best fill effect. Evaluative does not let objects blow out so if you have one subject closer than another, the metering will not let the foreground subject blow out. If that foreground subject is wearing white then the cumulative effect will be underexposure over most of the frame. Therefore it has been suggested that for indoor work center weighed metering will be a better solution.

I'm hoping and praying that ETTL II center weighed metering acts like auto flash. I know how to control auto flash. If it does then I will be able to, finally, come back to reliable canon flash metering, auto flash has its own share of issues most importately no high sync.

It looks like I will be staying with canon for the 24-105L lens and the familiarity with the system. I still think that the Nikon is a better camera, and deal, in every other aspect, from my point of view.
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Khurram

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2005, 08:03:49 am »

Quote
Maybe I need to clarify this. With film ETTL I worked fine, really well in fact. I never had a problem, treated it like the auto flash I'd started photography with and the exposure were spot on. With digital they decided to lock the flash exposure based on the focus point in partial metering which is why the flash metering sucked so badly.
Although one could lock the flash exposure and then recompose like Khurram does, I could never use FEL at a wedding, too much confusion and rather annoying for the  subject in my view.
Using CF-4/1 changes the flash metering from being a 'spot' meter linked to the focus point, to being center weighed average. This technically should solve the problem, it's much closer to auto flash, but I never managed to get focusing using the * button to the point that I could do it instinctively. If you can't shoot without having to think about it then you're in trouble!

(BTW Khurram, ETTL II flash as featured on the 5D works very differently than ETTL I, you may need FEL far, far less than you think, especially as you  can switch to center weighed flash metering via a CF)

Canon tried to ignore the problems of ETTL, the FAQ on the CPS site are interesting reading in that they say that you must shoot the canon way to get good exposures with ETTL which given the tight placement of the AF points and the time lapse in either changing focus point or using FEL, was a rather pathetic point of view.
I struggled with ETTL I for 6 weddings then like so many others, sold my canon flash guns and bought into Metz Auto flash, Auto flash which is technology from the '60's and still gave consistent, predibtable and accurate exposures.

Then Canon announced ETTL II with the 20D (I think). According to canon the new flash system was no longer tied to the focus point at all (not 100% true as in Av/Tvmode the fill is calculated based on the ambient which still is tied to the focus point), incorporated subject distance data into the equation and various other types of magic. They also gave the option of a CF which can change the flash from evaluative to center weighted flash metering.
I have to be honest in that I have no working experience with ETTL II save messing around with other people's cameras. However what I've seen so far seems to match what others have said. Namely, Evalutive is more useful for outdoor fill flash though you may need to apply positive or minus compensation to achieve the best fill effect. Evaluative does not let objects blow out so if you have one subject closer than another, the metering will not let the foreground subject blow out. If that foreground subject is wearing white then the cumulative effect will be underexposure over most of the frame. Therefore it has been suggested that for indoor work center weighed metering will be a better solution.

I'm hoping and praying that ETTL II center weighed metering acts like auto flash. I know how to control auto flash. If it does then I will be able to, finally, come back to reliable canon flash metering, auto flash has its own share of issues most importately no high sync.

It looks like I will be staying with canon for the 24-105L lens and the familiarity with the system. I still think that the Nikon is a better camera, and deal, in every other aspect, from my point of view.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=51493\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]
Pom,
I know what you mean that FEL can be confusing at weddings.  but i try to let the client no  before hand that the first flash is just to get a reading.  makes candids more difficult though.  but after having one wedding almost totally screwed up, i gave up relying on the camera totally.  so now i shoot completely manual, using spot metering and FEL, will adjust for changes in ambient with my Aperture/shutter speed combo, and then use FEL with Flash exposure adjustments for the main subject.  I'm still kind of reluctunat using center weighted, bcoz often there is still a lot of black or white in the centre are.  I also pretty much have switched from using different focusing points to using the centre  point, unless, i'm shooting in AF servo mode (not very often - usually for dances), in which  case i select an AF point that will focus on the subject's face).

i pretty much rely on manual control for weddings - will this process work with digital?

For me using the "*" for focusing has become second nature, and always creates a problem when i am using my Elan 7N with flash

would also appreciate if you could let  me know what the differnces are in the maximum high quality print sizes that are possible with the 5D, 1dmkIIN, D2X and D200.
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jani

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« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2005, 01:31:37 pm »

I just found an old news post from an acquaintance of mine who's very happy with the Metz 54 MZ-3 with the M3 (E-TTL II) adapter.

He's using it with a 20D and 1D MkII.

According to his post, E-TTL doesn't work with indirect flash, supposedly because of a Canon-owned patent. That's why the sensor is in the reflector instead of being a "real" E-TTL, as pom correctly observes.

Urgh. It just had to be a silly patent, didn't it?
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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2005, 01:39:33 pm »

Jani, that's exactly the problem that made me sell the Metz, was not at all pleased and is another reason why I'm considering Nikon.

According to my usual pro store, the 24-105L won't be available again until mid December, i.e the same time as the D200 is released. Apparently the fault was caused by a small part inside the lens not having been coated and therefore reflecting in all it's polished metal glory, makes me shudder to think of.

I will still probably go for the Canon and buy a 580ex for when I need ETTL II but I can't pretend to be impressed with either their QC or Metz faking ETTL.

I wrote to Metz in Germany about the ETTL II issue with reflectors, they are apparently bringing out two handle mount flashes in December with full ETTL II capability even with diffusers, but when I asked about an update for the 54 line they said 'we told you to wait for December'. Not sure what that means but I'm not holding my breath.

Khurram, it might be worth you having a go with the 5D and flash shooting in Av and manual modes with the camera set to regular evaluative. Your spot metering, FEL trick may cause you more trouble than its worth with digital, especially as I no longer believe that it is necessary from my own limited experience and all that I have read. Try it out, see what you think. Personally I couldn't even countenance using FEL for wedding shooting, too slow for candid and split second shooting, confuses the heck out of everyone, and I believe would bother my subjects.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2005, 01:43:53 pm by pom »
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jani

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« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2005, 02:02:54 pm »

Quote
I wrote to Metz in Germany about the ETTL II issue with reflectors, they are apparently bringing out two handle mount flashes in December with full ETTL II capability even with diffusers, but when I asked about an update for the 54 line they said 'we told you to wait for December'. Not sure what that means but I'm not holding my breath.
That seems like a typical German response. While technically not quite rude, it's not wrapped in cotton like an American response would be. Just pretend that they were writing a bunch of stuff about how sorry they are for the problems, the delay and blahblah models with handle mount blahblah.  
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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2005, 02:15:16 pm »

Quote
That seems like a typical German response. While technically not quite rude, it's not wrapped in cotton like an American response would be. Just pretend that they were writing a bunch of stuff about how sorry they are for the problems, the delay and blahblah models with handle mount blahblah. 
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=51531\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

actually it was abrupt to the point of rudeness though I wouldn't be quick to be sure of that considering that my ability to transalate English phrases, pleasantly, into German is precisely nil. I had backed him into a corner by saying forget handle mount, I have an investment in two Metz 54's, are you doing something about it, to which he probably didn't have an accurate reply.
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BJL

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« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2005, 05:37:52 pm »

Quote
One question i do have is how much of a resolution difference is there between the 1DIIN and the 5D??  What would be the largest print possible with the IDIIN??  How does that compare with the 5D, D200 and the D2X???

would appreciate some advice on difference in noise, dynamic range,  image quality between the 1DIIN, 5D, D2X and the D200, as well as how much a diff there is on how large of high quality prints are possible with these cameras.
[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=51466\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

Phil Askey's review of the 5D at www.DPreview.com has some useful comparisons of the 5D, 1DII and D2X, and he indicates that the D200 review will compare to the 5D. One thing I like is his new use of various RAW conversions and various different tone curves and contrast settings for in-camera JPEG to assess resolution, dynamic range and such. The resolution results are often quite different than with default JPEG output, due to the different approaches of different cameras to sharpening and such in JPEG conversion. It is the most careful resolution/DR work I have seen so far in a review.

P. S. Thanks to Pom and all for one of the best, least dogmatic camera/system comparison discussions I have seen in a long time. I suppose this is what to expect from pros making decisions that involve real money.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2005, 05:38:35 pm by BJL »
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larkvi

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« Reply #30 on: November 17, 2005, 06:39:21 pm »

'Larkvi, I'm not a hundred percent sure that I could help you., etc.'

Actually, that was more or less the answer I was looking for, as I was really not clear on what exactly the problem was that necessitated my learning manual flash in the first place, but a photography instructor told me that to deal with fast-moving indoor situations I really needed to be able to use manual flash because the E-TTL system would screw up. As I had recalled reading (in a book written in the film age...) that automatic-exposure systems were common, I was not clear what to make of this, until you connected the problem specifically to the digital camera.

I have seen the flash document before, but never actually finished reading it. I will go back and actually get all the way through this time. Thanks.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2005, 06:39:52 pm by larkvi »
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Jonathan Wienke

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« Reply #31 on: November 17, 2005, 07:16:30 pm »

Quote
ETTL I is so utterly awful, especially for wedding work, that I consider it unuseable. According to canon you need to have the  focus point over a neutral toned subject for correct exposure in ETTL I.

There's a very simple workaround for E-TTL; read http://www.visual-vacations.com/Photograph..._ettl_flash.htm and your flash consistency will improve greatly.
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Ben Rubinstein

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« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2005, 07:54:24 am »

Isn't that the CF-4/1 that I mentioned earlier? As I said it would have solved my ETTL problems but I couldn't get focusing with the * button to become natural or subconscious.

Larkvi, manual flash would be an even bigger gamble on digital IMO for fast moving situations. The most important thing I believe is relevant to fast shooting, specifically event shooting where the variables are changing very fast, is to have the least amount of changing settings needed to take a shot.

What I mean is that for split second timing you need to be able to shoot on a subconscious level. With film that was easy. Shoot on Av or manual and let the flash do the rest, just adjust for black or white in the frame.
With digital not getting it perfect can result in blown out highlights or posterized/banded shadows with colour shifts in the facial tones, all bad things.
To shoot with ETTL in Av mode you need to apply exposure compensation for a B/W situation, and use FEL, change focus point, use a two button press system, or use FEC. With ETTL II it's slightly better, you can get away with EC and FEC.
With either of these methods you are doing several steps between seeing the potential photography and the shutter opening.

Therefore I prefer, with either Auto or ETTL II flash, to use a incident handmeter in advance for a ambient reading which I set in manual mode and can forget as long as the light remains. This reading will of course be correct for either black or white! The only variable I have left to change is the flash. Plus for white, minus for black and only one variable that needs changing when shooting fast. With the wheel on the 580ex this can be incredibly fast. The metz is slightly slower due to the tiny wheel that needs a press before and after the correction.

Using manual flash is a nightmare for fast moving situations in that not only are you making a guess based on your tested results of what the flash output really is (don't believe what the flash tells you), at each fstop, iso and zoom setting, but you are having to change the setting literally every time the subject moves even 1/2 a meter otherwise you could be screwed.
You are also seriously out of luck for any diffused or bounce flash where unmetered manual flash on the go is impossible. You are guesstimating distances where 1/2 a meter can make a lot of difference to whether you get the shot or not for close distance work.
I've also found with both the Metz and the Canon that although ETTL flash can turn the power really low for close up work, the manual settings do not go as low to the extent that shooting at iso 400 1/60 f5.6 (my usual settings for indoors), the flash will overexpose subjects with a <1m setting even at the lowest manual setting of 1/256 (on my metz, the canon doesn't go lower than 1/128). I have to use a diffuser with auto flash at that distances, e.g. at a tight reception or during the dancing. Apparently with ETTL II the flash can lower it's power to the extent of providing suitible fill flash for outdoor work with extremely fast lenses, even close up.
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