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Author Topic: 5D or D200 for a photographer  (Read 14239 times)

Ben Rubinstein

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« on: November 12, 2005, 06:18:28 pm »

WARNING!! Long story ahead!

I'm in between cameras at the moment. I sold my 1Ds about 5 days before the 5D became official, I'd believed the rumours and hence got a far better price than a week later! I've been surviving on the 10D in the meantime as I wait to buy my next camera, a I'm out of action due to an operation on my right foot until mid December, I've let the cash sit in the bank so as to get the best price on the 5D. To date waiting has paid off, the 5D has dropped in price by ~£600 (over $1000) here in the UK from when it first became available apparently due to slow sales.

I'm not looking to start a Canon/Nikon war, those who know me know that I'm not a troll.    When I first expressed interest in the 5D several respected members of this board forced me to be open minded and to consider the D2X as well. Dragged kicking and screaming I actually tried my best to be open minded and worked it out.
To say that modern pro level cameras have little between them in the way of differences would, I think, be an honest statement. Certainly the top Canon and Nikon cameras are both extremely fine picture making machines. Compared to pro cameras of 20 years ago, either camera would be better than the wildest Sci-Fi dreams of pros then (OK they are far heavier   ).
The main difference for me between the Nikon and the Canon was the Full Frame (35mm) sensor. Canon has no fast 'pro' normal zoom for the crop sensor cameras, the 16-35 is too short, the 17-40 also short and slow. This was the main reason I went FF with the 1Ds, I wanted the 24-70 focal length in a 'L' zoom. The Nikon however has the extremely good 17-55AFS which is both pro and fast but more importantly covers the required focal length. The 12-24 f4 would be available should I need super wide, and has had excellent reviews.
In the end and at the time the economics of changing my legacy lenses and flashes to Nikon outweighed the pro build advantages the D2X has over the 5D. I put in my order for the 5D. The initial reviews made me happy enough with my choice and I still had the money squirreled away.

Then Nikon announces the D200. In the meantime I've found out that my two Metz 54 MZ-3 flashes are not fully supported with ETTL II on the 5D. I need two new flashes. I use both TTL and auto flash and other than the Metz, no other such flash exists for canon save the horribly expensive, huge and heavy Quantam 5D.
But Nikon has an auto sensor in the SB-800.
Added to that, the D200 seems to be rather more 'camera' in it's build and features than the 5D. Weather Sealing, MLU switch, AI Servo switch, far better AF point spacing, built in grid, faster frame count, double battery life. If the AF is similar to the D2X then for low light it will beat the 5D and 1Ds.  Oh and did I mention that it will retail at list price of £1300 while the 5D still costs £2375 street. Yes it has less megapixels but the D2X gives the 1Ds mkII a run for it's money apparently and I don't print bigger than 18X12". I also don't shoot over iso 500 often and remember that I'm used to, and mentally benchmark by 1Ds with it's horrible noise so I'm not spoiled.

When I worked out the economics, I could sell my canon gear and the two Metz's, buy a D200, 17-55AFS, 70-200VR, 50 1.4, cable release, 2X SB-800 and still have enough money to buy a D70 as backup. That becomes a powerful argument, one camera and lenses with no working flashes vs two cameras with 2 flashes. Yes I have more DOF than I like but the fast prime as a portrait lens plus two f2.8 zooms should be good enough.

On the flip side, I know canon, I know nothing about Nikon, there would be a considerable learning curve. I would not get the Nikon until late December though I still have a 10D to keep me going. I lose a couple of megapixels (the 1Ds had all the resolution I needed) and I lose the better high iso noise that the 5D would have given me.

The 5D's price has since dropped in the UK (£1991 at Jessops) and will probably drop further when the D200 comes out. I don't think that it was a coincidence that the biggest price drop coincided with the announcment of pre-orders for the D200 at £1250. The 24-105L with its IS is probably the biggest thing holding me back to the canon camp, not for landscapes, I only shoot on a tripod, but for weddings which is where I earn my bread, that lens is extremely attractive. I have an 85 1.8 for shallow DOF stuff.

There is a lot of speculation as to whether the replacement for the 20D, in having to 'one-up' the D200, will be better features wise than the 5D in every way save FF, and whether or not that will push the mid-level FF DSLR into a niche market. That is not what interests me. I'm wondering if these two cameras are making other pros go 'Hmmmm'.........
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Quentin

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2005, 07:03:33 pm »

Or you can do what I have just done and buy a mint used Kodak 760C      Great camera.

Get the Nikon D200.  You'll get the flash compatability you need plus you'll save a lot of money.  I'd bet there will be nothing to chose between the 5D and D200 when the full reviews are in, the price difference being a plus of the DX sensor size.  Of course, I'm biased; I don't like following the crowd, and the crowd have flocked to Canon because they had a few months lead over Nikon in new product releases.  

Back to playing with my retro Kodak...

Quentin
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jdemott

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2005, 07:12:48 pm »

For someone like you who makes his living with his cameras, the decision involves a lot of intangibles, as well as some very practical considerations.  I'm sure there will be plenty of wedding photographers getting excellent results with both systems.  But which one works for you isn't something anyone else can answer.  I've used Nikon for a number of years so when I pick up another Nikon camera it feels familiar, while a Canon feels a little awkward.  If at all possible, you should find a dealer who will let you use both cameras outside the shop for a day or so and find out which one you can live with best.

On the practical side, you've obviously noticed the big price difference.  Perhaps the question you should be asking is whether it is better to have two D200s versus one 5D.  I would think the ability to have two lenses mounted at all times, plus have a true back-up capability would be a big positive factor in your line of work.

Good luck.
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John DeMott

Ben Rubinstein

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2005, 09:16:49 pm »

I did play with a 5D versus a D2X in the store for a couple of hours, shot them against each other, mainly for flash. The D2X has the fastest low light AF I have ever seen in my life!
The resolution was give or take the same as far as I noticed with a more film like feel to the Nikon pictures although the 5D had the lead (slight)for noise at iso 400 (I use 400 most of the time so I was trying to do a real world comparison, i.e. what mattered to me).
For flash the systems were give or take equal, I don't know how the Nikon flash system works so I can't say whether or not I even had the camera/flash on the right settings.
The D2X was extremely comfortable in my hand and although I prefer the QCD of the canon, the other ergonmics have to be handed to the Nikon (I used to own a 1Ds so I know what pro level canon ergonomics are) I also appreciated the setup and layout of the main controls, more dials, less buttons, far less having to use two fingers with your eye away from the viewfinder which I hated with the 1Ds. AI Servo lever and MLU were much appreciated though I prefer the mode dial of the 5D over button press, twiddle dial on the D2X.

As Jdemott says, for a pro the price difference is the difference between a compatible backup camera and that is a serious issue. With Canon I cannot in any way afford a FF digital backup and although I would be happy with a 10D for backup, the fact that I need a seperate set of focal lengths is a big problem. My 24-70 cannot be used on the 10D if my 5D were to break down mid job, it isn't wide enough. I rarely use a super WA and buying one just for the backup is expensive (I have a backup for the 24-70, I can't afford a backup for the WA zoom as well!) That is the reason I'm still using a film camera ready loaded for backup. It's the cheaper option. With the D200, since it also uses a crop sensor, a D70, though defficient, would share the lenses perfectly.

Maybe I didn't make it clear enough, I probably will stay with canon, the price difference is closing up rapidly and I know canon inside out, I also have the canon lenses and accessories which would be a pain to sell. However, I'm going to wait it out a while, maybe until I can use both and make my decision. The 24-105 IS lens may be the deciding factor.

At the moment I'm still seesawing backwards and forwards over this, being lain up at home after the operation with nothing to do but read reviews and opinions with the money burning a hole in my pocket doesn't help!
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David Anderson

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2005, 07:24:15 am »

Pom,
Sounds like you're making the most of your down time.
Not so long ago ( 4-6 weeks before the 5D was anounced ) I explored the option of changing from Canon back to Nikon as I was having lots of problems with sharpness from my 1DSII.
I thought I would get a Phase One P25 for my Blads for ad work and just use cheaper 35mm digital for functions/concerts and other lower paid work..
A couple of bodies, 2 flashes and 3 zooms....Save the money for the P25...
Nikon loaned me a D2X kit for a few days to try in my work situation.
Side by side with the Canon you could spend a lifetime working out which is better for what you need..
The new 5D and D200 make this harder still as the price for each is much lower then the D2X/1DSII setups and right up there with them for image quality in real world work.

In the end I stuck with Canon, here's why.
1. Canon CPS service is great, they spent lots of time making sure my sharpness issues were    fixed and I was happy with my camera.
All my lenses are now calibrated by CPS.
2. Nikon Autofocus IMO is not as good as Canon.
3. I think sooner or later Nikon must go to a full frame and then any lenses you have for the smaller chips will need to be replaced.
4. The High ISO performance of the Canon is better then Nikon.

I now use two 1DSII's and good prime lenses for everything, the P25 would of cost more and had me choosing between systems for each job..
better I think to have both feet in one camp.
Time over I might have had 2 or 3  5D's and more money for lenses..

Hope this helps,
David.
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BernardLanguillier

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2005, 07:56:19 am »

Hi Pom,

Glad to see that Nikon users comments are still torturing you... :-) Just kidding of course.

The 5D appears to be a very nice piece of equipment, and together with the 24-105 IS must be really cool for the work you do.

As a side comment, the yet un-tested 18-200 might be better than its price might suggest, and is actually as bright than the Canon lens over their common range.

If the 24-105 is your main factor for deciding in favour of the 5D, then I would probably wait until test results of the D200 + 18-200 combo are published.

Regards,
Bernard

Slough

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2005, 10:32:22 am »

As a Nikon user I would love to see you change to Canon, since there are so many Canon users who promote the brand in an almost messianic manner.

But ...

There's no doubt that Canon will soon replace the 20D with something better. So rather than change to the D200 - an excellent camera according to everyone and his dog - would not the D30 (for want of another name) do the business? Or does the D200 have something you need that is lacking in a Canon D20 class camera? From what you have said, I suspect you don't think that Canon have suitable glass for an APS sensor.

Of course you could hire a Nikon camera for the day and find out if it does the business? That might avert a potentially rash move, or alternatively convince you that the dark side is better.

It might also be worth your while to try out the 5D.

As an afterthought, in a year or two Nikon will introduce an upgrade to the D70, presumably using the D200 sensor, but with consumer grade build and price. So will have a cheaper back up with similar resolution.

Leif
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Ben Rubinstein

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2005, 01:07:44 pm »

Leif, the problem with the canon crop cameras and the main reason I went FF in the first place, is the lack of a fast normal zoom to compete with the 17-55AFS. If canon were to have had that lens then, maybe, the 30D might have been an option worth waiting for. That said it's doubtful that it will be anounced until PMA which is longer than I'm prepared to wait.

I'm not messianic about canon, far from it, the D2X is better, for me, than the 1Ds was. Of that I have no doubt. If I could have afforded to make the switch with a D2X in mind then the 5D wouldn't have touched the ground, probably.

It may be crazy to think of it this way but the 24-105L, for all its flaws, will probably be the one that purchases the 5D for me. I don't have the steadiest of hands and 11+ megapixels are murderous to your belief in your handholding technique! That and sheer 'comfort' level with what I'm used to...
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davaglo

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2005, 04:58:06 pm »

Somebody help me out please.

1. Canon CPS service is great, they spent lots of time making sure my sharpness issues were fixed and I was happy with my camera.
All my lenses are now calibrated by CPS.

I didn't know lenses could be calibrated. Could someone explain this to me.
Thanks
Jerry
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jrg

Ben Rubinstein

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2005, 06:14:45 am »

If a lens shows back or front focusing then assuming that the lens is under warranty, canon will calibrate the lens for that specific camera to show better focus accuracy.
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Frere Jacques

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2005, 08:14:18 am »

POM-

I have been going through the same exercise!!! I am current still shooting film (Nikon F100), but I do not have a lot invested in Nikon glass. A vendor switch at this point would not be too expensive. (And I shot an AE-1 for 10 years, so I have already switched once!) I am leaning Nikon, but we will see. DPReview just did an excellent review of the 5D. (http://www.dpreview.com/news/0511/05111201canon5dreview.asp) I am waiting for a similar on the D200 before I make the final decision. I am betting the reviews are going to show not too much difference between the D200 & the D2X -- at least not €3000 of difference!!

At the end of the day, though, both the 5D & D200 are going to produce fantastic images -- and that is all that really matters. Pick the one that fits your budget and your style of shooting. I really don't think you can wrong between the two!

Good luck & let us know which you choose!

-Jim


ps- I already own the Nikon 50 1.4 -- spectacular lens, especially teamed with Ilford Pan F 50!!!! I believe it would work very well on a digital body....
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bob mccarthy

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2005, 10:34:18 am »

Quote
WARNING!! Long story ahead!

Hi Bene, or was it beni? <G>


Then Nikon announces the D200. In the meantime I've found out that my two Metz 54 MZ-3 flashes are not fully supported with ETTL II on the 5D. I need two new flashes. I use both TTL and auto flash and other than the Metz, no other such flash exists for canon save the horribly expensive, huge and heavy Quantam 5D.
But Nikon has an auto sensor in the SB-800.


When I worked out the economics, I could sell my canon gear and the two Metz's, buy a D200, 17-55AFS, 70-200VR, 50 1.4, cable release, 2X SB-800 and still have enough money to buy a D70 as backup. That becomes a powerful argument, one camera and lenses with no working flashes vs two cameras with 2 flashes. Yes I have more DOF than I like but the fast prime as a portrait lens plus two f2.8 zooms should be good enough.


[a href=\"index.php?act=findpost&pid=51132\"][{POST_SNAPBACK}][/a]

A small point, but you only need one 800 to act as master. You can use the 600 as slaves and save some money.

Bob
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Ben Rubinstein

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2005, 12:18:07 pm »

I had intended the second flash as backup. My backup flash, at this point in time, needs auto flash, hence two sb-800's. The canon solution is to either wait until Metz gets around to updating it's system for ETTL II or swop between the 580ex and an auto only flash.
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jani

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2005, 02:06:06 pm »

Quote
I had intended the second flash as backup. My backup flash, at this point in time, needs auto flash, hence two sb-800's. The canon solution is to either wait until Metz gets around to updating it's system for ETTL II or swop between the 580ex and an auto only flash.
I'm a bit curious, though, as to exactly what features in ETTL II it is that you can't live without? Wouldn't the current ETTL I support be good enough?
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Jan

Ben Rubinstein

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2005, 06:39:22 am »

ETTL I is so utterly awful, especially for wedding work, that I consider it unuseable. According to canon you need to have the  focus point over a neutral toned subject for correct exposure in ETTL I. This mean that your subjects face must be big enough to cover the sensor with no black hair or tux included, that there is a sensor over the face whatever compostion you choose or screw up your composition (like that's likely with canon's philosophy of putting all the sensors in the middle), oh and for split second moments that you need to capture you have to choose a focus point and make sure it over something neutral and only then fire or do FEL by which time the moment is long gone.

On the epitath for ETTL I they will write 'mourned by none'.

My Metz flash units use some sort of sensor in the flash head itself to provide exposure confirmation or whatever. This means that eventhough it can do ETTL II, it cannot do it if there is any diffuser on the flash head. I use the Lightsphere constantly, and even when I don't I have Metz's own clip on diffuser, if only to act as an ND filter for when I'm working at very close quarter's and the flash can't shut itself down fast enough at wider apertures. This means that I am crippled with the Metz to only using Auto flash or not using a diffuser which I refuse to be limited by, especially for digital where it can make all the difference.

Why don't I just stick with a 580ex or auto flash? The main reason I want ETTL II is for outdoor fill flash. Auto flash is not that good with outdoors, there is too much light dissapation before the light bounces back to the sensor which can lead to unreliable results. Added to that, I could really do with Hi-Sync flash, 1/200 can be very limiting when you're trying to photography wide open even in duller conditions.

I use auto flash indoors, especially at the reception/dinner/dancing as I set up strobes bouncing off the ceiling to boost the ambient light and fill out the shadows in the back and corners of the room. Although I use radio slaves so the preflash doesn't bother me, the preflash does not see the output from the strobes and therefore cannot factor it into the equation. Applying minus FEC is'nt reliable enough. Auto flash however measures at the time fo exposure and isn't 'intelligent' enough to realise that some of the light is coming from elsewhere, it takes the whole amount of light bounced off the subject and when it has reached f4 or whatever, cuts off its output.

Make sense why I want a TTL flash with hi sync that can also do auto flash?
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jani

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #15 on: November 15, 2005, 07:06:21 am »

Quote
Make sense why I want a TTL flash with hi sync that can also do auto flash?
Yes, thanks for explaining it.

I'll consider myself lucky that I don't make a living off my photography, and that I can say just "oh, well, that didn't work out" and toss the bad photo.
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Jan

Ben Rubinstein

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2005, 10:56:00 am »

You can say that again! digital really taught me to make sure that my exposures are within half a stop of perfect, every frame, every time. The advantage of course is far faster post processing!
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RobertJ

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2005, 05:43:04 pm »

Pom, I'm in the same situation.  I'm sitting on my 20D and using it for all my current work because it gets the job done, but I'd like something more.  

There's been lots of options popping up, from Canon, then Nikon, and soon, I feel Canon will bring out a "30D" or something similar once again.  

Having options is a good thing, but it's also frustrating.   I'm seriously looking into medium format digital, at least, *used* medium format digital.  A few weeks ago, I saw an excellent P25 sell for $12k on ebay.  Not bad, but that must also include a whole other camera system with new lenses and accessories, etc.  Talk about frustrating.  
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John Camp

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2005, 01:22:07 pm »

Full disclosure: I'm a Nikon user, although I've played with my son's 1DsM1 and I think it takes marvellous pictures.

However, since most of your photography is very practical -- it's a business -- I think you'd do well to focus on costs. If the D200 is "good enough" for your purposes, then that would be critical, because the costs are so much lower. Of course, it absolutely must be "good enough," or there's no point.

In the Nikon system, I expect that you could cover everything you need to do for weddings with 2  lenses -- the 12-24 and the 24-120. I find them both to be handy, light and actually quite good. That would give you solid coverage (in 35mm FF terms) from 18 to 180.

But it seems to me (and I confess, everything I know about wedding photography I learned by going to a couple weddings where a photographer working -- that is, I know nothing) that your flash system would be critical. My personal feeling is that the SB800 might be the best on-camera flash system there is, period, especially in a situation which requires continuous adjustments in range, where lighting changes quickly and drastically, and where you may be changing lenses. You really do want a system where the flash talks easily to the lens...Nikon has that nailed.

JC
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larkvi

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5D or D200 for a photographer
« Reply #19 on: November 16, 2005, 07:39:28 pm »

OT, but...

Pom-

While you are stuck at home, perhaps I can convince you to start a new thread with advice on the kind of indoor/flash situations you deal with constantly? A few friends of mine have asked me to take photographs at their MA/PhD commencements, which I imagine to be very similar to wedding photography, and I must say I have no idea where to begin figuring out the finer details. Can you suggest good titles/resources for getting a basic handle on this kind of work?

I must admit that I am especially leery about telling them yes, as my hobby extends primarily to natural subjects; I have tried little portraiture, making their request especially daunting, as I would not want (from a personal perspective) to give them bad work (though I would settle for middling  ).
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