Topic: Digital view camera experience Sivlestri Linhof Horseman (Read 7979 times)

Lorenzo Pierucci · « **on:** August 27, 2014, 10:35:44 pm »

Hi everybody,

im seeking (again) for some experience from some architectural interior photographer that use tech cam. I ve used my TOYO view / leaf / rodesnstock 55 for a year now and i have to say I'm really pleased of the result compared my D800. So i decided that finally i should upgrade the camera. The Toyo 45G is is a whole heavy backpack stuffed of metal and not exactly stable whit my a DB attached ( scary... ).
I have to flight the whole thing to Bali and Hong Kong and was not fun ( especially explain to Indonesian clearance what a digital view camera is.......

).

So I'm looking now at a smaller compact system as I'm Italian my heart push me to the Silvestri, but as I'm a stitcher i noticed that the italians does not have rear shift. As i using a the Sironar 55, stitch allow me to zoom out and is like having a zoom lens ( highly recommended for who is the beginning and in "low" budget, ICC correction is your friend ).

I saw some good second hand Linhof 679 which seems to be a great over all camera ( that i will use also for studio replacing the TOYO) but i will like to know if anyone had some experience with that especially in location as is a proper view camera. The Techno seems to be available only new ( $$$ ) and not rear shift.

On the other hands there is the Horseman WD and the Toyo 23 D ( this one seems no one use ).

So far i feel the Lihof is the best choice but any other suggestion, comment ( or insult as i always ask questions... ) are always more then welcome.

Thanks for reading this.

torger · « **Reply #1 on:** August 28, 2014, 02:53:36 am »

View cameras are not so popular among architectural photographers. Most are using pancake cameras like the Alpa or Arca-Swiss RM3Di. The big advantage of the pancake cameras is that you can focus without the ground glass, using a laser distance meter and setting on a high precision focusing ring instead. The disadvantage is high cost of the lens mounts. Focusing view cameras with center-filter wides in dark indoor scenarios is not easy, but with proper technique its possible, and if you shoot tethered or use a Leaf back you can check sharpness to make really sure you're on target.

The Techno has +/-20mm in geared rise/fall on the rear, and fixed +/-17mm sideways shift on the sliding back. The fixed sideways shift positions are designed for being used together with the standard ground glass with 49x37mm (the new bright ground glass does not cover the side positions, you can stitch "in the blind" though of course). You can get sliding back stitch options from Kapture Group too, and maybe Silvestri as well. I use a Techno myself.

Linhof 679cs is a heavy camera, but if you can carry it it should work, it takes wide angles too. I haven't used it myself.

The Silvestri is a cost effective solution, they have pancake and pancake + view camera. Haven't used it myself though. The Bicam III is said to have +/-15mm rise/fall and left/right shift, not sure if it's the lens or the back that moves though.

DanielStone · « **Reply #2 on:** August 28, 2014, 03:05:44 am »

Arca Swiss(M-Line/M-Line2, or 6X9 Monolith)
Linhof: m679, m679cs
Cambo: Ultima 23
Rollei: X-Act, X-Act2 (I'd recommend talking with Eric Hiss, the USA Rolleiflex rep about this system)

All are pretty dang solid cameras, and allow for fully geared movements. All can have digital backs attached to them, having sliding backs available from either the factory or 3rd party vendors(such as Kapture Group).

It really just boils down to which one feels "good in the hands" and allows you to work as uninhibited/freely as possible. Equipment that will not get in the way of you working efficiently and in a time-sensitive manner. I'm sure that no one likes fumbling with a camera, and wasting time on a shot that doesn't need to be wasted!

cheers,
Dan

Lorenzo Pierucci · « **Reply #3 on:** August 28, 2014, 04:10:13 am »

Hi guys,

Thanks so much for the feed back ( also to who private message me... ).

Knowing that the Linhof is a heavy camera is a good start point. It does come down to what i feel good to work with but to me now is mostly to what i can carry over and set up faster. The Toyo work well for me but is really a rock.
Pancake cameras are what i need but I'm not sure i can keep use my Rodenstock 55 on it. A lens can be "adapted" or i need to buy the whole thing again?

The cambo ultima 23 seem a cheaper way of the Linhof... and i can use Copal 0 lenses. I look into it.

But a good pancake seems the way to go, especially as i can found them second hand with the lens. Problem is few have rear movement, essential for stitch.

Im looking at the second hand market, this one seem perfect:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/351144242370?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

But i read that the Horseman are now discontinued. I will still be able to find a mamiya plate for it?

So many questions.... but thanks again for the help !

torger · « **Reply #4 on:** August 28, 2014, 04:33:37 am »

My thinking was that almost every pancake camera has rear movement. Some models lack sideways movement on the rear though.

Yes you can adapt lenses, I'd guess that all pancake cam manufacturers have such a service. Note that lens mounts can be really expensive, like €800 or so, much more expensive than view camera lens boards. I don't know what it costs to adapt a lens, probably a bit more than the lens mount alone of course.

Cambo and Silvestri don't have high precision focusing rings, but on Cambo Alpa's rings can be used, not sure with Silvestri. A pancake camera without high precision focusing (so you'd have to focus on the ground glass anyway) is like losing one of its major features, and then I would prefer a view camera. Most of the legacy pancake cameras don't have high precision focusing rings, and only Arca-Swiss RM3Di has it out of the box (although their focus precision is arguably overkill and a bit cumbersome to use unlike Alpa).

Lorenzo Pierucci · « **Reply #5 on:** August 28, 2014, 05:59:01 am »

Thanks again!

Precise focus ( even if I'm sure is critical fro a 60 MP back ) is something that i can pass on for save some good money to buy another lens ( ex 35 mm ).

Im looking at the old Cambo Wide: what the heck they was thinking when they decide that the lens have tho shift and not the back?

tom_l · « **Reply #6 on:** August 28, 2014, 09:25:31 am »

I think they are all geared except the Horseman.

I use the Silvestri Bicam III in techcam mode.(without bellow an sliding back)
It has both movements on the back.
If you are an frequent stitcher, you can add a sliding back (i think the current model has 3 positions, left, center, right)

If you need tilt-swing, you will need a bellow.(it is similar to the Linhof Techno too) But you have to choose if you want lenses to be mounted for the technical set up (shift only, with helicoidal ring) or bellow set up (Tilt, Swing, lateral shift too; a simple lens board, you focus with the bellow)
They don't have a large dealer network outside of Europe, but they have demo/pre-owned material on their website too. There was an upgrade possiblity when i changed the Bicam II for the III.

The Linhof Techno is a wonderfull tool too, and worth a look IMHO.

Tom

Lorenzo Pierucci · « **Reply #7 on:** August 28, 2014, 10:33:07 am »

Quote from: tom_l on August 28, 2014, 09:25:31 am

I use the Silvestri Bicam III in techcam mode.(without bellow an sliding back)
It has both movements on the back.
If you are an frequent stitcher, you can add a sliding back (i think the current model has 3 positions, left, center, right)

This make me really happy Tom, i was wish the Italian was up to the task coz i was rooting for that one. Problem is that mostly are only new... but might be worth the investment.

On the other hand u said the horseman is not that good. Can i ask why? ( was to cheap to be good...

)

Thanks again for the info, I'm checking the Silvestri website and counting down price. U also said that it as both movement on the back. Is so i don't really need a sliding back. With my Toyo and live view i shift the back around to stitch. The only difference is that 500 USD of sliding plate vs a 100 USD one.

Paul2660 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 28, 2014, 10:40:48 am »

If you are not in a rush, I would also shop this site's used equipment and www.getdpi.com

The Horseman, featured on ebay, has the older 24mm lens, and on your 60MP back, it's not a great solution. Shifts will not be that great and it sound like you are after shifts.

As for weight, both Cambo and Arca make products that would be perfect for your needs, the Arca Factum is one to look at. Acra in the rm3di, offers you in standard setup, 15mm shift R&L and 30mm rise and 20mm fall, you can always rotate the rm3di 90 degrees and use rise/fall as shift. I often do that.

Both companies tend to make significant announcements at Photokina so you might see more used gear coming on the market.

Paul

Lorenzo Pierucci · « **Reply #9 on:** August 28, 2014, 10:49:14 am »

Quote from: Paul2660 on August 28, 2014, 10:40:48 am

The Horseman, featured on ebay, has the older 24mm lens, and on your 60MP back, it's not a great solution.

Err... i earlier said that is critical for a 60 MP back. Not "mine" 60 MP back... i own a obsolete 22. Which is good as i can use lens as a old digitar Rodenstock 90 mm with really good result. But i agree is not a good place to invest money as probably i will upgrade to a P40 or aptus 65 in the near future.

I will check the second hand market on getdpi, thats another great call. Thanks

Lorenzo

JoeKitchen · « **Reply #10 on:** August 28, 2014, 11:56:19 am »

What kind of work do you do in studio and what focal lengths do you work with?

Going back to the pancake cameras, they are great! I use an Arca Swiss RM3Di and have no complaints, for architecture and landscape. Small, light and portable; very easy and fast to set up, very stable. The focusing ring on my Arca is super precise.

But for lenses longer then 90mm, it becomes impractical for a few reasons.

The movements provided on the pancake cameras really lend themselves to architecture and normally have a very large amount of movement down (shifting your view up). Movements up and side to side are less generous, but those are not really needed for architecture or landscape. For furniture though, where you are using a long lens and want amble room to shift, the pancake cameras just won't give you that. (The few time I have shot furniture with my Arca, I had to turn it up side down to get enough up shift; kind of annoying to work that way).

Also, the Arca pancake camera only has fine focusing, no course focus. For shooting macro work, this is very annoying, since you need to move the lens much further to focus on closer objects. It can seem like you are spinning that ring forever.

All the pancake cameras move the lens when you focus. This becomes annoying with, again, macro photography since you are moving the lens closer to the object you are focusing on, thus ever increasing the distance you need to have the lens from the back to be in focus. (You are kind of working against yourself.) Also, all pancake cameras will have a limit to how far you can get the lens from the sensor (sort of), thus limiting how close you can get to your subject.

For the longer lenses, all tilts and swings will be more like base tilts and swings, not axil. Also, (I know for the Arca RM3Di) the tilting mechanism is not made to handle front heavy lenses or lenses that need to sit far from the sensor.

If any of these are a problem for you, I would suggest getting a camera with bellows. My girlfriend, who is a food photographer, and I are thinking about sharing the cost of an Arca Swiss M Line 2 for the reasons stated above and keeping it as a studio camera.

tom_l · « **Reply #11 on:** August 28, 2014, 12:16:24 pm »

Quote from: Lorenzo Pierucci on August 28, 2014, 10:33:07 am

On the other hand u said the horseman is not that good. Can i ask why? ( was to cheap to be good... )

Thanks again for the info, I'm checking the Silvestri website and counting down price. U also said that it as both movement on the back. Is so i don't really need a sliding back. With my Toyo and live view i shift the back around to stitch. The only difference is that 500 USD of sliding plate vs a 100 USD one.

Nothing wrong with the Horseman, it was very popular a few years ago, they never updated it since SWD II. the other manufacturers updated a few features here and there. Maybe someone else can say something about the Horseman.

I wouldn't buy a tech cam without testing it first. If you do tabletop or close up stuff in studio, a bellow camera may be the way to go instead of a rigid tech cam.

If you buy used, i could be wrong, but it seems to me the Cambo, Silvestri, Horseman can be found 50% off new, their sometimes considered less "premium" than Alpa, Arca or Sinar. But accessories aren't that expensive and they get the job done.

Lorenzo Pierucci · « **Reply #12 on:** August 28, 2014, 12:38:23 pm »

Joe thanks for share your experience. Im considering to get a camera just for the on location shooting, if i need to shoot table top or macro, well i will still go for my old Toyo view, is a long process anyhow so lose a bit of time focusing and heavy weight is not a big deal. Is just when it come go out that the big case of the 4x5 is a real pain.

Tom, got what u mean. And I'm totally on the line of "get the job done", as long i can use the right lens and the right movements. Another thing is that i live in Taiwan, here even Mamiya does not have assistance ( just representative that whatever problem my system had the solution was Upgrade ). So run test are not really possible... But i will go Japan soon, maybe there i can give some system a try.

In the meantime i m reading all the user manual of all the system suggested so far.

Lorenzo Pierucci · « **Reply #13 on:** August 28, 2014, 01:18:21 pm »

Anyone have tried those DAYI Chinas camera? Them are freaking cheap and can be used with normal lens.... must be something wrong somewhere....

Paul2660 · « **Reply #14 on:** August 28, 2014, 02:26:37 pm »

On the rm3di, I agree with Joe macro is very practical due to the amount of turning on the Arca Helical that has to happen to get the lens/subject distance right. Not as big an issue with Cambo.

However I don't see lenses past 90mm being non-practical. I use the 105mm Rod (very small lens, with a lot of rings) and the newer 120mm Schneider all the time on my rm3di, really with no problems. I am not using them for macro work, just landscape work. The 105 and 120 have huge image circles and really allow great amounts of shifting.

The rm3di, by default only allows the 15mm or shift, but simply rotate it 90 degrees and your rise fall now become shift. I use this configuration all the time with my 60XL, 105Rod and 120mm. The wides will hit too much crosstalk past 15mm unleuss you have ea 32mm Rod or 40mm Rod which can usually make it out to 18mm.

The rm3di should by design have no problems with tilt on the 32mm Rod or 28 or 23mm Rod's. These are the only real front heavy tech lenses I can think of. The 32 by is the most front heavy.

I generally use my 40 and 60 with a Lee wide angle hood and a 105mm CLPL with 1 filter. This does add a bit of weight to the front, but my rm3di has no problems holding the weight during up or down tilts. Arca can adjust the tilt wheel so that it had more pressure, thus won't allow movement under load. The 28mm Rod is the heaviest lens I use and was the first lens I purchased for the tech camera and it has not problems with tilt either.

Another solution for table top that is very popular is the Arca M2. Not as easy to find these used however.

Paul

JoeKitchen · « **Reply #15 on:** August 28, 2014, 03:08:36 pm »

Just to reply to Paul.

The Arca RM3Di would work perfectly fine if you tilted the head it 90 degrees to get more shift. The question just becomes how stable is your tripod since the center of gravity of the camera is no longer over/near the center of the tripod.

But even so, for furniture, where you may need a good deal of shift and rise, the RM3Di does not give you that. That, taken with the very large image circles of the longer Rodenstocks that you may want to take full advantage of, I think is not the best solution.

Insofar as front heavy, I really meant lenses that are mounted to sit a good deal away from the camera and are heavy, like with the Rod 90mm. I find, with that lens, I have to be very conscience of any tilt I may use, since if I do use tilt, the weight of the lens could torque where the tilt pivots and tilt it some more with out me knowing it. At 0 tilt though, the mechanism is notch fairly well and does not pivot by accident. With the Rod 105 and SK 120, it probably is not as much of a problem since they are much lighter.

Paul2660 · « **Reply #16 on:** August 28, 2014, 03:33:48 pm »

Joe:

You bring up a good point on stability. You are totally correct that when rotated, on the Acra L bracket, the rm3di is not as stable, and I in fact carry a minicell foam block that I use to place between the edge of the camera and the bottom the L bracket. When in this position, I find you have to be much more careful when shifting and you have to remember to take a bit more time to make sure no motion from your hands may be effecting the shot. It's a bit more delicate for sure.

The rl3di I believe that is the current name, is the bigger version of the rm3di and has more shift (20mm) or maybe more.

One of my biggest issues with the rm3di was the 15mm limitation on shifts. Would love to see a follow on with more shift.

Paul

JoeKitchen · « **Reply #17 on:** August 28, 2014, 03:47:21 pm »

Forgot about the RL3Di, which has more shift and can be used to shoot 4x5 film

Someone on this forum uses it, although I forget who.

Chris Barrett · « **Reply #18 on:** August 28, 2014, 11:02:59 pm »

It's funny, I often find that the with longer lenses, I'm applying greater movements. So, I typically use the 35, 43, 55 & 70 on the Rm3d and then the 90, 135 & 180 on the M2. The M2 has 35mm of movement in every direction and always feels like the better choice for longer focal lengths.

-CB

torger · « **Reply #19 on:** August 29, 2014, 04:22:30 am »

Quote from: Lorenzo Pierucci on August 28, 2014, 01:18:21 pm

Anyone have tried those DAYI Chinas camera? Them are freaking cheap and can be used with normal lens.... must be something wrong somewhere....

Manufacturing in China is much cheaper than for the Alpa, Linhof, Cambo, Arca-Swiss which are all made in Europe. However it's not only the workforce, the chinese manufactures don't have the same quality standards either, you simply don't get as good precision.

The Fotoman cameras I've heard is quite okay (the Dmax body maybe would suit you?) although you can't really trust the scale on the focusing ring. Hopefully parallelism is good though. I don't think you have ground glass on that, and as you can't trust he focusing ring you'll be focusing blind (trial error tethered). I've heard people using shim tape to adjust and get a better match with the focusing ring though so it gets usable. You could probably fix parallelism issues if any with shim tape too. If there's play in the parts then there's trouble though (play in a focusing ring is a pain, play in shift mechanism is a disaster for parallelism). I haven't personally laid my hands on a Fotoman camera so I don't know. It would be interesting to try, maybe they're not too bad. One need to keep in mind that many in the business have a reason to spread FUD about those cheap chinese cameras.

Of course, with a 22-39 megapixel back, f/11 - f/16 apertures and relaxed relation to pixel peeping you're much more likely to be pleased than if you're a IQ180 owner and really like to pixel peep corners and shoot at f/8.

Author Topic: Digital view camera experience Sivlestri Linhof Horseman (Read 7979 times)