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Author Topic: Orange ink in HP Z3100  (Read 1653 times)

Mike Sellers

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Orange ink in HP Z3100
« on: August 22, 2014, 09:06:49 PM »

If it were possible to substitute orange ink with this printers ink lineup which color would orange replace? Could you still use the built in spectro for profiling with orange in the lineup?
Mike
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arobinson7547

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Re: Orange ink in HP Z3100
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2014, 03:31:43 AM »

Red and Yes.
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Orange ink in HP Z3100
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2014, 05:34:23 AM »

The question is so cryptic that I did read it 10 times and still do not get it.



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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
April 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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Mike Sellers

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Re: Orange ink in HP Z3100
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2014, 08:20:03 AM »

Sorry Ernst it was late and I was in a hurry,
 I found a supplier -Materials Reprographx.com - that offers orange ink as an option and I was wondering how that would affect the printer when used. If you substitute orange for red what improvements if any would there be in colors printed? Since it has green ink already wouldn`t the added orange make it a "hi-fi" inkset? What would be the advantage?
Mike
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Orange ink in HP Z3100
« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2014, 04:36:56 PM »

You have already an inkset with cMmY + Red (orange/warm red) + Green (mintgreen) + Blue (violet) hues. I would call that more than HiFi. And if it has to become similar to the Z3200 with the heavier Red ink then I fear the ink loads of the other inks have to be made heavier. I have a strong suspicion that after complaints about the Z3100 gamut (more shifted to the lighter colors than the Epson gamut had at that time) HP decided to give the Z3200 a gamut that favored the darker colors more. I wonder whether that can be achieved with the calibration reference of the Z3100 unchanged.


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Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
April 2014, 600+ inkjet media white spectral plots.
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Mike Sellers

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Re: Orange ink in HP Z3100
« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2014, 08:47:10 PM »

So you guys wouldn`t put orange in the HP Z printers then?
Mike
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Mike Sellers

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Re: Orange ink in HP Z3100
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2014, 07:40:04 AM »

Makes me wonder why Epson added orange to the ink lineup for the 9900?
Mike
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Mike Sellers

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Re: Orange ink in HP Z3100
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2014, 03:31:16 PM »

Does anyone know if the on board spectro can operate properly if orange is substituted for red? It will linerise and make profiles properly?
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deanwork

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Re: Orange ink in HP Z3100
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2014, 06:37:51 PM »

I seriously doubt it. My concern is that you would end up with less than an acceptable red gamut even if I did linearize decently. You have a good yellow in the Z and combined with that red channel I really don't see why you couldn't achieve any orange you might need.

The HP longevity for color is something like 3x the permanence of Epson Ultrachrome. They could have made a more robust red and magenta pigment but would have sacrificed that longevity with is something they really worked on. Even with the Z3100 I've never struggled with the need for more red, yellow, or magenta saturation.

If one needs a printer for super intense hues for pantone matching etc. I don't think the Z is the best printer for that purpose in the first place.

john


Does anyone know if the on board spectro can operate properly if orange is substituted for red? It will linerise and make profiles properly?
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MHMG

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Re: Orange ink in HP Z3100
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2014, 07:13:39 AM »


The HP longevity for color is something like 3x the permanence of Epson Ultrachrome.

And more importantly, the HP pigment set remains very closely color balanced as fading progresses. When fading does eventually occur, the image remains more natural looking, getting a little lighter and losing some contrast, but still retaining plausible tone and color. Canon's set is less well balanced, and Epson's Ultrachrome set(s) much less so because the Ultracrhome yellow which is common to all the Epson pigmented sets is a seriously weak link. It would be good to have an alternative yellow to the current Epson UC yellow. I feel strongly enough about it, that I will soon be dedicating my Epson 3880 to a hybrid ink experiment.... substituting the UC yellow for HP's yellow pigment using a third party refillable ink cartridge filled with HP's yellow ink.  With a better yellow like HP achieved, the Epson UC ink sets would indeed be on a par with HP regarding longevity performance. The UC yellow is the problem.

Canon's LUCIA EX set is harder to characterize on longevity, but land's closer to HP in overall light fastness than Epson, the green ink being the weakest and the yellow ink being second weakest, but the green doesn't get used for skin tones or low chroma colors so overall color balance remains superior to Epson as fading progresses. Moreover, relevant to this thread is the fact that what Canon calls "red" is actually orange (with a hue angle of about 45 degrees, i.e. ideal for replacement of yellow and magenta when making skin tones) so skin tone fading performance is improved as well (though not as good as HP's performance) because the Canon red (aka orange) is more lightfast than the Canon yellow ink. As others have noted, I suspect Hp's "red" ink is more orange than red as well, but I can't confirm since I don't currently have an Hp Z printer in my lab. Easy to tell for sure if the printer calibration target lays down separate channels of ink.

cheers,
Mark
http://www.aardenburg-imaging.com
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deanwork

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Re: Orange ink in HP Z3100
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2014, 12:41:34 PM »

Great and useful description. I didn't realize that the Epson magenta was that good.

When you print the nozzle pattern for the Z3100 the red is an orange-red, so in use the magenta channels play a role in reds.

With the Z3200 you are seeing a little more robust red as that was the only ink that was changed.

I didn't realize you could mix thermal and piezo inks like that. One of the things that Ernst pointed out about the Hp Z series is that different dot sizes are used for different hues, maybe that wouldn't matter when using it in a piezo printer. What I would worry about is clogging since the inks are not being heated by the heads.

john

john

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MHMG

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Re: Orange ink in HP Z3100
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2014, 04:36:59 PM »

Great and useful description. I didn't realize that the Epson magenta was that good.

I didn't realize you could mix thermal and piezo inks like that. One of the things that Ernst pointed out about the Hp Z series is that different dot sizes are used for different hues, maybe that wouldn't matter when using it in a piezo printer. What I would worry about is clogging since the inks are not being heated by the heads.

john


Using an ink formulated for thermal inkjet heads in a piezo head has a decent chance of success, but reliability may indeed be an issue and spiking the ink with a little more glycol might be needed, for example. I believe Paul Roark has successfully implemented HP gray pigments in an Epson printer, and I seem to recall it was pretty straight-forward. Paul does post on LULA, so maybe he might be able to add some more thoughts on this subject. Anyway, I think I've got a shot at it with the single yellow substitution.  On the other hand, it should be noted that using an ink formulated for piezo ink jets would lead to immediate head failures in a thermal print head technology as used in Canon and HP printers. So, no one should try to put Epson vivid magenta, for example into an HP machine ;D it's not a commutable exercise by any means.

best,
Mark
« Last Edit: August 30, 2014, 04:39:00 PM by MHMG »
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John Nollendorfs

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Re: Orange ink in HP Z3100
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2014, 11:05:19 AM »

Mark:
When I was last in the ink business, I seem to remember that my ink formulator said that the thermal inks were less viscous than Epson inks. The piezzo print head seems to handle "mis-formuation" much better than the thermal print heads. Also, I believe Paul was diluting the inks using a "base" formulated for the Epsons.

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