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janus

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Snafus in Digital Zone system article
« on: August 20, 2014, 07:03:27 am »

thanks for the article; but in order to read it well, are you aware of a few snafus?

figure 6&7 only shows the histogram, not the actual photo

figure 14 is totally blank


Thanks

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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: Snafus in Digital Zone system article
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2014, 09:59:28 am »

Look closely at figure 14 again. It is not totally blank, just very "high key."
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Misirlou

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Re: Snafus in Digital Zone system article
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2014, 11:29:22 am »

Web browsers can do evil things to images. There's another thread somewhere here about how to set up a truly color managed browser, and the bottom line is that it only works in a small set of cases.

On the uncalibrated machine I'm using at the moment, I can see all the image features mentioned in the article about that high key image. Might actually be worse on a color managed system.
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Snafus in Digital Zone system article
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2014, 11:13:45 pm »

Quote
Rule #2: HISTOGRAMS NEVER LIE! A histogram is a graphic depiction of the actual scene, based upon actual captured data. It is immune to interpretation

This statement is not correct when referred to histograms for raw images from cameras. The histogram you get is from the rendered jpegs, which is influenced by color space and other settings such as contras and "picture controls" or whatever they are called.

deejjjaaaa

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Re: Snafus in Digital Zone system article
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2014, 12:25:10 am »

This statement is not correct when referred to histograms for raw images from cameras. The histogram you get is from the rendered jpegs, which is influenced by color space and other settings such as contras and "picture controls" or whatever they are called.
may be the author uses ML firmware available for some Canons and enjoys the raw histogram and thinks that everybody else is graced by the same  ::)
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Snafus in Digital Zone system article
« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2014, 01:47:08 am »

may be the author uses ML firmware available for some Canons and enjoys the raw histogram and thinks that everybody else is graced by the same  ::)

Maybe that's the case  :) . Other thing I noticed in the article, is that the histograms (which appear to be from Photoshop) have the triangle warning in the upper right, indicating that they are not accurate to the latest versions of the images.

langier

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Re: Snafus in Digital Zone system article
« Reply #6 on: August 21, 2014, 09:12:38 am »

Overall, though, there's a lot of good and relevent info this article despite the glyches. It is a confirmation of what I've learned in this mellinium and now what teach my students, especially regarding histogram info.

IMO, forget a hand-held light meter most of the time (though I still use my flash meter for setting up my lighting!) A histogram on a properly set-up camera gives me better info and takes in all the idiosyncrasies of filters, lighting, color temperature, lens transmissions and every other little quark of the system. Getting an accurate and useful reading with a hand-held meter today that factors this all in just isn't worth the effort.
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knickerhawk

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Re: Snafus in Digital Zone system article
« Reply #7 on: August 21, 2014, 09:56:03 am »

Statements like the following are unfortunate:

The histogram is constructed with the shadows on the left and the highlights on the right. The height of the "Peaks" in the histogram show the intensity of individual points in the tonal range. A good histogram starts just inside the left upright, and ends just before the right. When you have a good histogram, that's all you can ask for. All of your information is there.

To begin with, the height of the peaks has nothing to do with "intensity" of the associated tone. The description of a "good histogram" is also potentially misleading in that it seems to imply that a "good" image should always generate shadow data in the histogram that reaches as close to the left as possible.  Given this site's association with the concept of ETTR, I would have thought that the author would have delved more deeply into the real meaning of optimal digital exposure.  

In that same vein and as others in this thread have already noted, the complete absence of any explanation of the jpeg nature of (most) histogram displays and its impact on the histogram is a serious omission, especially after the author notes how LCD display "lies".  Given the homage paid in the article to the discipline of testing/calibrating in the zone system, the author failed to explain the similar value and required discipline of testing and optimizing the histogram (and highlight blinkies for live view) of one's digital camera.  Neutralizing your in-camera jpeg settings and possibly implementing uniWB and then testing the accuracy of your histogram in various conditions by reviewing the results with tools like RawDigger is exactly what I'd expect Adams to be preaching in the digital era.  The author completely missed this opportunity for tying the old school with the new school.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 10:01:40 am by knickerhawk »
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Snafus in Digital Zone system article
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2014, 11:31:32 am »

to summarize - the article certainly does not deserve to be published and editors shall remove it soon... send it back to the author along with a copy of rawdigger.
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l_d_allan

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may be the author uses ML firmware available for some Canons and enjoys the raw histogram and thinks that everybody else is graced by the same  ::)

As a MagicLantern user on my canon DSLR's, I had the same reaction to Mr. Schneiter's well written and informative article.

Note that ML has "RAW Blinkies" in addition to the RAW histogram. I'm less familiar with Zebras, but I'm pretty sure they are RAW based.

Also, ML has very flexible "Auto-ETTR".

I've found RawDigger to be very, very helpful to really understand exposure, and it really complements MagicLantern.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2014, 11:35:04 am by l_d_allan »
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bleibert

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Re: Snafus in Digital Zone system article
« Reply #10 on: August 21, 2014, 07:52:25 pm »

I haven't read such a bad article on this site for years. It's plain boring and way, way too long. And there are really lots of strange, weired or wrong statements. Just to pick a few:

"A histogram is a graphic depiction of the actual scene, based upon actual captured data. It is immune to interpretation"
Wrong. Camera histograms always are an interpretation. Since camera makers are too dump to implement a RAW histogram (STILL!), we are looking on the histogram based on the JPEG settings in the camera. No way to judge the raw data based on this.

"The height of the "Peaks" in the histogram show the intensity of individual points in the tonal range."
Intensity? No.

"Many think of HDR as a way to make dramatic images, which it will do, but in reality, it was designed to make a long tonal range shorter, so that it could be used in a conventional way."
No, you're mixing up HDR imges (32bit) with tone mapping.

"To the contrary, RAW format is very similar to a negative."
Well, it's more. It's like the unprocessed exposure. A film you can process only once and get a negative. A raw image you can process again and again, and produce new negatives.

"Cameras should be set to Adobe RGB if you must shoot JPEG"
That is a common misunderstanding. If you would examine the colors of your pictures, you would learn, that by far most colors are inside sRGB. If you would do the maths and compare the volume of the color spaces and calculate distribution of triples inside the gamuts, you would learn that you waste 30% of your color adresses to colors not existant in the image. It's like you cut your tonal resolution from 256 steps per channel to 175. Adobe RGB and 8Bit (=JPEG) is a no-go.

"Prophoto is then converted to Adobe RGB for printing"
Why should one do this, when your printer can't print RGB. It should be converted to your printer gamut under the control of soft proof. You don't need AdobeRGB. AdobeRGB is an invention of Adobe and has nothing to do with printers or printing processes. If you are serious on color managment, you should learn about ECI and its standards.

"Inkjet printers are designed to reproduce Adobe RGB, and many digital printers can only handle SRGB"
??? Are you serious?

I prefer the times 10 years back, when there were less articles, but more quality...
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Snafus in Digital Zone system article
« Reply #11 on: August 23, 2014, 12:00:09 am »

"This area is near 240-245 RGB. Zone VII"

The author matches the Zone System zones to RGB values, but these values vary depending on the working colour profile, since they use different gamma values. For instance what in Lab mode corresponds to 50% luminance translates as very different RGB values in sRGB (nearly 2,2 gamma); Adobe RGB (2,2 gamma) and ProPhoto RGB (1,8 gamma):




So talking about zones and RGB numbers necessarily requires a colour profile (gamma) setting:



Regards

image66

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Re: Snafus in Digital Zone system article
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2014, 01:16:56 pm »

As per typical, with most "Zone System for _________" articles, it misses the point of the Zone System. This article is really only Zone System in two regards. It addresses the exposure side of things and the identification of certain tones with the zone number. Beyond that, it misses the boat.

Using the histogram as a metering and exposure visualization tool is exactly correct--provided that the histogram is looking at the raw data, not a post-deBayer histogram. A post-deBayer histogram can be off by a full stop depending on the color involved--like yellow and the other derived colors. Metering with spot meters for film exposure in the Zone System is really just the building of a mental histogram, so the camera's histogram display is just short-cutting this for us and accomplishes the same task.

Where the article goes off the rails is in the raw conversion process. I won't even touch the subject of HDR, as that went down a cul-du-sac where the neighborhood thugs hang out. Not going there. But, the problem with this article is exactly the same as in a famed photography magazine article from many years ago on "Zone System for Color Photography." The whole idea behind the Zone System isn't one-off control, but repeatable and consistant results from a set process. Only then, do you apply custom interpretive adjustments to the image.

To achieve a proper Zone System flow-through process requires calibration and repeatability. One should be able to expose an image and on import into Lightroom, select an appropriate pre-calibrated process to that image. The resulting image will be consistent and entirely predictable. Instead, the author goes into post-processing techniques that would not be necessary if the entire imaging chain was calibrated.

A calibrated input-process-output Zone System for Digital Photography should result in an image that is otherwise "exposure and contrast perfect", except for localized dodging and burning and other artistic interpretation issues, with no human intervention along the way. The idea is that if you expose it a certain way and apply a set process to the image file, the output file should be absolutely consistent with another image shot under entirely different conditions.

To be fair, I've been trying to write this same article for almost ten years now, and Until recently with Adobe Lightroom, I haven't found a way to incorporate all the steps in a calibrated and repeatable manner.

While the author does mention the raw conversion process in the article, the emphasis on having calibrated conversion settings was so glossed over as to be missed entirely. The Zone System is all about A+B=C, but this article completely misses the importance of B.

Not surprising, because nearly every article, instruction and book on the Zone System is to be faulted for the same issue.

The Zone System is about "System". It's an entire input-process-output system. Not just a means of exposure determination and describing tones.

Of course, I could be wrong and just misunderstood the article.

Edit note: When I talk about "calibration", I'm not referring to hardware calibration of monitors and papers, but calibration of the exposure and processing settings for the image. The author's mentioning of rating TriX at 200 instead of 400 is a sign that he never had a calibrated Zone System for film either. That was an exposure offset applied to compensate for mid-tone metering techniques, not with a full understanding of the exposure scale and curves of his film and processing. The end result of the Zone System is usually the effective derating of the film, (especially with N-1), but is not an automatic action.

The fact that we can use parts of the Zone System to influence certain aspects of the imaging process does not make it the Zone System.


Ken Norton
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 04:19:31 pm by image66 »
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Misirlou

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Re: Snafus in Digital Zone system article
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2014, 05:49:29 pm »

Ken,

That's certainly a good observation. The "B" is what I'm missing myself. For instance, I know my printer can only display a specific range of tones. I can send a pixel to it with a brightness of 1, or 5, and they'll both still be the same level pure black ink. I'd like to have a nearly automated Lightroom process that squeezes my raw file into the range of brightness levels that can actually be distinguished from a well-profiled paper on that printer. Right now, I just tweak the endpoint values in curves, but I'm not doing that in a systematic way.
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pflower

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Re: Snafus in Digital Zone system article
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2014, 06:18:21 pm »

As someone who did spend an inordinate amount of time trying to calibrate, films, developers, paper and enlargers (and rather confusedly trying to follow books by Phil Davis, Minor White, Fred Picker et al) your points appear to hit the nail on the head.

The whole point of the zone system, from my understanding, was to manipulate the response curve of a specific film exposed in a specific camera developed in a specific developer to match the response curves of specific papers in specific circumstances.  And then of course you had to learn how to apply it to what you were photographing.

Since all digital capture is, at the end of the day, linear there is very little, if anything, you can do at at the point of exposure except make the decision about whether you are going to favour highlight detail for shadow detail or vice versa based upon your understanding of how your flexible your system and raw converter might be.

But the main problem is that what do you measure?  In digital photography you judge what you do on the screen.  However well calibrated that might be it is not the same thing as a print.  I suppose with a densitometer and a lot of time you could map some correlation between your display and a final print and develop a pre-set curve to reflect that.  But really - is it worth the effort?

Having said that I still find an understanding of the zone system useful in understand what is going on, but at the end of the day it is system/technique/methodology that is useful for one specific way of working - printing from black and white negatives.

 
As per typical, with most "Zone System for _________" articles, it misses the point of the Zone System. This article is really only Zone System in two regards. It addresses the exposure side of things and the identification of certain tones with the zone number. Beyond that, it misses the boat.

Using the histogram as a metering and exposure visualization tool is exactly correct--provided that the histogram is looking at the raw data, not a post-deBayer histogram. A post-deBayer histogram can be off by a full stop depending on the color involved--like yellow and the other derived colors. Metering with spot meters for film exposure in the Zone System is really just the building of a mental histogram, so the camera's histogram display is just short-cutting this for us and accomplishes the same task.

Where the article goes off the rails is in the raw conversion process. I won't even touch the subject of HDR, as that went down a cul-du-sac where the neighborhood thugs hang out. Not going there. But, the problem with this article is exactly the same as in a famed photography magazine article from many years ago on "Zone System for Color Photography." The whole idea behind the Zone System isn't one-off control, but repeatable and consistant results from a set process. Only then, do you apply custom interpretive adjustments to the image.

To achieve a proper Zone System flow-through process requires calibration and repeatability. One should be able to expose an image and on import into Lightroom, select an appropriate pre-calibrated process to that image. The resulting image will be consistent and entirely predictable. Instead, the author goes into post-processing techniques that would not be necessary if the entire imaging chain was calibrated.

A calibrated input-process-output Zone System for Digital Photography should result in an image that is otherwise "exposure and contrast perfect", except for localized dodging and burning and other artistic interpretation issues, with no human intervention along the way. The idea is that if you expose it a certain way and apply a set process to the image file, the output file should be absolutely consistent with another image shot under entirely different conditions.

To be fair, I've been trying to write this same article for almost ten years now, and Until recently with Adobe Lightroom, I haven't found a way to incorporate all the steps in a calibrated and repeatable manner.

While the author does mention the raw conversion process in the article, the emphasis on having calibrated conversion settings was so glossed over as to be missed entirely. The Zone System is all about A+B=C, but this article completely misses the importance of B.

Not surprising, because nearly every article, instruction and book on the Zone System is to be faulted for the same issue.

The Zone System is about "System". It's an entire input-process-output system. Not just a means of exposure determination and describing tones.

Of course, I could be wrong and just misunderstood the article.

Edit note: When I talk about "calibration", I'm not referring to hardware calibration of monitors and papers, but calibration of the exposure and processing settings for the image. The author's mentioning of rating TriX at 200 instead of 400 is a sign that he never had a calibrated Zone System for film either. That was an exposure offset applied to compensate for mid-tone metering techniques, not with a full understanding of the exposure scale and curves of his film and processing. The end result of the Zone System is usually the effective derating of the film, (especially with N-1), but is not an automatic action.

The fact that we can use parts of the Zone System to influence certain aspects of the imaging process does not make it the Zone System.


Ken Norton
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image66

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Re: Snafus in Digital Zone system article
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2014, 12:53:31 pm »

Granted, I did oversimplify...  So, I'll make it more confusing and much more likely to get criticized.  :)

Zone System is A+B+C=D, not A+B=C

A is your exposure control.
B is your film/sensor characteristics AND development settings (chemistry, time, or lightroom raw conversion settings).
C is your paper/output characteristics AND development settings (chemistry, handling, printer profiles, RIP).
D is the final result.


In Ansel Adams' trilogy book "The Negative", he takes 50 pages to describe the Zone System in Chapter 4. I won't repeat all 50 pages here, by any means, but I will hit a couple more salient points and try to give an interpretation for the digital world--which is sure to be wrong in some regard, so I'll stick high-level and willingly accept the flaming arrows.

In the second paragraph of Chapter Four, AA writes: "You may well ask why anyone should go to such pains to produce consistent negatives when we have printing papers available in several contrast grades and other printing controls that allow us to compensate for negatives of differing scales. While every such control has its uses, it is best to strive for the optimum negative to minimize dependency on printing contrast control, since the tones of the print may be best achieved with the use of normal-contrast paper. In particular, papers of higher-than-normal contrast make it increasingly difficult to control the refinements of the higher and lower tonalities. It might be preferable to work for a negative of extensive density range and print only on the longest scale papers, but there is then little additional tolerance when we desire softer results."

My personal translation of this paragraph for the digital world would be this: "You may well ask why anyone should go to such pains to produce consistent converted raw files, when we have inkjet printers, soft proofing and Photoshop to adjust contrast, exposure, clarity, gamma, curves and saturation. While every such editing tool has its uses, it is best to strive for the optimum image file to minimize dependency on Photoshop adjustments, since the tones of the print may be best achieved with the use of minimal tonal reassignment. In particular, major amounts of contrast adjustment make it increasingly difficult to control the refinements of the higher and lower tonalities, which require more highlight and shadow recovery. It might be preferable to work for an image file of full density range, but we run the risk of overcooking the results and it's hard to back off to a more reasonable image." (I editorialized)

In my A+B+C=D description, you will note that I lumped sensor/film and development together. This is an important point--if not THE critical point of this entire discussion. In the classic film Zone System, the film's characteristics and development techniques (developer, processing time, handling) work together to form a specific response curve. In the digital world, the sensor and raw converter together are the equivalent. One does not exist without the other. To adjust these curves, the Zone System generally allows (depending on film types) anywhere from N-2 to N+2 development. This is an expansion or contraction of the contrast range of the original scene onto the storage medium.

Films have three exposure areas of interest: Toe, Shoulder, Straight-Line Section. With digital, we only have the Straight-Line Section. However, the Straight-Line Section of a digital sensor is FAR longer than the Straight-Line Section of almost every film ever made. (Ilford XP2, which is well-regarded for it's extremely wide exposure-latitude has no Straight-Line Section, but is entirely Shoulder and Toe). Development and exposure adjustments for film photography allows us to put more of the exposure range into the toe or shoulder of the film. The more you do it, the more tonal separation you lose. While film photography allows us to lean into the toe and shoulder to effectively give us more exposure range (which can be recovered with further manipulations through the printing process), digital photography is an all or nothing affair. There is no toe or shoulder to save your bacon. Of the B&W films that I use today (mostly Ilford films), I'm pretty safe in saying that I've got about 8 stops of tonal scale with reasonably normal tonal separation and a limit of another 8 stops of something lurking in the toe and shoulder. And that's only possible if I'm really good and have exposed and processed the film perfectly. In reality, my world usually ends at 12 stops. About the same as a modern digital sensor--and with the digital image I can fudge a shoulder and toe through the addition of dithering noise to the image.

The idea behind a "Zone System for Digital Photography" is to have as little tonal manipulation to the image file as possible to preserve tonal separation and integrity. In other words, touch it once in regards to tonal assignment.

The premise behind this is that the time to get the basic contrast and tonal curves defined is at the moment of raw conversion. NOT afterwords in the editor. ETTR (Expose To The Right) is often times one of the worst ways to work because it may end up with the most extensive bit reassignments. However, for maximizing tonal scale, it is the best method and I would usually say that it is the preferred method for Zone System style photography--but not always. Remember, this is all about interpreting the scene and assignment of brightness values into a stored brightness value for processing down the chain. If I want something absolutely black, I'll make sure that I'm "climbing the wall" on the left side of the histogram and if I want something absolutely white, I'll make sure that I'm  "climbing the wall" on the right side of the histogram. If my subject is decidedly middle-tone, why in the world would I ETTR and then go through the bit-bending to reassign values downward and resort to highlight recovery to keep the colors in the high tones from going wonky? The classic Zone System isn't always just about maximizing tonal scale, but it is about shooting for the output with minimal manipulation.

A little hint from a darkroom dog: When exposing the paper under an enlarger, we use almost the same exact exposure settings, regardless of the subject. Unless we are trying to be a hero, we don't take a thin, under exposed negative and pull exposure three stops to get a print, and we don't take a negative as dense as welders' goggles and blast the paper for five minutes. We try to have negatives that, regardless of the subject, is exposed and processed to a normalized setting where we are maximizing the straight-line section or where a desired tonality is printed with minimal adjustment. Yet, in the digital world, this is EXACTLY what we are doing--taking severely under or over-exposed images! We're taking an ETTR image and pulling exposure multiple stops! This isn't necessarily a bad thing, however, as the linear capture technology of digital photography piles all the bit depth on the top end (essentially into the "shoulder" of the sensor). Which now leads to my next point.

The sensor and raw processor are integral. You cannot separate the two. They are one. It is extremely critical that you not only carefully match the raw converter to the sensor/camera, but also get your tonal adjustments nailed down as close as possible at this stage. As much as we love Adobe around here, it is no secret that the ACR engine used in Photoshop, Bridge and Lightroom isn't the best converter for every sensor. I won't get into specifics, and I'm sure that I'm shocking some people, but there is a difference between raw converters and algorithms. Some converters use RGBG in the matrix, others use RGB in the matrix, others use RB(average GG) in the matrix, others use RG+BG in the matrix... An occasional one uses RGB-G... Basically, if you can envision it, there is a converter doing it. Adobe's conversion engine is the best general-purpose converter available, just as D76 was the best general-purpose film developer.

When converting the raw file itself, this is the point where you want to get the resulting file for editing as close to the exposure and contrast as possible. Do it before TIFF/JPEG storage and assigning a color space. (Lightroom is the variable here, since it doesn't really give much separation between the conversion and the editing--with mixed results depending on the image file in question--unlike most converters, it doesn't specifically give controls over just the raw conversion process). The raw conversion process is where you expand the contrast range to stretch the histogram to the desired high/low points and get the midtone positioned properly. This is where the general image gamma (conversion from a linear to non-linear exposure curve) is applied. Get this right and your job in the editor is much easier. Get it wrong and you're stealing bits from somewhere. Yes, during the raw conversion process, you are moving bits around, but you are also doing it in a bit depth much greater than 8 or even 16. Even though most cameras store the RGBG data in 12-16 bits, the raw converter is using floating point calculations and other math techniques to effectively be giving 24+ bit depth processing. (This is a technique used in the professional audio world where we do everything possible in the A-D process as the effective bit depth can be as high as 128). Do most of the exposure and contrast adjustment at this stage because you'll never have this much effective bit depth available again. (More bit depth doesn't necessarily mean greater dynamic range, but usually means smoother gradients between tones--especially in the lower tones and near the thresholds of the exposure range).

So, this is where the Zone System comes into play again. Back in Ansel Adams' time, with some of the films available and in larger formats, he could pull development and push development. He had N-2, N-1, normal, N+1 and N+2 exposure and development settings. With digital, unless you dive into HDR, we have normal, N+1 and N+2 at our disposal. Actually, depending on the raw converter, we have as much as N+5 or so available. Not having N-1 or N-2 available with digital is not a problem because the digital sensor's Straight-Line Section is so long, and we can resort to HDR to give us N- numbers of mind-boggling proportions. In reality, a camera, such as the Nikon D800 is already effectively at the N-2 point. (One difference, though, is that while the first two stops of shadow in a digital file is represented by a total of three bits and is either an all or nothing affair, film has more gradient potential in the shadows).

Let's assume a Nikon D800 file here, exposed ETTR, of a typical midday landscape. I'll be generous and use the commonly referenced 14 EV range. 14 stops of almost entirely straight-line section is about what an N-2 processed negative is going to get you. This means that almost without exception, we end up having to increase image contrast to get a full-range histogram that touches absolute black and absolute white. This stretching of the of the contrast is the development equivalent of going to N-1, normal, N+1 or N+2 development.

In most converters (to varying degrees and implementations), you can save basic conversion settings. You can create conversion settings for N-2, N-1, normal, N+1 and N+2. These settings not only stretch the contrast, but also adjust the mid-tone placement. This applies your standardized gamma settings to the files AND you can also apply curves adjustments which create an artificial Toe and Shoulder. Remember, that this D800 file is 14 stops of Straight Line Section, compared to a B&W film with a maximum 8 stops of Straight Line Section and 4-8 stops of Toe and Shoulder. You really can take the middle 8 stops, keep them straight and the other stops and squish them a bit.

With a single click of the button, we can take a Zone System exposed camera file and get an image that is proof ready. Of course, you can always go back and do a custom raw conversion, but with a well-defined and implemented "Zone System for Digital Photography" you usually won't need to. This is the equivalent to the careful selection of film+developer+processing technique for film photography.

The key to this is testing, calibration and profiling your "digital film". In my copy of "The Negative", Appendix 1 is titled "Film Testing Procedures". While the specific instructions are film-centric, the general rules of testing are easily adaptable to digital photography. Appendix 2 shows film testing results that you can further compare to as part of your own learning and calibration process to know whether you are on the right track or not.

The third book in the Ansel Adams' trilogy is "The Print". This book addresses the "C" part of my equation, but is not really as core to the Zone System as A and B. This book deals with today's equivalent of Photoshop processing, print calibration and other such issues. "The Print" assumes that you've already gotten a usable negative that is reasonably close to being printable.

While no discussion of the Zone System should be without hitting the finer points of Value, Zone and Placement, I'll chop this off here as if it goes any longer, it should be presented as an entire illustrated article, not just a post to a forum thread. Other famous and not so famous photographers and authors have written extensively about the Zone System and tried to adapt it to various other areas of photography, but I have found that most of them confuse issues or are selective in picking parts of the System but not all. I wrote this response with the perspective of keeping it as pure to the original Ansel Adams presentation of the Zone System as possible and translating it to the digital photography world.

Ken Norton
« Last Edit: August 29, 2014, 05:06:09 pm by image66 »
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re:
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2014, 07:14:58 pm »

I entirely read your interesting post. I don't agree though with your focus on doing all/most bit rearrangements in the RAW development stage. Even Photoshop which is a 15-bit (not 16-bit) integer tool, allows to strongly process your images with no problems regarding the lack of tonal levels in the final image. Noise (read noise in the shadows, photon noise in the mid and high tones) dithers any problem of this kind. I only experienced posterization issues in uniform colour areas with good exposure (i.e. areas with a lot of levels and high SNR; typ. skies), and only when truncating to 8-bit (JPEG conversion). The well known solution is add noise for dithering.

ETTR is in fact only effective for SNR improvement, the increase of tonal levels from overexposure on its own is useless and means no advantage if SNR doesn't improve at the same time (a real world example for this is doing ETTR through pushing ISO on Sony's iso-less sensors: the higher the ISO setting the more levels you get, but SNR remains in this type of sensor. Therefore image quality doesn't improve).

Extreme example: left image has four times more levels (2 bits), but thanks to noise dithering both share the same quality and robustness against extra post processing:



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fdisilvestro

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Re: Snafus in Digital Zone system article
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2014, 08:00:14 pm »

ETTR (Expose To The Right) is often times one of the worst ways to work because it may end up with the most extensive bit reassignments. However, for maximizing tonal scale, it is the best method and I would usually say that it is the preferred method for Zone System style photography--but not always. Remember, this is all about interpreting the scene and assignment of brightness values into a stored brightness value for processing down the chain. If I want something absolutely black, I'll make sure that I'm "climbing the wall" on the left side of the histogram and if I want something absolutely white, I'll make sure that I'm  "climbing the wall" on the right side of the histogram. If my subject is decidedly middle-tone, why in the world would I ETTR and then go through the bit-bending to reassign values downward and resort to highlight recovery to keep the colors in the high tones from going wonky? The classic Zone System isn't always just about maximizing tonal scale, but it is about shooting for the output with minimal manipulation.


If done properly, there is no issue at all with what you call "bit reassignments". It is nothing more than a scalar multiplication/division of each value by a constant factor and it is the same type of calculation performed to properly adjust white balance in raw. You could actually combine both factors (ETTR compensation and WB) and end up with just one multiplication. Cameras do it internally when selecting a different ISO and some cameras apply this "bit reassignments" with no clear purpose (such as the WB pre-conditioning in Nikon's NEFs).

Now, if you plan to compensate for ETTR after you demosaiced and color encoded, then you will get all kind of issues as you mention. Unfortunatelly, most RAW converters don't allow you to control this scaling of the raw values before demosaicing, one exception being RawTherapee.

image66

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« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2014, 06:34:42 pm »

I entirely read your interesting post. I don't agree though with your focus on doing all/most bit rearrangements in the RAW development stage. Even Photoshop which is a 15-bit (not 16-bit) integer tool, allows to strongly process your images with no problems regarding the lack of tonal levels in the final image. Noise (read noise in the shadows, photon noise in the mid and high tones) dithers any problem of this kind. I only experienced posterization issues in uniform colour areas with good exposure (i.e. areas with a lot of levels and high SNR; typ. skies), and only when truncating to 8-bit (JPEG conversion). The well known solution is add noise for dithering.

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I made a special point over the emphasis of the raw development stage, because this is the one time where the original file data, which contains the read voltage values of the sensels themselves, is transcoded into the RGB data which we use for editing. This happens only once and is the closest we get to the original analog-to-digital process. While the camera has done the A-D process internally, it has effectively recorded the voltage levels in an interim format (raw file), which is essentially unusable for any practical purpose. It's an unprocessed sheet of film with a latent image on it. With film, we can adjust the chemistry and development time to move the response curve of the image before fixing the image permanently. Same with a raw developer, we can adjust the raw data in a way that significantly moves the response curve of the image before fixing the image into an editable file. The main advantage to doing the heavy lifting at this stage, than later in the editor, is that the raw converter is the second half of the analog-to-digital conversion process and is doing complex math on multiple "samples" (sensels) with a far more powerful calculation than is possible later.

All this is regardless of Zone System or just winging it. The Zone System is just a prepackaged methodology based on calibration and profiling of the imaging chain. The value of the Zone System has always been debated and Adams and Weston were said to have disagreed over its value. If those two couldn't agree, then I'm not going to pretend to be a Zone System apologist. We've found that "winging it" has worked pretty well in the digital age.

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ETTR is in fact only effective for SNR improvement...


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No. ETTR allows a greater level of tonal separation in lower tones when further editing is required. It DOES help SNR with most CMOS based cameras as the noise pattern is not uniform across the entire tonal range. The shadows get really grungy with posterization artifacts. By bumping the exposure in-camera as high as possible and then pulling exposure back in the conversion process moves the artifacts down low enough where they are not an issue.

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Extreme example: left image has four times more levels (2 bits), but thanks to noise dithering both share the same quality and robustness against extra post processing:


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I understand your point, but will disagree with the premise of it. You have presented two images in output form, not in edit form. These two images can also be used to prove my point. If I were to convert a file direct to output format with no additional editing required, I could output it right to 8 bit, or whatever, bit depth and it would be absolutely identical to a file that is stored as a 16 bit file and then later converted to 8 bit. And that's the point of getting it as close as possible during the raw conversion process because the bits don't need to be moved around later.

Ken Norton
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fdisilvestro

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Re:
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2014, 04:35:07 pm »

No. ETTR allows a greater level of tonal separation in lower tones when further editing is required. It DOES help SNR with most CMOS based cameras as the noise pattern is not uniform across the entire tonal range. The shadows get really grungy with posterization artifacts. By bumping the exposure in-camera as high as possible and then pulling exposure back in the conversion process moves the artifacts down low enough where they are not an issue.



ETTR is about improving SNR. What you describe is possible because of the increased SNR. Better separation in lower tones require less noise unless you are using a lower bit depth than required, in which case you will see banding
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