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Author Topic: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics  (Read 9330 times)

mezzoduomo

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Re: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2014, 08:42:35 am »

Very interesting. I'll be watching the Seattle 'experiment' over time...

Additional testing in different places that have other kinds of diverse economies would be a great next step.

If we could get to $9.00 in Phoenix, $11.00 in Miami, $14.00 in Los Angeles, etc, and measure carefully, we'd have additional objective evidence which would help refute the preconceived notions.

"Ecosystems" (as defined in the talk) have a tremendous ability to adapt, and this particular stimulus might prompt very positive adaptations.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2014, 12:07:46 pm »

Raising minimum wages just eliminates jobs for the young and unskilled.  If you want to help people, reduce taxes to increase money available for investments to grow the economy providing more jobs and for people to buy things they need.  Also, stop printing money to pay for government deficits.    That also reduces money available to buy things by raising the cost of everything due to inflation.   These policies hurt middle income people and the poor and others on fixed income like retirees the most. 

deejjjaaaa

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Re: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2014, 12:38:21 pm »

...to increase money available...  and for people to buy things... That also reduces money available to buy things

lovely logic...
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2014, 01:08:42 pm »

Raising minimum wages just eliminates jobs for the young and unskilled.  If you want to help people, reduce taxes to increase money available for investments to grow the economy providing more jobs and for people to buy things they need.  Also, stop printing money to pay for government deficits.    That also reduces money available to buy things by raising the cost of everything due to inflation.   These policies hurt middle income people and the poor and others on fixed income like retirees the most. 

Talking about "preconceived notions."

Didn't we decrease taxes in the Bush years and kept them low even during the current administration? Aren't they currently at their historic lows? "To increase money"? Historically, there has never been so much money stashed in corporate cash reserves as today, and profits are also hitting historic highs. Inflation? What inflation?

Alan Klein

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Re: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2014, 03:06:40 pm »

Beside federal income taxes, there are social security, state, city, sales, real estate and other taxes.  My real estate taxes this year went up 9%!  That money is not available for me to save, invest or to spend so my standard of living goes down.  Although I was referring to personal taxes in my last post, higher corporate taxes also effect us if we own any stock such as through our 401K or other retirement plans.  If companies pay higher corporate taxes, less income is distributed to the stockholders - us - so we are also directly effected by corporate taxes.

Let me answer your question about, "What inflation?"  In the 5 years (2008-2013) inflation has gone up over 10%.  http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/inflation/current-inflation-rates/   I haven't had a raise since 2008.  (I retired last year).  Therefore, my salary has a purchasing power of 10% less than it could buy things in 2008.  It's as if someone was lowering my salary by 10% during this period.   It also reduced by 10% the purchasing power of my savings.  In effect, that inflation is a hidden tax that decreases my standard of living by reducing the value of the dollar.  And yours!  
« Last Edit: August 28, 2014, 03:10:10 pm by Alan Klein »
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2014, 03:15:36 pm »

My real estate taxes this year went up 9%!  That money is not available for me to save, invest or to spend so my standard of living goes down.

well, where are your RE taxes are going ? I bet to pay some overpaid municipal employees (or retirees),  so that they can increase their disposable income  ::) - so not that bad... or may be to pay off some bonds that were still issued to finance some school construction ? again - workers were paid, building materials suppliers were paid... may be even some kickbacks - but that again increases the income for somebody

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Alan Klein

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Re: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2014, 05:09:54 pm »

The redistribution of wealth through taxes go mostly to the higher income earners who invest and to businesses.    All that money that was printed went to the bankers and other in the financial businesses.  Crony-capitalism, not true capitalism. Likewise, inflation mainly helps the rich to pay back debt and investment to increase their wealth with cheaper inflated dollars.  The average person just see the cost of living going up.  It's true that taxes do help governmental workers.  But most people don't work for the government.  They're the ones whose taxes pay for the government workers.  They're the ones with less disposable income struggling to make ends meet. 

PeterAit

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Re: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2014, 05:19:15 pm »

Raising minimum wages just eliminates jobs for the young and unskilled.  If you want to help people, reduce taxes to increase money available for investments to grow the economy providing more jobs and for people to buy things they need.  Also, stop printing money to pay for government deficits.    That also reduces money available to buy things by raising the cost of everything due to inflation.   These policies hurt middle income people and the poor and others on fixed income like retirees the most. 

Inflation? Oh wait, there is none. Oops. Raising minimum wage reduces jobs? Oops, absolutely no evidence for this. Oh my! Trickle-down theory? Disproved over and over and over again, but what the hey, Rush and Fox say I should believe it. Facts? I hate 'em. I make up my own.
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2014, 05:26:46 pm »

The redistribution of wealth through taxes go mostly to the higher income earners who invest and to businesses. 
and where do they invest ? I 'd assume that they invest extra money after "redistribution of wealth through taxes" in the same places where they 'd otherwise invest w/ lower taxes :-)... so what is your logic again ? or is it the same pearl like "to increase money available...  and for people to buy things... That also reduces money available to buy things "

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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics
« Reply #10 on: August 28, 2014, 05:53:44 pm »

I read Hanauer's piece a couple of months ago.  The fact is that in the US we are under taxed compared to the rest of the developed world.  We are almost the only country left that does not have a national sales tax (Value Added Tax) and our corporate and individual tax laws are a joke, replete with loop holes.  I live in a high tax state and locality but I don't mind paying taxes as we have lots of parks, an extensive library system, excellent schools (two daughters went all the way through public schools so I didn't have to pay out private school tuition), and roads that are well kept up.  My bottom line is that if the government can show demonstrable public good through the expenditures, I'm happy to pay taxes.  What I really want to see is a total overhaul of the tax system so that all the preferences that are inherent are done away with.
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Misirlou

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Re: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics
« Reply #11 on: August 28, 2014, 07:00:11 pm »

Inflation? Oh wait, there is none. Oops. Raising minimum wage reduces jobs? Oops, absolutely no evidence for this. Oh my! Trickle-down theory? Disproved over and over and over again, but what the hey, Rush and Fox say I should believe it. Facts? I hate 'em. I make up my own.

"Trickledown theory" is a shibboleth. It can't have been disproved, because it was never implemented. We can talk about supply side control of inflation or something if you wish, but when you start playing the "trickledown" card, you're quoting sources at least as biased as those you're mocking.

No inflation? Really? Yes, one widely quoted federal inflation indicator has been relatively flat for a long time. That indicator specifically excludes food and energy costs, which are a huge portion of the budgets of low income folks. Meats are at record high dollar levels, for example, which can be traced back to the costs of feed, which have been hit hard by a number of other factors. Would you like to list the items that have gotten much less expensive that balance out those two?

No evidence that raising minimum wage reduces jobs? I don't need anyone's study to tell me that I won't be hiring any more minimum wage employees. Here's the problem with minimum wage for those of us who actually hire people - you can only raise the costs of employing low skilled people to the point where it becomes more cost effective to instead divert that money to others. I know what the total cost of employment is for all of my staff. I know what happens when I have to carry the ones that go on federally mandated family and medical leave. At this point, there's no way I'm hiring anyone to sweep up around the office, or file papers or something because it would cost me a lot more than just giving a couple of the others a few hours of overtime. This is why unemployment levels for young people are so high right now.

I don't run a business that relies mostly on low-skill workers though. If I did, and my hourly labor costs suddenly went way up, you know what I'd do? Look for the people that were attracted back into the labor pool by the higher wages. Hint - they would not be young, entry level kids.
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Misirlou

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Re: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics
« Reply #12 on: August 28, 2014, 07:03:24 pm »

and where do they invest ? I 'd assume that they invest extra money after "redistribution of wealth through taxes" in the same places where they 'd otherwise invest w/ lower taxes :-)... so what is your logic again ? or is it the same pearl like "to increase money available...  and for people to buy things... That also reduces money available to buy things "



I think you're missing something important. Federal taxes have to be used somewhere. Typically, to hire more highly paid federal workers in DC. If I invest more money on my own, it's likely to be toward things that increase productivity.
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Misirlou

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Re: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics
« Reply #13 on: August 28, 2014, 07:07:34 pm »

lovely logic...

Not a fair read of his statements. His argument is that lowering taxes increases the money available for investments. What he claimed would reduce the money available for investment was excessive federal borrowing, not the lowering of taxes. Two different ideas.
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2014, 07:09:41 pm »

I think you're missing something important. Federal taxes have to be used somewhere. Typically, to hire more highly paid federal workers in DC. If I invest more money on my own, it's likely to be toward things that increase productivity.
we are talking not about you, but about low paid dudes who do not have an IQ developed enough to earn $$$ outside of low paying hourly (w/o benefits mostly) positions...  why do you think your investment will be better then investment of those "highly paid federal workers in DC" in regards to creating more jobs for low paid dudes or creating a job market demand for low paid dudes that shall allegedly drive their compensation higher ?
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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2014, 07:14:11 pm »

Not a fair read of his statements. His argument is that lowering taxes increases the money available for investments.
I think you need to reread his text he says that there will be (in the end, as a result of his suggestion) more money for people to buy things and at the same time his suggestion "reduces money available to buy things by raising the cost of everything due to inflation"... what one hand gives the other takes.

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deejjjaaaa

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Re: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2014, 07:20:17 pm »

At this point, there's no way I'm hiring anyone to sweep up around the office, or file papers or something because it would cost me a lot more than just giving a couple of the others a few hours of overtime.
so do you pay 1.5 for overtime (overtime and this is non exempt job) for somebody to sweep around the office ?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2014, 07:41:08 pm »

...This is why unemployment levels for young people are so high right now...

How so? There hasn't been any increase in minimum wage yet. On the contrary, real minimum wage (i.e., adjusted for inflation) has been steadily eroding over the last decade or so.

Alan Klein

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Re: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2014, 11:38:19 pm »

How so? There hasn't been any increase in minimum wage yet. On the contrary, real minimum wage (i.e., adjusted for inflation) has been steadily eroding over the last decade or so.

Assuming you're right and low wage employment levels are down for other reasons, how would raising minimum wage raise employment levels for these people?    If businesses are not creating jobs at the current minimum rate, why would they create jobs at a higher rate?   In fact,  the amount of jobs available are always reduced when the minimum rate goes up.  

Alan Klein

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Re: Interesting talk - warning it's about economics and politics
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2014, 12:09:28 am »

I think you need to reread his text he says that there will be (in the end, as a result of his suggestion) more money for people to buy things and at the same time his suggestion "reduces money available to buy things by raising the cost of everything due to inflation"... what one hand gives the other takes.



That's not what I said.  I said that government printing of money devalues our purchasing power.  That means we can purchase less for each dollar because each dollar is worth less.  That's what inflation is all about.  To state there is no inflation, as you have done, is just plain wrong.  A simple check of the inflation rate between Jan2008 through Dec 2013 indicates a cumulative 10.4% increase. http://usinflation.org/us-inflation-rate-calculator/  If you were taking home let's say $50,000 in Jan 2008, and you had no subsequent raises, the $50,000 would have less than $45,000 in purchasing power in Dec 2013.  Inflation by the Fed and subsequent raising of costs to buy things, would cause an unseen tax  of over $5000 this year.  It's actually higher since there's inflation this year in 2014 as well.
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