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Author Topic: shutter vibration  (Read 5869 times)

texshooter

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shutter vibration
« on: August 09, 2014, 08:47:01 PM »

Has anyone conducted precise tests to determine the degree of sharpness gained/lost by these tripod shooting techniques? With the lastest and greatest lens de-blurring software available, I'm wondering if these traditional precautions are still necessary.

1. Camera on tripod, finger triggering, plus de-blurring software
2. Camera on tripod, shutter release cable
3. Camera on tripod, shutter release cable, mirror lockup
4. Camera on tripod, shutter release cable, mirror lockup, saddled beanbag

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Tony Jay

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Re: shutter vibration
« Reply #1 on: August 10, 2014, 05:27:47 AM »

Has anyone conducted precise tests to determine the degree of sharpness gained/lost by these tripod shooting techniques? With the lastest and greatest lens de-blurring software available, I'm wondering if these traditional precautions are still necessary.

1. Camera on tripod, finger triggering, plus de-blurring software
2. Camera on tripod, shutter release cable
3. Camera on tripod, shutter release cable, mirror lockup
4. Camera on tripod, shutter release cable, mirror lockup, saddled beanbag


Why don't you go and check the Tutorial series "Camera to Print and Screen" available on this website.
Schewe goes through all the options above and compares them - easy to see the differences.

Tony Jay
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Hans Kruse

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Re: shutter vibration
« Reply #2 on: August 10, 2014, 05:37:00 AM »

Has anyone conducted precise tests to determine the degree of sharpness gained/lost by these tripod shooting techniques? With the lastest and greatest lens de-blurring software available, I'm wondering if these traditional precautions are still necessary.

1. Camera on tripod, finger triggering, plus de-blurring software
2. Camera on tripod, shutter release cable
3. Camera on tripod, shutter release cable, mirror lockup
4. Camera on tripod, shutter release cable, mirror lockup, saddled beanbag



I never tried deblurring software and I'm of the opinion that you cannot regain details from any software process that isn't there in the first place. At most I believe it is possible to repair.

With current DSLR's or other cameras that support live view shooting, the best method in my opinion is using a study tripod, a very solid ball head and an L-bracket on the camera. Then use live view with electronic first curtain (EFC) to avoid shutter shock for starting the exposure. EFC is found on Canon DSLR's since around 2008 and on Nikon D810. I'm not aware of any Sony DSLR or DSLR look a like that supports this and the Sony A7R does not, unfortuntately. I do expect a new Sony A7R II to have EFC like the D810 since the sensor clearly supports this now.

If there is wind then you can add weight to the tripod and avoid anything flapping in the wind like the camera strap. The better approach with wind is to get the tripod down to the ground if possible.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: shutter vibration
« Reply #3 on: August 10, 2014, 06:14:01 AM »

Hi,

Just to fill in, the Sony Alpha 77, Alpha 99 and A7 all have EFC. I own both the Alpha 99 and the Alpha 77.

Best regards
Erik

I never tried deblurring software and I'm of the opinion that you cannot regain details from any software process that isn't there in the first place. At most I believe it is possible to repair.

With current DSLR's or other cameras that support live view shooting, the best method in my opinion is using a study tripod, a very solid ball head and an L-bracket on the camera. Then use live view with electronic first curtain (EFC) to avoid shutter shock for starting the exposure. EFC is found on Canon DSLR's since around 2008 and on Nikon D810. I'm not aware of any Sony DSLR or DSLR look a like that supports this and the Sony A7R does not, unfortuntately. I do expect a new Sony A7R II to have EFC like the D810 since the sensor clearly supports this now.

If there is wind then you can add weight to the tripod and avoid anything flapping in the wind like the camera strap. The better approach with wind is to get the tripod down to the ground if possible.
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Hans Kruse

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Re: shutter vibration
« Reply #4 on: August 10, 2014, 06:36:45 AM »

Hi,

Just to fill in, the Sony Alpha 77, Alpha 99 and A7 all have EFC. I own both the Alpha 99 and the Alpha 77.

Best regards
Erik


Thanks Erik and I do know that the Sony A7S and the A7 has EFC.

Glenn NK

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Re: shutter vibration
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2014, 11:48:14 AM »

Why accept the starting point of a blurred image?

Agree, but maybe it's OK if the de-blurring algorithm is perfect.

But, tell me, what is perfect?  ;D

Glenn
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Ellis Vener

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Re: shutter vibration
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2014, 01:49:35 PM »

"With the lastest and greatest lens de-blurring software available, I'm wondering if these traditional precautions are still necessary."

GIGO still rules. having used the ones in Phoptoshop CS I think of those post-processing  tools  as falling into the category as "if all else fails, try this" technique.   As good as those algorithms are, they are  not the same as getting it right in camera.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2014, 09:33:44 AM by Ellis Vener »
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texshooter

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Re: shutter vibration
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2014, 03:44:10 PM »

Then use live view with electronic first curtain (EFC) to avoid shutter shock for starting the exposure.

i'll have to try this. Here's pudding proof..

http://www.robertotoole.com/2014/01/28/electronic-first-shutter-curtain/

but i still dont understand why DSLRs are able to drain the sensor photo sites pixel row by pixel row without the need of a moving front curtain, but DSLRs cannot collect sensor image data row by row without a moving rear curtain. it appears contradictory. Moreover, eliminating the front curtain reduces vibration--i get that--but wouldnt the moving rear curtain transmit vibration to the entire sensor and not just the masked portion? Ill just have to trust the engineers on this one.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2014, 04:12:20 PM by texshooter »
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Hans Kruse

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Re: shutter vibration
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2014, 03:59:16 PM »

i'll have to try this. Here's pudding proof..

http://www.robertotoole.com/2014/01/28/electronic-first-shutter-curtain/

but i still dont understand why DSLRs are able to drain the sensor photo sites pixel row by pixel row without the need of a moving front shutter, but DSLRs cannot collect sensor image data row by row without a moving rear curtain. it appears contradictory. Moreover, eliminating the front curtain reduces vibration--i get that--but wouldnt the moving rear curtain transmit vibration to the entire sensor and not just the masked portion? Ill just have to trust the engineers on this one.

See measurements on the D810 here http://blog.kasson.com/?p=6704
I can't comment on how it is done and the reason I have been shooting in live view on my Canons since 5D III (the 1Ds III had the shutter shock problem like the A7R and Nikons before D810).

LesPalenik

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Re: shutter vibration
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2014, 01:27:41 PM »

Quote
With the lastest and greatest lens de-blurring software available, I'm wondering if these traditional precautions are still necessary.
I tried three of the latest de-bluring tools and they are anything but great.

dwswager

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Re: shutter vibration
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2014, 03:22:58 PM »

Has anyone conducted precise tests to determine the degree of sharpness gained/lost by these tripod shooting techniques? With the lastest and greatest lens de-blurring software available, I'm wondering if these traditional precautions are still necessary.

1. Camera on tripod, finger triggering, plus de-blurring software
2. Camera on tripod, shutter release cable
3. Camera on tripod, shutter release cable, mirror lockup
4. Camera on tripod, shutter release cable, mirror lockup, saddled beanbag

First, deblurring algorithms are fine in situations where there is nothing you can do about it.  You already captured the image.  But you can't get back what isn't there, only do the best you can with what you have.  I can't think of a situation where a well executed sharp shot would be a worse starting point than a blurred one.

There are way to many other variables involved to give definitive answers to the question including the camera, lens, head, tripod, how everything is setup, how it is anchored to the ground, photographer technique, shutter speed, etc.

I always go back to Edwards Demming on quality..."some numbers are unknown and unknowable."  What we do know is we want to introduce as little vibration as possible and want infinite mass to damp any vibration from the system or from the environment.  Therefore, the best would be mirror lockup (waiting out the induced vibration), remote release (wireless so there is no vibration induced by the wire), and as much mass holding this thing down as possible.  Then you have to ask "What is necessary and practical?"  Necessary based on the conditions and practical based on your ability to execute the shot.  A good shot is usually better than no shot at all.  IMHO!
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Alan Klein

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Re: shutter vibration
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2014, 05:59:28 PM »

Correct me if I'm wrong.  But isn't camera shake worse on cameras with more pixels all other things remaining equal?

For me, when shooting MF film, I always use method 3.  By the way, in method 4, why would you use a tripod and a beanbag?  What is a saddled beanbag anyway?

PhotoEcosse

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Re: shutter vibration
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2014, 05:34:57 AM »



For me, when shooting MF film, I always use method 3.  By the way, in method 4, why would you use a tripod and a beanbag?  What is a saddled beanbag anyway?

First time I have heard that expression - but I assumed he meant a heavy beanbag suspended from a hook on the tripod to weigh it down. Could be totally wrong!
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Tony Jay

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Re: shutter vibration
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2014, 05:46:33 AM »

Beanbag goes on top of the camera, actually usually on the lens.
A saddled beanbag will not easily fall off.
Needs to be big and heavy enough to damp shutter vibration.

Tony Jay
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MarkL

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Re: shutter vibration
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2014, 08:07:22 AM »

Correct me if I'm wrong.  But isn't camera shake worse on cameras with more pixels all other things remaining equal?

It will only be equal better than a lower MP camera, it is just moe obvious when the file is viewed at 100% (much like noise and lens softness) which is why people freak out.
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Torbjörn Tapani

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Re:
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2014, 08:37:55 AM »

First curtain induce some vibration that is worst at some medium shutter speed, when vibration is at its worst and there is enough time to record all of it. Longer time and most of the exposure will be steady. Less time and less blurring will be recorded.

Electric front curtain just has to do a reset on a photosite and I suspect that is quicker than a full readout.

Time to close second curtain is very brief and you only have acceleration going one way so any induced vibration will be frozen by the short duration.  Good compromise.

Why we don't see fully electronic shutter is because it makes the sensor more complicated to manufacture and more expensive I presume. Mechanical shutter does for the most part do a good enough job. No rolling shutter problems etc.
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250swb

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Re: shutter vibration
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2014, 05:17:19 PM »

The first thing anybody should do when using a modern camera on a tripod is turn OFF any image stabilisation system, otherwise it continues to try and find a part of the picture that needs stabilising, so causing blur rather than preventing it. Then, when the sensor or lens elements have stopped moving, you can start doing relevant tests.

Steve
 

ErikKaffehr

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Re: shutter vibration
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2014, 05:30:57 PM »

Hi,


Good point, but:

Most of the discussion was about Sony A7r shooting third party lenses and also the Leica M(240), so image stabilisation was not an issue in most cases.

Best regards
Erik

The first thing anybody should do when using a modern camera on a tripod is turn OFF any image stabilisation system, otherwise it continues to try and find a part of the picture that needs stabilising, so causing blur rather than preventing it. Then, when the sensor or lens elements have stopped moving, you can start doing relevant tests.

Steve
 
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deejjjaaaa

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Re:
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2014, 06:09:27 PM »

Why we don't see fully electronic shutter is because it makes the sensor more complicated to manufacture and more expensive I presume.
sensors with global shutter are widely manufactured for various industrial applications for years... the issue is not the cost - the issue is that for a consumer level dSLR camera you will get either lesser DR or less MP or both vs a sensor w/o global shutter - so it is a no no from marketing standpoint (unless marketing will come up with some niche application to sell hoi polloi)... for a simple reason that you need some extra space on silicone to store the charge (and yes, some circuitry too) because there is not mechanical shutter to shield the sensel from the light... so essentially you need to half the size of your sensel "well" to have another one nearby (or reduce the number of sensels if you don't want to have smaller "wells"), to move the charge there once exposure is over... where it sits till it will be readout to ADCs (on die/off die)... unless somebody will come up with a good tech to shield those sensels from light or prevent charge accumulation.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re:
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2014, 02:35:48 AM »

Hi,

The Sony A7s has a silent shutter which is completely electronic, but it scans very slowly, so it can get distortion on moving objects and offers slow flash synchronisation times.

Check this page by Jim Kasson: http://blog.kasson.com/?m=20140713

Best regards
Erik

First curtain induce some vibration that is worst at some medium shutter speed, when vibration is at its worst and there is enough time to record all of it. Longer time and most of the exposure will be steady. Less time and less blurring will be recorded.

Electric front curtain just has to do a reset on a photosite and I suspect that is quicker than a full readout.

Time to close second curtain is very brief and you only have acceleration going one way so any induced vibration will be frozen by the short duration.  Good compromise.

Why we don't see fully electronic shutter is because it makes the sensor more complicated to manufacture and more expensive I presume. Mechanical shutter does for the most part do a good enough job. No rolling shutter problems etc.
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