Scottish Independende Debate

[AreBee]

Dave,

It is not possible for any of us to know ahead of casting our vote what will occur in the event that a Yes is returned because ultimately how the situation unfolds will depend on the willinglness of Scotland and the rUK to negotiate and compromise during a transition period. All we can do is consider the kind of country we would like to have, and trust will be delivered, and vote accordingly.

I appreciate that my response will do nothing to allay your concern.

[john beardsworth]

Well, one thing you do know is that rUK voters won't want a currency union with a foreign country. So what's so hard about saying there would be an orderly transition to an independent Scottish Pound? You know, I'd probably vote yes if I lived in Scotland, but what self-respecting country seeks independence but wants its finances to be subject to London?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Whatever bad happens, will be temporary, not terminal, so voters will not decide based on that, but on long-term prospects. Many countries declared independence in the last 10-20 years and none perished.

[john beardsworth]

Scotland will be be just fine - and the separation would be more like Czechoslovakia's break-up than Yugoslavia's. What's at issue is the purely best case argument being used to sustain the yes vote, with realistic objections being discounted. Would the yes vote be so high with more honesty from Salmond? Probably. But what honesty about currency union would achieve is reassuring some of the no and don't knows - and give him a better chance of success than he now seems to have.

[AreBee]

John,

Well, one thing you do know is that rUK voters won't want a currency union with a foreign country.

The Scottish Government has evidence that proves that a currency union is in the best interest of Scotland and the rUK. The Westminster Government has evidence that proves it is not. On what basis will rUK voters arrive at an informed decision?

In any event, with the commitment to state in their respective manifestos their refusal to enter a currency union, the three main unionist parties will deny the rUK electorate any choice in the matter.

Would the yes vote be so high with more honesty from Salmond? Probably.

Would the Yes vote be higher with more honesty from the three main unionist parties? Probably.

Honesty is not normally associated with politicians.

[john beardsworth]

In any event, with the commitment to state in their respective manifestos their refusal to enter a currency union, the three main unionist parties will deny the rUK electorate any choice in the matter.

Huh, they can always vote for someone else who advocates it. But it would be political suicide for English parties to propose currency union with a foreign country when they know English voters wouldn't want it. Had Salmond been honest about that and proposed an independent Scottish currency, or even the Euro, I doubt he'd face the same level of opposition. It's not as if a Scottish pound wouldn't be perfectly viable - it would probably be pretty strong too.

[AreBee]

John,

Had Salmond been honest about that and proposed an independent Scottish currency, or even the Euro, I doubt he'd face the same level of opposition.

Perhaps. I'm more inclined to believe that whatever currency the Scottish Government proposed would be condemned by the unionist parties. Maybe you could cite an example of something proposed by the former which hasn't been condemned by the latter?

In any event, the referendum is not about Alex Salmond, the SNP or, in my opinion, the currency, so I'm good.

[Justinr]

Bitcoin!

[jjj]

The sooner we have a world currency the better.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

The sooner we have a world currency the better.

Are you advocating for Pax Americana?

[jjj]

What has America got to do with a single currency? Or peace for that matter?

[john beardsworth]

Perhaps. I'm more inclined to believe that whatever currency the Scottish Government proposed would be condemned by the unionist parties.

Probably!

In any event, the referendum is not about Alex Salmond, the SNP or, in my opinion, the currency, so I'm good.

It's about getting more than 50%, isn't it? Nationalism doesn't look enough, and the lack of a credible plan for the currency isn't going to help win over  the no's and the don't knows. 

[stamper]

The real reason that Scargill didn't do the ballot was because Thatcher had bought off the Nottinghamshire miners with plans for modernisation and no closures. This meant they would have voted no to a strike. Ironically a few years later she went back on the promise and shafted them.

[AreBee]

John,

It's about getting more than 50%, isn't it?

To the Yes and No campaigns equally, yes. To the individual voter, no.

...the lack of a credible plan for the currency isn't going to help win over the no's and the don't knows.

I agree that uncertainty will not advance the case for Yes. I'd be interested to learn how you have determined that a currency union is not credible.

[john beardsworth]

I actually referred to the currency, but the currency union option's not credible because English voters just don't want it - as reflected by the English parties putting it in their manifestos.

[stamper]

Ed Milliband stated on television that if he became prime minister he wouldn't agree to a currency union. He then agreed with the interviewer that the policy would cost English business' hundreds of millions of pounds. How is he going to sell that to the voters? Do English voters want higher costs on goods?

[john beardsworth]

Of course, similar arguments were in favour of the UK entering the Euro, and that never happened. It's not worth commenting on how you've spun whatever Milliband said, but he and the others obviously believe that English voters want manifesto promises that there won't be a currency union. What's so hard about accepting that the other person won't tango and that you're going to need an alternative?

[AreBee]

John,

I actually referred to the currency...

My mistake, sorry. From the outset the Scottish Government has proposed Sterling as Scotland's currency. What aspect of the currency is it you consider to be not credible?

...the currency union option's not credible because English voters just don't want it - as reflected by the English parties putting it in their manifestos.

With all due respect, England is not the rUK. Nor do the parties to which you refer represent only England.

[john beardsworth]

The Scottish govt is proposing a formally agreed  currency union, and it's pretty clear that it's not credible if the other side doesn't want it. It's not as if there aren't  alternatives such as continuing to use the UK's currency or going with a Scottish Pound.

But, yeah, I am carefully using England as a wind  up! The same parties operate in Wales, while N Ireland is a special case, and there are far more English votes.

[jjj]

The real reason that Scargill didn't do the ballot was because Thatcher had bought off the Nottinghamshire miners with plans for modernisation and no closures.

Bought off or offered them a deal that was actually pretty good?

This meant they would have voted no to a strike.

So Scargill didn't go for a vote because he knew the people he represented wouldn't vote for his plan. Not exactly democratic either way.

Ironically a few years later she went back on the promise and shafted them.

Deliberate pun?
Hard to say, but if the [other] miners had not caused the country so much trouble, maybe she wouldn't have.
BTW - Not a Thatcher fan by any stretch of the imagination [she damaged Sheffield badly and for reasons of spite], but Scargill was even worse.