Scottish Independende Debate

[Dave (Isle of Skye)]

For all the Scottish people living abroad, who were unable to see this and anyone who may be interested.

Alex Salmond, Scotland's First Minister and Alistair Darling the leader of the Better Together campaign, debate the future of Scotland.

Go here, the debate is in three parts BTW.

Dave

[David Anderson]

Not a good idea.
The bent towards smaller, more tribal borders makes for weaker nations that will be less relevant.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Divide et impera?

[papa v2.0]

mmm. I can see a can of worms being opened.

Must be independence.

Iain

[Justinr]

It could probably be fairly pointed out that the United Kingdom is in fact too closely united in the first place. One of the greatest  fears about the EU the British have is that it will reduce the power of the electorate, which in many ways might be true, but other countries don't have this fear because they are far less centralised than Britain. Germany for instance is a conglomeration of federal states and those states have real powers of their own, far more than the County Councils in Britain which are little more than talking shops that pretend to oversee the implementation of central government policies, they don't really even have that power.

Scotland splitting off is a reversal of this trend and from that point of view is to be welcomed. Unfortunately it means that the Sir Humphrey's back in Whitehall will turn themselves even more ardently to the task of bossing England and Wales around instead, just to keep their degree of self importance at an acceptable level.

[Chairman Bill]

There's now a fair bit of nastiness brewing in Scotland, between the Yes & No camps. Whichever way the vote goes, I foresee civil war in Scotland, with the winner being the first side to capture the Irn Bru factory.

[fdisilvestro]

Let's hope that scotch quality and availability are not affected

[Dave (Isle of Skye)]

House of Commons, Business, Innovation and Skills Committee report.

The Implications of Scottish Independence on Business; Higher Education and Research; and Postal Services.

The report can be found here.

Dave

[jjj]

There's now a fair bit of nastiness brewing in Scotland, between the Yes & No camps. Whichever way the vote goes, I foresee civil war in Scotland, with the winner being the first side to capture the Irn Bru factory.

[jjj]

Salmond seems to have unravelled this week as when it comes down to money, keeping pound etc he's floundering. Wanting independence but keeping the UK's currency seems a confused place to be. It's like wanting out of the EU but keeping the Euro.

Salmond reminds me of Arthur Scargill. To me it seem that his agenda is Scottish Independence and damn the consequences. Even if they are calamitous for Scotland. Not saying they are BTW.
[For those who do not know Scargill the Miner's Union leader, he took on the UK government in the 80's supposedly to benefit the miners but it was more a personal battle between himself and Thatcher. The miners being the losers as the government were very well prepared after the miners had previously turned the country's lights out in the 70s].

[john beardsworth]

I find it surprising that Salmond hasn't handled the currency problem much more subtly. English politicians aren't bullying Scotland but just reflecting public opinion that doesn't want currency union with any foreign country, whether the Euro zone or Scotland. Even if presented only as a reassuring fallback position, an independent Scottish Pound has a certain nationalistic appeal - but simply denying any need for a plan B looks a very brittle strategy.

But just think, if they did go we could ban their bagpipes and Mel Gibson.

[Justinr]

Salmond seems to have unravelled this week as when it comes down to money, keeping pound etc he's floundering. Wanting independence but keeping the UK's currency seems a confused place to be. It's like wanting out of the EU but keeping the Euro.

Salmond reminds me of Arthur Scargill. To me it seem that his agenda is Scottish Independence and damn the consequences. Even if they are calamitous for Scotland. Not saying they are BTW.
[For those who do not know Scargill the Miner's Union leader, he took on the UK government in the 80's supposedly to benefit the miners but it was more a personal battle between himself and Thatcher. The miners being the losers as the government were very well prepared after the miners had previously turned the country's lights out in the 70s].

Not quite, it may have been presented that way by a press desperate to taint him but the miners did have a genuine grievance over pay and if anyone chose to personalise the conflict it was Thatcher. Scargill held the support of a large majority of miners in the UK at the time hence the length and bitterness of the strike. The idea that British industry needed modernising was certainly true but the brutal suppression of the miners was a rather backward way of going about trying to prove a point and there is little doubt that that it was short sighted and condescending management practices that had led to the stagnation of investment and new products, not stroppy workers.

[Jeremy Roussak]

Scargill held the support of a large majority of miners in the UK at the time

Nobody has any idea how much support Scargill had amongst miners, for the simple reason that he refused to allow a ballot to be held. Maybe it was substantial; maybe it was merely a small, belligerent and vocal minority. There's just no evidence.

Jeremy

[Justinr]

Nobody has any idea how much support Scargill had amongst miners, for the simple reason that he refused to allow a ballot to be held. Maybe it was substantial; maybe it was merely a small, belligerent and vocal minority. There's just no evidence.

Jeremy

True, and that certainly didn't help his cause, but as already mentioned the strike held firm for a long time throughout much of the industry which does not suggest it was a small belligerent minority as we were begged to believe by the aforementioned press.

[AreBee]

For me, thus far there have been two profound events in the campaign:

1. George Osborne stating that "if Scotland walks away from the UK it walks away from the pound", followed by a joint statement by the three principal unionist parties that they will not agree to a currency union.

2. Ed Milliband stating unequivocally that ruling out a currency union will be written into the next Labour manifesto. My understanding is that the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats have confirmed unofficially that the same applies to their respective parties.

In my opinion the currency question is a non-issue. However, the question has become a festering issue for Yes. The second point above, which occurred only yesterday has, for me, now brought the issue to a head. It will be interesting to see how Yes responds. Presumably it'll be along the lines of the following video:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28696555

[Dave (Isle of Skye)]

For me, thus far there have been two profound events in the campaign:

1. George Osborne stating that "if Scotland walks away from the UK it walks away from the pound", followed by a joint statement by the three principal unionist parties that they will not agree to a currency union.

2. Ed Milliband stating unequivocally that ruling out a currency union will be written into the next Labour manifesto. My understanding is that the Conservatives and Liberal Democrats have confirmed unofficially that the same applies to their respective parties.

In my opinion the currency question is a non-issue. However, the question has become a festering issue for Yes. The second point above, which occurred only yesterday has, for me, now brought the issue to a head. It will be interesting to see how Yes responds. Presumably it'll be along the lines of the following video:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-28696555

But do you not think if the vote is yes, that there would then be a massive movement of wealth and assets to the South of the border, to ensure it retains its known value, at least until such time as the new Scottish currency finds its own global value and the exchange rate is established and globally traded?

I am trying to not be for or against this, but it does worry me that from what I can gather, whenever a new country is created/established through being seceded, then people who have assets that can be moved quickly and easily to what may be seen as a more secure location and currency in the old and established part of the union, will probably do just that.

So if this is indeed the case, do you think that would have any effect on the value of the new Scottish currency, if vast amounts of monetary assets quickly drain out of Scotland and into the South?

Wouldn't there be an immediate run on the new Scottish currency and spiralling devaluation as a result?

Dave

[john beardsworth]

The McPound could be pegged to Sterling for a transition period, during which time tax and other policies would reassure those who might move their money. The problem isn't really the practicality but the refusal to contemplate that England just doesn't want a currency union with a foreign country. If he'd said months ago that a Scottish Pound was an equally good way forward, I doubt Salmond would be looking so exposed.

[Dave (Isle of Skye)]

The McPound could be pegged to Sterling for a transition period, during which time tax and other policies would reassure those who might move their money. The problem isn't really the practicality but the refusal to contemplate that England just doesn't want a currency union with a foreign country. If he'd said months ago that a Scottish Pound was an equally good way forward, I doubt Salmond would be looking so exposed.

But how can you peg it to the pound without incurring huge and open ended costs?

I remember the pound being pegged to the Euro, but all that led to was everyone getting their fingers severely burnt, a massive devaluation of the pound and rampant inflation. In other words, we have tried that idea before and it didn’t work, in fact it was a complete and utter disaster.

Dave

[john beardsworth]

I think the answer is that you don't have to float the McPound until you're ready. The various ERMs and shadowing have been between fully-tradable currencies.

[jjj]

True, and that certainly didn't help his cause, but as already mentioned the strike held firm for a long time throughout much of the industry which does not suggest it was a small belligerent minority as we were begged to believe by the aforementioned press.

A small belligerent minority who intimidated anyone who didn't support Scargill and his cronies, 3 people were murdered over this. The reason Scargill didn't do the ballot is because he didn't think he would win it. The whole thing was a very nasty affair with Scargill being an even worse enemy to the miners than Thatcher, which is about his only achievement.