Topic: Best System for Under $12K (Read 15235 times)

maddogmurph · « **on:** July 31, 2014, 03:59:35 pm »

I’m considering investing under $12,000. What I hope to accomplish with this investment is to begin a career in photography, which is currently a hobby.

My current system is the Fuji X-T1 which I don’t plan to get rid of and love for reasons I won’t go into here.
I also currently have a rail camera I have not used yet – Calumet with a few lenses I’ll be pulling out of my grandfather’s basement in a couple weeks and an Epson 4990 for scanning film to Digital.

The systems I’m considering:

Tachihara – Large Format Film (For portability in field)
Cambo Wide DS – DB
Contax – DB
Phase One/Mamiya – DB
Hasselblad H4D 30
Alpa 12 TC - DB
Pentax 645z or 645d

What I like to shoot: Landscape, Portrait, Model, Minimal, Night/City Scape, Still Life, Macro & Action
Why MF? The look/feel of medium format seems exceptional beyond what I’ve been able to produce within the limitations of my gear. I particularly like to be able to capture the detail and crop photographs that aren’t framed perfectly. I’m hoping to capture greater depth of contrast, and fine detail sharpness.

Some Questions:
1.    What is the difference between technical setup (Cambo) vs Medium Format, why do niche photographers go technical?
2.   Should Lenses be my focus, and I should be looking at older Digital Backs (within my price range) like the P20’s?
3.   Given that sometimes I like to go into the field for a few days, is technical even an option?
4.   Given my broad range of what I like to shoot, should I be looking for the most flexible system?
5.   Why do the H Digital Backs seem less expensive second hand?
7.   I feel like having an exceptional set up sets a photographer apart from the competition, but part of me thinks I have a lot to learn and should wait for a year or so before making a huge depreciating investment.

douglevy · « **Reply #1 on:** July 31, 2014, 04:08:17 pm »

You should see if you can test/try them out. And try and narrow your "specialties" - you did say, "what I like to shoot" though. My question is, what do you get paid to shoot? Where's your ROI? I get paid to shoot portraits and weddings, and bought an H1 and new Credo40 with the 80 and 120mm lenses, which go well with where I make my living. If you're just starting out - and when you're buying any kind of gear, I'd encourage you to think, "What's the ROI on this?" and "I really want to be able to make x photo that I can't without y." Let those two factors guide your decisions vs. other factors.

-Doug

maddogmurph · « **Reply #2 on:** July 31, 2014, 04:33:13 pm »

Quote from: douglevy on July 31, 2014, 04:08:17 pm

You should see if you can test/try them out. And try and narrow your "specialties" - you did say, "what I like to shoot" though. My question is, what do you get paid to shoot? Where's your ROI? I get paid to shoot portraits and weddings, and bought an H1 and new Credo40 with the 80 and 120mm lenses, which go well with where I make my living. If you're just starting out - and when you're buying any kind of gear, I'd encourage you to think, "What's the ROI on this?" and "I really want to be able to make x photo that I can't without y." Let those two factors guide your decisions vs. other factors.

-Doug

Thank you Doug, currently there is no ROI. I have no clients, I'm simply setting up, and investing in, what will hopefully become a paying job that I also enjoy.

douglevy · « **Reply #3 on:** July 31, 2014, 04:36:09 pm »

In that case, I'd probably recommend sticking with the Fuji system (great system). Starting a new business is probably not the best time to invest in MFD. It took my business 5 years to get to the point where it was worth it/clients demanded that level of quality. I obviously don't know your finances, but unless you have 6 months of emergency funds on top of a healthy business, I think you're better off spending the $ on marketing, classes, personal work, a faster computer (to save you time) etc. etc.

Ken R · « **Reply #4 on:** July 31, 2014, 04:56:00 pm »

Quote from: maddogmurph on July 31, 2014, 03:59:35 pm

I’m considering investing under $12,000. What I hope to accomplish with this investment is to begin a career in photography, which is currently a hobby.

My current system is the Fuji X-T1 which I don’t plan to get rid of and love for reasons I won’t go into here.
I also currently have a rail camera I have not used yet – Calumet with a few lenses I’ll be pulling out of my grandfather’s basement in a couple weeks and an Epson 4990 for scanning film to Digital.

The systems I’m considering:

Tachihara – Large Format Film (For portability in field)
Cambo Wide DS – DB
Contax – DB
Phase One/Mamiya – DB
Hasselblad H4D 30
Alpa 12 TC - DB
Pentax 645z or 645d

What I like to shoot: Landscape, Portrait, Model, Minimal, Night/City Scape, Still Life, Macro & Action In your price range I strongly suggest a DSLR. DSLRs are extremely versatile, with medium format unless you go for the most recent 50MP CMOS systems there is always a compromise be it poor high iso performance, long exposure performance etc. And no MF SLR camera has the AF performance of a DSLR (35mm) Most of us that own Medium Format Digital have multiple systems for that reason
Why MF? The look/feel of medium format seems exceptional beyond what I’ve been able to produce within the limitations of my gear. I particularly like to be able to capture the detail and crop photographs that aren’t framed perfectly. I’m hoping to capture greater depth of contrast, and fine detail sharpness. Again, In your price range I strongly suggest a DSLR (35mm). To handily beat a camera like a D810 in regards to detail under a wide range of conditions you really need one of the better and more $ Medium Format Digital systems

Some Questions:
1.    What is the difference between technical setup (Cambo) vs Medium Format, why do niche photographers go technical?
2.   Should Lenses be my focus, and I should be looking at older Digital Backs (within my price range) like the P20’s?
3.   Given that sometimes I like to go into the field for a few days, is technical even an option?
4.   Given my broad range of what I like to shoot, should I be looking for the most flexible system?
5.   Why do the H Digital Backs seem less expensive second hand?
7.   I feel like having an exceptional set up sets a photographer apart from the competition, but part of me thinks I have a lot to learn and should wait for a year or so before making a huge depreciating investment. Quality of work (including post-production), work ethic, client relations, self-promotion and service will set you apart, not your gear

All that said a Medium Format Digital back is a great piece of gear to have. It is versatile in the sense that you can mount it in a wide range of platforms, from tech cameras to SLRs like the PhaseOne/Mamiya bodies, Hasselblad H bodies, Contax and Hasselblad V among others. But not all backs are the same there is a HUGE range in price, quality, performance and user experience. Hence, it's best to work with a dealer (I use DigitalTransitions in NY) unless you REALLY know your stuff already, in which case you would not be asking in this forum in the first place!

DanielStone · « **Reply #5 on:** July 31, 2014, 05:42:38 pm »

Quote from: douglevy on July 31, 2014, 04:36:09 pm

In that case, I'd probably recommend sticking with the Fuji system (great system). Starting a new business is probably not the best time to invest in MFD. It took my business 5 years to get to the point where it was worth it/clients demanded that level of quality. I obviously don't know your finances, but unless you have 6 months of emergency funds on top of a healthy business, I think you're better off spending the $ on marketing, classes, personal work, a faster computer (to save you time) etc. etc.

Dear OP,

I'd read this succint reply from Doug VERY CAREFULLY. Read it aloud, until you know it by heart. Having nice/expensive tools is great, and many here might say "ya mate, go MF!". Pay special attention to the reference to a 6mo emergency fund, preferably 1yr's worth.

-Dan

paul ross jones · « **Reply #6 on:** July 31, 2014, 07:26:06 pm »

i second the opinion of having a dslr like a d800 or sony a7r. you have a whole lot of different areas of photography you want to do- so no one camera is going to be perfect.

as for locking down a "medium format look", i doubt you would be able to tell what was shot on medium format of not on my website (www.paulrossjones.com). i have been shooting medium format for years with leaf, and phase backs on both hasselblads and contax and i struggle to see the difference between what i shoot on canon/nikon and medium format.
my retoucher prefers medium format (my last camera back was a p65+) as the files are large and reasonably clean with a bit better dynamic range, but a well planned/exposed, well graded dslr file file i think is indistinguishable. and file size is large enough now that a dslr is file is big enough for billboards and fussy magazine dps's- i have shots many international campaigns now with my canon and haven't even got my contax/p65 out of its case.

and given the cost and hassle of medium format, i don't think its worth it unless you have a specialty that justifies it. i am not going to bother with medium format anymore for my work- mainly lifestyle, as i believe that missing a shot is worse than a little less quality- and at the one frame a second and very slow focus with my contax/p65+ i lost many good opportunities.

just my opinion.

paul

p.s i did have a play with a pentax 645z the other day, and that shoots as fast a dslr. if they work out a fast tether solution with this then i think maybe this is something worth considering.
but if i was starting out again- i would spend 11k on my portfolio and promotion- if you have the right work you will get hired- and can hire gear if you want to on the jobs. a camera won't get you jobs, but a great book will.

douglevy · « **Reply #7 on:** July 31, 2014, 07:36:24 pm »

Wow. Paul. Killer work.

Martin Ranger · « **Reply #8 on:** July 31, 2014, 07:40:05 pm »

Quote from: douglevy on July 31, 2014, 04:36:09 pm

In that case, I'd probably recommend sticking with the Fuji system (great system). Starting a new business is probably not the best time to invest in MFD. It took my business 5 years to get to the point where it was worth it/clients demanded that level of quality. I obviously don't know your finances, but unless you have 6 months of emergency funds on top of a healthy business, I think you're better off spending the $ on marketing, classes, personal work, a faster computer (to save you time) etc. etc.

I wholeheartedly agree. The Fuji system is good enough for a lot of commercial photography. I have shot fashion, portraits and lifestyle with it, without any problems. Once you have figured out which area of photography people are willing to pay you for, you can decide what camera is best suited for it (like Paul said, no camera can do it all). The A7r, for example, would give you high resolution and access to a lot of lenses, but its AF may be too slow, and tethering options not good enough.

bcooter · « **Reply #9 on:** July 31, 2014, 08:06:14 pm »

Quote from: maddogmurph on July 31, 2014, 03:59:35 pm

I’m considering ............

Nobody can really tell you what to do, but early in your career, content, concept, is much more important than megapixel counting, dr measuring technique.

Lighting, composition and post production are also important, but from a 5d2 to a d800 the difference in portfolio prints or websites is not that important.

As everyone mentions, once you get running, if a project requires a specialty camera you can easily rent it and later buy if you use the system more than you previously did.

Personally, I'd go with a one grade back dslr, nikon or canon, either 5d2 or used d800 a few used primes.

The reason nikon/canon is the market is flooded with used bodies, lenses and you can rent anywhere. Also the ability to have a full frame for stills gives you more options on focus and composition.

In other words, invest in developing your style, your art first, save your money for cameras later.

Even with your fuji, I doubt seriously if the camera is holding you back.

Your only as good as what you put in front on the lens and of course what you do with it.

IMO

BC

Joe Towner · « **Reply #10 on:** July 31, 2014, 09:46:51 pm »

Let me tag on with everyone else and say that investing in digital MF gear isn't a way to build a business. Clients hire based on what you can show them you can do, and showing them lots of stuff from Fuji/FF gear is going to be more than enough to get you hired. By spending the money wisely on personal projects, you'll have a larger body of work to show, rather than putting the money into a digital solution that you don't need off hand. Yes, rental is an option, and depending on what you shoot and how you shoot it, $3-4k should get you a body, 2-3 lenses, and a few speed lights. Shoot what you have, shoot something new, but shoot and market yourself locally and regionally.

You're in the Bay Area, there are lots of other photographers there you can chat with. Find out what you like to shoot that pays. Understand there is competition around you, find out what sets you apart from them. Some folks swear they can do it all with Fuji gear - and you can (lots of MF film options from Fuji).

ErikKaffehr · « **Reply #11 on:** August 01, 2014, 01:30:12 pm »

Yep!

Erik

Quote from: douglevy on July 31, 2014, 07:36:24 pm

Wow. Paul. Killer work.

maddogmurph · « **Reply #12 on:** August 01, 2014, 01:49:03 pm »

Quote from: bcooter on July 31, 2014, 08:06:14 pm

Personally, I'd go with a one grade back dslr, nikon or canon, either 5d2 or used d800 a few used primes. Given that I have the X-T1, you'd still say grab a full frame?

The reason nikon/canon is the market is flooded with used bodies, lenses and you can rent anywhere. Also the ability to have a full frame for stills gives you more options on focus and composition. Honestly, I feel like the Nikon/Cannon systems are overpriced for the value - why spend $1,500 on a camera, and $3-4,000 on a Lens system when I have the X-T1 setup, and a Mamiya with a P25+ and an 80mm is going for $3,000 - or a Pentax 645D and lens is running $4,000 on ebay

Even with your fuji, I doubt seriously if the camera is holding you back. You're correct that currently my Fuji is not holding me back, yet.

Also I feel like my #1 question is sort of being ignored, but I'm also grateful for the wonderful feedback and advice. I really am curious about the difference between MF DSLR and Technical, what niche' does this fulfill, or what do they know that I don't?

Advice considered I think I'm going to just work on this system for a while, build up my portfolio and website, and go from there.

I'm still curious what you would spend your $12,000 on and why if medium format was your primary interest.

Steve Hendrix · « **Reply #13 on:** August 01, 2014, 02:11:45 pm »

Quote from: maddogmurph on August 01, 2014, 01:49:03 pm

Also I feel like my #1 question is sort of being ignored, but I'm also grateful for the wonderful feedback and advice. I really am curious about the difference between MF DSLR and Technical, what niche' does this fulfill, or what do they know that I don't?

Advice considered I think I'm going to just work on this system for a while, build up my portfolio and website, and go from there.

I'm still curious what you would spend your $12,000 on and why if medium format was your primary interest.

Maddog -

You listed such a wide range of photographic pursuits that surpass what a niche camera would excel at. A tech camera is used - typically - for landscape or architectural use. The reason being that what it excels at and facilitates is what those applications require. Perspective correction, capability to expand into the image circle either for large movements or stitched captures for panoramics. And all with an ease of use and level of quality that is pretty unique. You could use a tech cam for *still life*macro*portrait*model*, as you listed, but it is not necessarily the best tool for these pursuits. While for landscape/architecture, it is a uniquely exceptional tool.

Steve Hendrix
Capture Integration

ErikKaffehr · « **Reply #14 on:** August 01, 2014, 02:16:16 pm »

Hi,

A technical camera has no mirror box, so more lenses can be used. Some lenses may be exceptionally good.

Technical cameras do differ. Some are focused using a loupe on focusing screen and some with precision helicoids in combination with a laser distance meter (You measure distance with the "disto" and dial in on the helicoid.). Most technical cameras allow for tilting/shifting the lens. A technical camera can be very compact.

The main advantage of technical cameras over DSLRs are (in my view):

- They offer large amount of tilt and shift
- Some lenses may be better. Schneider and Rodenstock make some very nice lenses.

It is quite possible to use SLR lenses on technical cameras. Systems like Hartblei HCam and Alpa FPS allow this.

With the arrival of CMOS to MFD many of these systems may be much more usable. Unfortunately, only the Phase One IQ and the Pentax 645Z offer live view on MFD right now (OK, Hasselblad has it too, if shooting tethered). This may change soon.

On the other hand, a few technical cameras making use of the Sony A7r has been announced. Another interesting concept.

It is really simple. If you happen:

- To have something like 40kUSD to spend
- Want to have the best image quality
- Shoot on tripod and work very carefully
- You know what you are doing

Than, a technical camera is the tool for you.

If you don't have those 40kUSD to spend, a technical camera may still be the best for you.

Now, this view comes from a SLR user with no experience of technical cameras. The closest I come is using a Hasselblad Flexbody with a P45+. It works fine in the lab, but it doesn't work with the subject/lens combo I wanted to use. Things are seldom simple in real life…

Best regards
Erik

Quote from: maddogmurph on August 01, 2014, 01:49:03 pm

Also I feel like my #1 question is sort of being ignored, but I'm also grateful for the wonderful feedback and advice. I really am curious about the difference between MF DSLR and Technical, what niche' does this fulfill, or what do they know that I don't?

Advice considered I think I'm going to just work on this system for a while, build up my portfolio and website, and go from there.

I'm still curious what you would spend your $12,000 on and why if medium format was your primary interest.

Justinr · « **Reply #15 on:** August 01, 2014, 02:26:35 pm »

+1 to all those who suggest a good dSLR instead. MF is a completely different way of shooting and you have to slow right down, but if you do really want to try it then Mamiyas are around at sensible prices if you are buying, terrible if you are selling.

eronald · « **Reply #16 on:** August 01, 2014, 02:44:19 pm »

I think your Fuji is good enough to start out with - you might hire a D800 on jobs. Frankly, there is nothing which *cannot* be done with Canon or Nikon system cameras and absolutely requires MF.
MF is expensive to equip, exigent in lighting because of low ISO, less forgiving of exposure problems, more difficult to use handheld, lacking in autofocus aids, and even harder to process because of large files; stay away from this until you really know what you are doing.

Edmund

Quote from: maddogmurph on July 31, 2014, 03:59:35 pm

I’m considering investing under $12,000. What I hope to accomplish with this investment is to begin a career in photography, which is currently a hobby.

My current system is the Fuji X-T1 which I don’t plan to get rid of and love for reasons I won’t go into here.
I also currently have a rail camera I have not used yet – Calumet with a few lenses I’ll be pulling out of my grandfather’s basement in a couple weeks and an Epson 4990 for scanning film to Digital.

The systems I’m considering:

Tachihara – Large Format Film (For portability in field)
Cambo Wide DS – DB
Contax – DB
Phase One/Mamiya – DB
Hasselblad H4D 30
Alpa 12 TC - DB
Pentax 645z or 645d

What I like to shoot: Landscape, Portrait, Model, Minimal, Night/City Scape, Still Life, Macro & Action
Why MF? The look/feel of medium format seems exceptional beyond what I’ve been able to produce within the limitations of my gear. I particularly like to be able to capture the detail and crop photographs that aren’t framed perfectly. I’m hoping to capture greater depth of contrast, and fine detail sharpness.

Some Questions:
1.    What is the difference between technical setup (Cambo) vs Medium Format, why do niche photographers go technical?
2.   Should Lenses be my focus, and I should be looking at older Digital Backs (within my price range) like the P20’s?
3.   Given that sometimes I like to go into the field for a few days, is technical even an option?
4.   Given my broad range of what I like to shoot, should I be looking for the most flexible system?
5.   Why do the H Digital Backs seem less expensive second hand?
7.   I feel like having an exceptional set up sets a photographer apart from the competition, but part of me thinks I have a lot to learn and should wait for a year or so before making a huge depreciating investment.

MrSmith · « **Reply #17 on:** August 01, 2014, 05:35:15 pm »

Even if you had a tech cam/mfd set-up you really would be better off having a 35mm based system too.
You must have a back-up system in place if you are a working professional unless a rental house is 15min away.
Also as you wish to be doing different kinds of photography a lot of which are easier to shoot on systems other than technical/mfd.
I'll also echo what others have said. If your work lacks quality nobody is going to get to see what system you shoot on.

SethDAugust · « **Reply #18 on:** August 01, 2014, 08:44:47 pm »

I like my Hasselblad system a lot but never use it as I'm doing a lot of high volume commercial work now. Feels amazing when I shoot it though.

dzeanah · « **Reply #19 on:** August 01, 2014, 11:17:39 pm »

I'm hesitant to reply here because I don't shoot professionally any more. I ran the numbers on photography versus other options while I was getting my MBA and didn't call myself a professional photographer a week later...

Anyway, I think you're coming at this backward. It seems to me that equipment should be purchased for a particular purpose (after determining that buying makes more sense than renting), and you don't have a particular purpose yet. Even worse, this isn't twenty years ago when you could buy high-quality used gear and resell it for around the same price a few years later -- this stuff depreciates fast.

I don't see any advantage to buying expensive gear now. Pick it up after you can justify it (and by "justify" I mean "I need XXXXX in order to land a job I've lined up that pays $YYYY, and I can't rent the required equipment for some small fraction of $Y." Find the work first. If there are things you need to do to land the work (put together a great portfolio, develop business skills, whatever) then do that before you commit to serious five figure expenses.

Author Topic: Best System for Under $12K (Read 15235 times)

MrSmith