New Imaging PC needed, but I have a few questions as I do the research...

[michael_mutmansky]

Folks,

I'm planning to build a new computer for LR and also PS primarily.  Almost no other computing needs for this machine...

I've been on a Mac Pro for the past 6+ years, and it has worked out very well, but I can't justify the expense of a new Mac Pro, and the other Apple models look insufficient for what I want, so I think it's time to go back to a PC.

I read the thread a bit down the page with recommendations on equipment, and have read other discussions and articles, so I am getting up to speed on the details for a PC machine.

However, I have one issue that I wanted to ask people about.  I feel like my current Mac Pro is now a bit of a Rube Goldberg machine.  It has had new harddrives added, some swapped, etc. and all of the HD slots are occupied. That got me thinking that maybe I should move to an external HD array of some kind, rather than placing all the storage in the computer box.  Does this make sense? What would be a good approach to doing this.  USB3 seem too slow, getting an external eSATA connector and drive array seems like a good approach, plus maybe Thunderbolt as an option?

My feeling is that I want the storage to be readily expandable and taking this approach will permit this better than in the computer box.

Any thoughts on this?

I'll post a bit more on specific hardware in a little bit, once I've gotten a bit more of a plan together.


Thanks,


---Michael

[Alan Goldhammer]

There have been some recent threads on PC specifications within the last six months or so.  A couple of questions:  what is your budget?  how much storage capacity do you need? how much do you use Photoshop?

I think ASUS has some new motherboards out that have Thunderbolt ports on them.  I'm pretty much using USB 3.0 and don't find it to be problematic in any way but I don't do photography for a living.  I did build a new workstation last year and have been quite happy with it.  Big difference for me was moving up to a USB 3.0 card reader which is much faster on the download.

[michael_mutmansky]

Alan,

I didn't want to get into the specifics of a machine too early, which is why I didn't mention a specific budget. I figure spending about $1500 on a machine (only, without monitors or the external HD array) should put me in a very good place for now and into the future.

I do not shoot weddings or any commercial work, so I don't have a large volume of images to handle, but I do still have LF film scans and stitched images to contend with, and some of those files can be pretty large at times. My digital cameras are 24MP and 36MP.

I have about 2.5 TB in the current MacPro and I am starting to run out of space. I want a much larger array with some redundancy (not necessarily in that specific array, it could be a NAS for a weekly backup). I currently have a Synology NAS that I use for my audio files, for access by the house audio system, so I a familiar with that kind of implementation.

I found what looks like a reasonable starting point for discussion in this blog:

Here

It links to a set of parts. Here for parts.

Obviously, this doesn't address the external HD array issue, so mods would be needed for that. Regardless of the specifics at this point, I think it looks like a reasonable place for me to start thinking about the hardware items.

For example, I expect that 16GB of RAM is sufficient, but I suspect that the 2GB on the video card may be somewhat overkill. I'd probably want slightly larger SS HDs in the machine for the boot/software and cache. Could handle a smaller HD for files if I am going to the external disk array.

Here is a link to what may be a reasonable disk array.  As I said, I don't think I'd make this redundant. Probably use a separate array for all the backups.


---Michael

[Rory]

I'm in the same boat Michael, and I'll be interested in how this thread progresses.  I kind of like the look of this.

[kers]

...
I found what looks like a reasonable starting point for discussion in this blog:
Here
...

Just a thought:
If i look at the list Roberto Blake produces it reminds me of the specs of the fully loaded iMac.
This Imac is as fast as the latest MacPro for photoshop and even is faster for video in some cases because of the different (core i7)  and more up to date processor. ( Xeon always are behind)
If you have read the rumors a 4K iMac is probably comming soon. Your HD's could be connected through thunderbolt.
On the other hand - i work for two years with my old 2008 Macpro and 1 gig images and have no problem at all- i made it as fast as possible and have 32gig ram- all being used by the system for programs or cache (Mavericks)

[Alan Goldhammer]

Michael,

I just took a look at the links you posted and they make pretty good sense.  Some observations:

1) I would bump the RAM up to 32GB since you work with large files and this will really help with PS; I'm partial to Crucial RAM
2) I would increase the size of the SSDs both OS/Program and PS scratch to 256 GB as this will give you more room.  Samsung Pro line are very good and what I use in all my builds
3) I don't care for Coolermaster cases and prefer Fractal Designs as they have lots of room to build in and are very quiet (which is key for me since my work station sits 18 inches away from me on my desk top.  I have their Arc Midi R2 which has room for 8 HDD/SSDs
4) For CPU coolers, I'm now looking at the CRYORIG line as they have very good performance characteristics and the best and easiest mounting hardware that I've seen
5) I've had very good luck with either ASUS or Gigabyte mother boards and don't see any reason to change (though this is largely one of personal preference).  If you are not going to overclock your CPU (and there really is no reason to for photo applications) don't pay extra for a 'Z X9' mother board
6) The power supply that he chose is not as good as other options and you certainly don't need that much power if you are just running a single graphics card.  The Seasonic G550 is rock solid and 'Gold' rated; a better choice
7) Current Intel i7 Haswell CPUs are all quad core but a new line is coming out later this year that have 6 or 8 cores.  Of course these will be more expensive and I'm unsure whether the performance will be all that noticeable for routine PS work.  If you do decide to wait make sure that the new motherboards are also available.

Those would be my thoughts.

Alan

[michael_mutmansky]

Thanks for the comments...

I agree about the larger SSDs and also the PS in there.  Overall, he has spec'd this out as a pretty inexpensive machine, and he may have compromised on quality of products a bit more than I would prefer.

I am probably going to get a Gigabyte board. I am seriously considering building a Hackentosh machine, and then putting a VM or Parallels on it for the (rare) times when I need Windows for my scanner (no support in recent Mac OS).  The GB boards are pretty comfortable in Hackentosh mode, and I will avoid the whole Windows virus issues for the most part.

I want this thing to be the quietest possible, so I will definitely look into better cases.  Thanks for the recommendation.


---Michael

[tastar]

I would use an i7-4790K CPU rather than an i7-3820 - it's about $45.00 more, and much higher performance - cpubenchmark.net benchmark of 11,423 vs. 9017. I would also get the boxed version - Intel part number BX80646I74790K - which includes the heat sink and fan, and a 3 year Intel warranty.

This CPU is a socket LGA1150, so you'll need to pick a different motherboard. A nice one with built-in Thunderbolt is an Intel DZ87KLT-75K, and also has a 3 year warranty. Without Thunderbolt, I would still stick with Intel - like the BOXDH87MC. I would guess that if you do performance testing on Intel boards, they won't be at the top of the pile. But, our experience is that they are very reliable.

And an Antec P100 case - relatively cheap, very quiet, power supply (not included) at the bottom and very simple, clean lines. A better quality version of this is the Antec P280.

Finally, I would use Window 7 Pro 64-bit for the operating system, probably because I just don't like the stuff that you'll find at a big box store (although all of those will be Windows 8 rather than Windows 7 Home Premium).

Tony

[michael_mutmansky]

Tony,

Thanks for the note.  I agree with the upgraded CPU.  It doesn't cost much more, and will produce more performance (in theory, extending the useful life of the machine possibly).

I'll look at the Intel boards a bit and see what I can learn about them.

I also agree about Windows 7... not about to put 8 on a machine.


---Michael

[michael_mutmansky]

SO, A CHANGE OF PLANS...

I decided that I didn't want to part with my machine just yet, so I have started the wheels turning to update it a bit.

1.  I'm updating the CPU to dual Xeon 3.0mhz Quad core (up from 2.66 Duo core)
2.  I'm replacing some of the HDs in the machine with SSD.  One for boot disk and apps.  One for scratch disk. I'll pull out two drives to do that.
3.  I'm going to add a USB3 card to the machine to permit a high speed disk array.  I'm still doing the research on which card will work best in the Mac Pro 1.1 and 10.7.5 (plus older, I have this set up as dual-boot for 10.5.x for some older software needs).

I have 16 gig of RAM in it, so that is probably good for a while longer.
I have an upgraded video card from when I purchased it, but it may benefit from an upgrade as well. We'll see once I have the other things done.  I don't do much but PS and LR, so there isn't a lot that will be tapping the card memory.

I still need to figure out the external HD storage array that makes the most sense.  I was originally thinking that I would get a 4-bay RAID array that could handle RAID 10 so I have redundancy in the box.  I'm not sure this makes complete sense, but I think it does.  That will avoid the need to regularly produce a back up in another box somewhere in the event that one of the drives fails.

I was thinking of something like this:

http://eshop.macsales.com/item/OWC/M3QX2KIT0GB/



---Michael

[Ajoy Roy]

I have been assembling windows machines for more than 15 years. As long as you can diagnose and repair your system it is fine, else buying a system from mainstream manufacturer with extended warranty makes more sense. When I assembled my last system, it had a configuration of the latest Xeon based Mac, but I spent 60%. When you consider the amount of time required to assemble and maintain the system if it fails, the 40% saved is not much.

For storage, I think that it is time you thought of external storage solution. There are many options
. eSATA
. NAS on 1G Ethernet
. High end Fiber channel SAN storage

https://www.google.co.in/search?q=network+attached+storage&num=100&client=firefox-a&hs=1Wa&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=nts&tbm=isch&imgil=XtHBekACHIXCLM%253A%253B6VWbEDu0zPiECM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.networkcomputing.com%25252Fstorage%25252Fslideshow-network-attached-storage%25252Fd%25252Fd-id%25252F1091256%25253F&source=iu&usg=__Ek6vJumpDJmKT3UTfwTSexkXSCo%3D&sa=X&ei=D2rrU9aDM83n8AXuh4DwBg&ved=0CEwQ9QEwAw&biw=1323&bih=1093

http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/in/xoffers/storage.html?cmp=215es&ct=215es02w&cr=google&cm=k&csot=-&ccy=in&cpb=-&cd=2012-07-31&ck=network_attach_storage&cs=exact_match&csr=s_storage_-_generic&cot=a&cpg=ofng&cn=network_storage&csz=&mkwid=sa9AKyWjt-dc_25135938027_432qtl2594&gclid=Cj0KEQjwmayfBRDo25CR9un4hvEBEiQAv9fBbSpLtEaHmbu6eujECItPx0OJMomZFlKpfY0g5FZob9YaAn8Q8P8HAQ


Just Google up on available external storage solutions. I would get a box that can accommodate at least 16 devices, so that you keep adding disks when ever you are short of space. The external storage works with most of the OS - Windows, Linux, Apple to name a few.

Regrading System,
. if you want a reliable and long lasting system, think of Xeon base 2 socket systems. I built a dual Xeon system more than five years ago, and it still rocks.
. Use Workstation or Server MB. They are built to last even as they run 24x7. My MB is by Tyan.
. If you use multiple monitors (I have 3), then get a hefty PS. I have a 1000W one.
. Get the best Graphics card you can afford to drive your monitors.
. Avoid overclocking and external cooling. Simple fan based cooling works best in the long run, and is trouble free. Additional cooling can give you boost in speed, but if any thing goes wrong, your MB/CPU is fried. It is fine for data centres where there are dedicated personell to cjeck, but a home computer should require minimum maintenance effort.

[michael_mutmansky]

Thanks for the comments Ajoy Roy,

I first built a Windows machine in 1990, so I've been around the block a bit too. It's easier than ever to do it, but more complicated to decide on the parts in my opinion.

However, I have decided to update my Mac Pro and run it for a while longer.  That avoids me having to get PS-CC, which I absolutely detest the premise of, and will probably leave Adobe if I am forced into that in the future. It may be the way of all software, but I don't want any part of it right now.

So the Mac Pro 1,1 is getting upgraded considerably, and it'll last me for a while longer with the new performance.

---Michael

[Ajoy Roy]

Thanks for the comments Ajoy Roy,

I first built a Windows machine in 1990, so I've been around the block a bit too. It's easier than ever to do it, but more complicated to decide on the parts in my opinion.

However, I have decided to update my Mac Pro and run it for a while longer.  That avoids me having to get PS-CC, which I absolutely detest the premise of, and will probably leave Adobe if I am forced into that in the future. It may be the way of all software, but I don't want any part of it right now.

So the Mac Pro 1,1 is getting upgraded considerably, and it'll last me for a while longer with the new performance.

---Michael

Do give a serious thought to external storage - NAS or SAN. With time storage needs will go up, so planning for and getting an external OS independent storage will be necessary. I am also thinking of it, as at home we have two Mac Books, two Lenovo Laptops and two desktops - time to centralize storage requirements.