Gaza's on-going Palestinian civilians Killing

[BernardLanguillier]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ACgwr2Nj_GQ

Cheers,
Bernard

[Jim Pascoe]

Yes, I saw the film yesterday as well.  Jon Snow is a brilliant journalist and brings home the realities of the situation in Gaza.  Heartbreaking - but I do not know there is any easy solution.  All I know is that what is happening is wrong......

Jim

[RSL]

Hi Jim, Actually there IS an easy solution. All Hamas has to do is stop sending rockets into Israel. That'll stop the whole thing. But history tells us that that's not likely to happen.

[Jeremy Roussak]

Hi Jim, Actually there IS an easy solution. All Hamas has to do is stop sending rockets into Israel. That'll stop the whole thing. But history tells us that that's not likely to happen.

And you sure as hell won't hear anything along those lines from Jon Snow. For some balance, see here.

Jeremy

[Chairman Bill]

Hi Jim, Actually there IS an easy solution. All Hamas has to do is stop sending rockets into Israel. That'll stop the whole thing. But history tells us that that's not likely to happen.

And if Israel allowed the Palestinian people to live in decent circumstances, stopped the illegal settlement of Palestinian land & all the rest of it, maybe fewer Palestinians would feel like firing loads of largely ineffectual rockets into Israel. Like you said, there is an easy solution, but when it's a complex question, the simple answer is usually the wrong one.

Part of me is inclined to say 'a plague on both your houses', but another part simply wants people to stop killing one another. Thing is, there's no easy answer to this mess.

[RSL]

People have been killing one another since Cain and Abel, Bill. It's not going to stop as long as there continue to be sixth-century religious fanatics and revanchist Russians in the world. I'm not sure where you get the idea that there was an "illegal settlement of Palestinian land." If that's true then there were a flock of "illegal settlements" following WW I and WW II. Only one of those settlements seems to get the label "illegal" from the world's talking heads. It was the Kurds who took the brunt of "illegal" land distributions, not the Palestinians.

[BernardLanguillier]

Hi Jim, Actually there IS an easy solution. All Hamas has to do is stop sending rockets into Israel. That'll stop the whole thing. But history tells us that that's not likely to happen.

Anyway you look at it Israel is the historical agressor in Gaza.

Today they are the ones deciding hour after hour to kill Palestinian children. On purpose.

Is Hamas innocent? No, they are not, but sticking a terrorist naming to them doesn't reduce the least bit the atrocious nature of what Israel, and the people supporting their positions, are doing/letting them do.

Cheers,
Bernard

[David Anderson]

IMHO, the Palestinians should stop lobbing those useless rockets and engage a good PR firm.
They will never win in combat with Israel, but the battle for hearts & minds would be a cake walk.
The next thing they need is stable, unified government - that's the tough one. 

[RSL]

Anyway you look at it Israel is the historical agressor in Gaza.

You're living in Japan. If the South Koreans kept lobbing rockets into the area where you live, trying, by the way, to kill as many civilians as possible, and Japan finally started shooting back, would you consider Japan to be the "historical agressor?"

[Vladimirovich]

All Hamas has to do is stop sending rockets into Israel.

and then what ? Israel is not going to accept a two state solution, etc... stopping rockets does not stimulate occupying power

[Vladimirovich]

And if Israel allowed the Palestinian people to live in decent circumstances, stopped the illegal settlement of Palestinian land & all the rest of it, maybe fewer Palestinians would feel like firing loads of largely ineffectual rockets into Israel. Like you said, there is an easy solution, but when it's a complex question, the simple answer is usually the wrong one.

Part of me is inclined to say 'a plague on both your houses', but another part simply wants people to stop killing one another. Thing is, there's no easy answer to this mess.

at least Israel could strike a separate deal with West Bank part (agree to two state, remove settlements there, etc) and and let Gaza watch West Bank - how well it could be w/o Hamas, but no... too greedy.

[Vladimirovich]

You're living in Japan. If the South Koreans kept lobbing rockets into the area where you live, trying, by the way, to kill as many civilians as possible, and Japan finally started shooting back, would you consider Japan to be the "historical agressor?"

it is a typical israeli-lobby-invented false anology... because you know Japan now does not (in a current state) prevent South Korea from obtaining a statehood, does not settle their land with new Japanese settlements, etc, etc... but when Japan was an occupying power (for Korea among some other countries) if you remember US nuked couple of their cities and that (among other actions) facilitated Koreans to obtain their statehood, regardless of Japanese wishes.

[Vladimirovich]

IMHO, the Palestinians should stop lobbing those useless rockets and engage a good PR firm.
They will never win in combat with Israel, but the battle for hearts & minds would be a cake walk.

the point is not to win a combat, but to corner the occupants into a no win situation for themselves.

[Schewe]

Hi Jim, Actually there IS an easy solution. All Hamas has to do is stop sending rockets into Israel. That'll stop the whole thing. But history tells us that that's not likely to happen.

Well, it really isn't so easy...unless you understand the history of the middle east and the struggles between Sunni & Shiite Muslims and how that impacts Jews and Christian in the middle east, you really can't arrive at an easy solution.

Hamas is a radical terrorist organization funded by Saudi Arabia which is in long standing bitter fight with Shiite Muslims (since Mohammed wrote the Quran). The Shia–Sunni problems go back to battles caused after Mohammed's death. The Palestinians have been used by both sides of the Shia–Sunni conflict...

Israel is not an innocent bystander in the conflict but it is also a victim. So is the USA...

Most people don't know the history of the US vs. radical Islamists...the US has been at war with radical Islamists since Thomas Jefferson was President. He was the first President to field a navy to fight Islamist pirates off the coast of what is now Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya. Outposts of the Ottoman Empire.

Back in Jeffersons presidency, radical Islamists following the mandate of killing infidels used piracy in the Mediterranean Sea to steal goods being shipped to Europe. At the behest of shipping companies, Jefferson armed the first US navy to go over to the Mediterranean Sea to protect US ships and fight radical Islamists. That started the Barbary Wars.

The first armed ships carried "Marines" that carried out attacks on pirate bases. In the Marine hymn, the term "to the shores or Tripoli" is mentioned...that would be Tripoli in Libya. The term "leather necks" came into play because the Marines were outfitted with leather collars to make it harder for the Islamists to behead the Marines with scimitars...

The "West" has been at war with Islamists since the early 1800's.

England is also not without fault in the Middle East...boundaries were drawn though out the Middle East that were "convenient" but totally screwed up tradition tribal/religious boundaries...

There's no question that the middle east is totally screwed up...look at Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Yemen, and all the "countries" in the region. The countries are all artificial and that has lead to long standing conflict (thanks to England).

There will be no peace until radical Islamists quit trying to kill infidels (any non-Muslim religion including Jews & Christian). Heck, even trying to get Shia–Sunni Muslims to talk is impossible let alone Jews and Christians.

Sorry, but this is a much deeper historic conflict than what sadly is going on in Gaza at the moment. I only caution people here on LuLa to to be very, very careful picking sides and it's a far more complicated discussion that what I've seen here so far.

Muslims (non-Islamists) must seize control of their religion and stop the radical Islamists from taking control...I had hopes during the Arab Spring....but sadly, many Muslims were too terrified to stand up and reject the radicals. Can't say I blame them...the middle east is a really tough place where the value of human life is vastly under valued.

Just really grateful I live in the USA...

[BernardLanguillier]

You're living in Japan. If the South Koreans kept lobbing rockets into the area where you live, trying, by the way, to kill as many civilians as possible, and Japan finally started shooting back, would you consider Japan to be the "historical agressor?"

Although the global situation in the middle East if very complex, what we have in front of us is extremely simple and no amount of wicked rhetoric will change that.

Every hours that passes by, the Israeli gov has the option to stop bombing or to continue bombing. Every time they decide to continue bombing, they are de facto deciding to kill innocent children on top of the hundreds they have already murdered these past 2 weeks.

Those who have an influence on the Isreali government and are not succeeding in making them stop have blood on their hands too.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Vladimirovich]

the US has been at war with radical Islamists since Thomas Jefferson was President

how typical - instead of emancipating his own negro slaves @ home, he fights to free white slaves 5000 miles away in European backyard ... well, the real reason of course is not some white slaves, but rather United Fruit merchant's interests

[Schewe]

how typical - instead of emancipating his own negro slaves @ home, he fights to free white slaves 5000 miles away in European backyard ... well, the real reason of course is not some white slaves, but rather United Fruit merchant's interests

And your point is?

Do you dispute the radical Islamist view? Are you with them or against them>

Yes, Jefferson had slaves....he also said that war with radical Islamists was a serious problem facing the US from there foreword?

So, are you in favor of death to infidels?

[Ray]

Well, it really isn't so easy...unless you understand the history of the middle east and the struggles between Sunni & Shiite Muslims and how that impacts Jews and Christian in the middle east, you really can't arrive at an easy solution.

Hamas is a radical terrorist organization funded by Saudi Arabia which is in long standing bitter fight with Shiite Muslims (since Mohammed wrote the Quran). The Shia–Sunni problems go back to battles caused after Mohammed's death. The Palestinians have been used by both sides of the Shia–Sunni conflict...

Israel is not an innocent bystander in the conflict but it is also a victim. So is the USA...

Most people don't know the history of the US vs. radical Islamists...the US has been at war with radical Islamists since Thomas Jefferson was President. He was the first President to field a navy to fight Islamist pirates off the coast of what is now Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya. Outposts of the Ottoman Empire.

Back in Jeffersons presidency, radical Islamists following the mandate of killing infidels used piracy in the Mediterranean Sea to steal goods being shipped to Europe. At the behest of shipping companies, Jefferson armed the first US navy to go over to the Mediterranean Sea to protect US ships and fight radical Islamists. That started the Barbary Wars.

The first armed ships carried "Marines" that carried out attacks on pirate bases. In the Marine hymn, the term "to the shores or Tripoli" is mentioned...that would be Tripoli in Libya. The term "leather necks" came into play because the Marines were outfitted with leather collars to make it harder for the Islamists to behead the Marines with scimitars...

The "West" has been at war with Islamists since the early 1800's.

England is also not without fault in the Middle East...boundaries were drawn though out the Middle East that were "convenient" but totally screwed up tradition tribal/religious boundaries...

There's no question that the middle east is totally screwed up...look at Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Yemen, and all the "countries" in the region. The countries are all artificial and that has lead to long standing conflict (thanks to England).

There will be no peace until radical Islamists quit trying to kill infidels (any non-Muslim religion including Jews & Christian). Heck, even trying to get Shia–Sunni Muslims to talk is impossible let alone Jews and Christians.

Sorry, but this is a much deeper historic conflict than what sadly is going on in Gaza at the moment. I only caution people here on LuLa to to be very, very careful picking sides and it's a far more complicated discussion that what I've seen here so far.

Muslims (non-Islamists) must seize control of their religion and stop the radical Islamists from taking control...I had hopes during the Arab Spring....but sadly, many Muslims were too terrified to stand up and reject the radicals. Can't say I blame them...the middle east is a really tough place where the value of human life is vastly under valued.

Just really grateful I live in the USA...

Good post, Jeff. I'm also grateful I live in Australia. The conflict that's been going on in the Middle East for centuries is truly mind-boggling. I literally can't get my mind around it. I can't find an explanation, and I'm generally pretty good at finding explanations.

What has happened in the current conflict, with over a thousand Palestinians killed so far, many of them civilians and children, is of course absolutely awful. However, it was even worse in the past, for the Jews.

Most of us have heard of the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. by the Romans. What is  not so widely known is that for about 4 years prior to that Roman invasion which resulted in the destruction of the temple, the Jews had successfully rebelled against the Romans, and kicked them out. For about 4 years, from 66-70 A.D.the Jews were in charge of their own country.

However, the Romans came back with a vengeance. They not only burned the temple to the ground, but the fire spread throughout the whole city of Jerusalem and razed it to the ground. The Romans plundered and pillaged the entire country. According to the Roman/Jewish historian, Josephus, about 1.1 million Jews were slaughtered, and 97,000 captured for slavery. That would have represented nearly half of the population of Judea at the time.

However tragic and unacceptable the current conflict appears to be, it was even worse in the past. 

[Manoli]

Israel is not an innocent bystander in the conflict but it is also a victim. So is the USA...

Master of the understatement, Jeff.

--
From The Times, today:
ISRAEL IS ACCUSED OF WAR CRIME AFTER SCHOOL SHELLING KILLS 20 REFUGEES

The United Nations has accused Israel of committing a war crime after 20 Gazan refugees sheltering in a UN-run school were killed in Israeli tank fire. More than 3,000 civilians were in the school, one of almost 100 UN buildings designated as internationally protected safe zones for those fleeing under evacuation orders from the Israeli army. Many were still asleep or at dawn prayers ...
--

No justification. None.

[stamper]

Israeli spokesman states they aren't targeting civilians. If so then they must have the worst gunners in the world?