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Author Topic: Monitor and Printer Gamut - Choosing the right Working Space  (Read 1337 times)

Robert Ardill

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Hi,

This is really a sort of restart of the “A Workflow with Beta RGB” topic, but with a different slant.

I’ve been looking at a Granger Rainbow and I have to admit to being very puzzled by it as the image displayed on the monitor is not at all what I would have expected.  I created the image from the instructions here:  http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/test-charts.shtml.

This is a photograph of what it looks like on my monitor (but no doubt it will look different on yours, even though it's converted to sRGB):



If anyone knows how to interpret this I would be very interested!

I’ve made a different sort of rainbow, using the exact same steps as for the Granger Rainbow, but instead of setting the mode of the grayscale gradient to Luminance, I set it to Hard Light, to get this:



This seems to be a more useful (or at least more understandable) spectrum, with fully saturated at the middle, going to white at the top and black at the bottom.

It’s interesting to soft-proof this image (created in Adobe RGB) with gamut-warning … and to see how much of it is out of gamut for a print profile with a very large gamut (a lot!).

Of course, when I then look at the 3D Lab plot of Adobe RGB (wireframe) against the printer profile (solid), it’s easy to see why this is:



A lot of the saturated colors in Adobe RGB are well outside the printer gamut.

Of course, with this particular paper, some of the printer gamut is also outside of the Adobe RGB gamut … but comparatively little.

What I’m getting to really is this: if the monitor gamut is nearly Adobe RGB (which mine is), and the printer gamuts are mostly within Adobe RGB, or not too far out, then I can see good reasons for using Adobe RGB as the working space and not too many good reasons for using working spaces with larger gamuts.

Essentially my argument for Adobe RGB is:
-   with Adobe RGB, I will be able to see all of the colors on the monitor
-   I can soft-proof to the print profile and see the effect and the OOG colors

And my argument against a larger working space like ProPhoto or Beta RGB is:
-   Potentially, a lot of the colors will be un-viewable on the monitor and unprintable on the printer, and figuring out if the color is viewable but not printable, not viewable but printable, or not viewable and not printable is a mess.
-   The benefit of the larger working space only applies to relatively few, very saturated colors – colors that I am personally very unlikely to ever want to print.  But if I did want to give the effect of a very saturated color then I can achieve this by using contrasting colors and tones, for example, rather than actually using the very saturated color itself (for example making a sunset look more vibrant by having some white, changing the hues of the yellows, oranges and reds etc).

I don’t see that using a large working space future-proofs for the time when wider gamut printing becomes available … simply because by then more than likely the image processing software will also have improved and I will want to rework the image anyway.  And anyway,  an image adjusted for a smaller gamut will need modification if it is going to be printed to make use of a wider gamut, otherwise it will likely not look right (or if it is fine with the smaller gamut then just don't touch it and it will still look the same).

I would be interested to know if you feel that I am missing some vital points here  :).

Robert
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FredAz

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Re: Monitor and Printer Gamut - Choosing the right Working Space
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2014, 09:32:46 am »

Dynamic range while processing....

As with most signal processing - you want a large number system to make sure anything you do to the data doesn't clip (run out of numbers) while you are manipulating the data.

You map into and out of this space to import and print -- but while processing, you have expanded range.
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Robert Ardill

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Re: Monitor and Printer Gamut - Choosing the right Working Space
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2014, 02:17:38 pm »

Dynamic range while processing....

As with most signal processing - you want a large number system to make sure anything you do to the data doesn't clip (run out of numbers) while you are manipulating the data.

You map into and out of this space to import and print -- but while processing, you have expanded range.
Yes, well of course we should work in 16-bit (or higher).

In terms of clipping due to running a filter, for example, surely this is just as likely to happen in ProPhoto as it would in Adobe RGB (since both are constrained by 16 bits)?  On the other hand, banding is less likely in a smaller workspace as the bits represent smaller color increments.

I would think that Photoshop would relax the gamut boundaries during a calculation (using 32-bit or floating point) and would only clip to the gamut boundary at the end of the calculation - which is OK because it's better to see the clipping at each step (so that we can avoid or minimize it) rather than getting a big chop on the final conversion to the destination.

At any rate, are you aware of any filters or adjustments that would cause this sort of problem?  And under what conditions? (because if we know that a particular adjustment requires a larger working space then we can make sure that we are in a larger working space if we intend to use that adjustment).

Robert


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digitaldog

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Re: Monitor and Printer Gamut - Choosing the right Working Space
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2014, 03:00:46 pm »

What is the clipping of color have to do with the bit depth?
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Robert Ardill

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Re: Monitor and Printer Gamut - Choosing the right Working Space
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2014, 07:09:46 am »

What is the clipping of color have to do with the bit depth?
Not much - there will be some effect as the gamut boundary will be more jagged with lower bit depths, so there will be a bit more clipping than with higher bit depths; and the bigger the working space the greater this effect will be.  But it's not really relevant ... I was responding to Fred's point regarding the use of a large number system so that computation doesn't run out of numbers: which clearly will happen with lower bit depths, resulting in effects like banding.

Obviously, using a smaller working space will result in clipping at the gamut boundary where none would occur in a larger working space.  If we apply a stupid levels or saturation adjustment then of course we're going to get clipping ... but is it worse to get the clipping when we apply this ill-advised adjustment (using a smaller working space)? ... or is it better not even to be aware of the inevitable clipping that we will get at the end (when we have to convert to the destination) because we are working in a huge working space?

You've mentioned the problem of the monitor gamut and not being able to see colors outside this gamut.  Is that not a lot worse than clipping that we can see (and so do something about in a timely manner) and being restricted to colors that we can see?

I should clarify that I'm talking about Photoshop here ... I'm not trying to make any sort of argument for Lightroom/ACR.  We can deal with OOG problems there by using the Monitor OOG Warning.  In Photoshop, we could work in ProPhoto or some other large working space and soft-proof to Adobe RGB (assuming our monitor is close to Adobe RGB).  It is another approach ... but it's kind of messy and I don't see that it gains much.  Soft-proofing to the destination will still be needed and there will still be potential problems with colors going outside the monitor gamut.

Robert
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 07:22:25 am by Robert Ardill »
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