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Author Topic: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?  (Read 5685 times)

Scott Hargis

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2014, 12:53:32 pm »

I "hid" the Folders section (I think, maybe it's just collapsed). I've never understood what function it serves. But then I mess around with images much less than most. I don't make multiple versions of images (I use "Virtual Copies" for that) and I never move them from their place in my archive once they're in there.

99% of what I shoot is captured while tethered to Lightroom, so everything is keyworded from the moment of creation. The other 1% gets keyworded during the import process.

There *is* a folder system; images get put into the archive organized by client and location, and my naming convention includes a date. But once they're on my studio drives, the rest is automatic (backups, off-site backups) and they never move from that location.

At that point, I can create collections in LR, do my editing, generate deliverables. I quite literally never think about folders again after I've imported my day's shoot.

ppmax2

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2014, 02:29:04 pm »

No more than Aperture does. Which can also reference files directly. The different names for the 'containers' of your pics is what confuses people. Don't think of it as two organisational systems but one set of photos with several ways of finding what you need, sometimes folders are easier to use, sometimes collections are, sometimes filtering is the best way.
I have a single LR catalogue in whatever location I want with images scattered across many different hard drives in their various folders. I can have a collection in LR with images from any, some or all of these locations. Catalogue gets backed up regularly.

In LR the folders are simply where files literally are on your HDs, in the folders that other software can see and use if need be. This is a perfectly useful way to access your images, albeit with some limitations. I use a Year/Month/Date-description system [see screengrab below], everything [work+personal] gets imported to LR by date and then I add a description to date. They are named the same way e.g. 2014-07-29 Jane's Portrait 001.CR2 On a busy day I may have several folders per day. This as the Aperture debacle has demonstrated is a useful starting point as it is a universal way of organising your images being recognised by different OSs and programmes - it is completely software agnostic. I can even find stuff by looking through my folders in Finder or Explorer should I want to.
To these shots you can add keywords for other types of organising such as in collections or any other form of metadata organising in any programme.

Collections in LR are made up of two kinds, smart and dumb. As well as collection sets, which are simply groups of collections. Images can be in as many collections as you want as they are all virtual.
Dumb Collections are simply Collections you drag images into or delete from. They can be heirachical, so you can nest them inside each other.
Smart Collections are where you set up rules so images get added automatically by whatever criteria you want. E.g. all models from Jamaica with blond hair [a small collection!], shots of your dog having a walk that are 3 stars + above, all shots of your family, all pictures taken in France that are not is Paris and so on.

The thing with using folders is that your images have to physically be somewhere, so you may as well make it organised, it takes next to no effort [unlike keywording, which is painfully hard work to be honest] and it will complement metadata organising very well. And for a lot of pics quite frankly that may be all the organising they need. In fact I can search for say bees in say July using the text filter on all the July photos and despite the fact I have not added any keywords or renamed the files the 3 images in the folder marked Lou's bees appear. They will also appear if I search entire photo collection along with other bee photos. I can even make a smart collection to find things inside folders which will save LR have to trawl database [see second screenshot]. Basically date-description folders give you even more flexibility and power if you like meta-data organisation and for less effort.

From an Aperture user: thanks for the description of how you organize, that is very helpful. In the vernacular of Aperture:
Catalog = Library
Collection = Album (smart and dumb)
Folder (place on disk) != Folder (means to organize projects, albums, etc)
Is there an analog in Lr to Aperture's Projects?

Not trying to start a flame war--just an honest question:
>> This as the Aperture debacle has demonstrated is a useful starting point as it is a universal way of organising your images being recognised by different OSs and programmes - it is completely software agnostic.

What debacle are you referring to?

I consider myself to be pretty organized and also interested in abstraction, should the need ever arise to switch applications. My Aperture photo workflow / organization goes like this:
* Import from camera to a designated "temp" import folder. Immediately run a rename script on the CR2s so that each file is named year-month-day_hour-minute-second[-sequenceNum].c2
* After renaming, I import to Aperture (my library is referenced)
* Immediately after import, I keyword, assign places, faces, and other metadata (which to be clear are stored in the Aperture library, but may be exported to XMP). I then delete the photos I don't want and empty the trash, which moves the original images to the "real" trash
* I then move all originals from the temp import folder to the appropriate "year" folder on my drive. I have a series of folders 1997 - 2014 (and counting)
* Aperture knows where these files were moved, because the link to the file is done by the filesystem node ID, which is independent of physical path
* If I ever need to relocate the originals, I use the appropriate command "Relocate Originals" or some such
* I create Smart Albums to create sets of images that contain all the images that meet certain criteria: keywords, adjustments, lens or camera type, etc...

I honestly don't see the need to have "direct access" to the original files as given in Lr. The layer of abstraction that Aperture provides is sufficient to ensure clarity (where the file resides, where to move it to if desired), but beyond that the "abstraction" serves to eliminate confusion (as evidenced by this thread), and lets you focus on the metadata "value" that you add: who the picture is of, what place it was taken, etc.

The thing I don't really like about Lr is how alternates of the "original" are treated. For example I have a picture of a fish that shows up in several different smart albums. In Aperture, if I edit the picture of the fish, all "references" to the fish photo reflect the changes I made to the original. OTOH, in Lr my experience has been that each reference to the fish photo may have it's own adjustments...which means I may have several different treatments of the fish photo, each in it's own container. I don't want this.

In Aperture, if I wanted different treatments of the fish I would make a new Version, and then include that Version in the fish in the album of my choice. In Lr Virtual Copies offer the same functionality. In both cases these alternates are explicitly created.

In Lr is there a way to prevent the creation of different alternates as described above?

thx much--
PP
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john beardsworth

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #22 on: July 29, 2014, 02:37:32 pm »

From an Aperture user: thanks for the description of how you organize, that is very helpful. In the vernacular of Aperture:
Catalog = Library
Collection = Album (smart and dumb)
Folder (place on disk) != Folder (means to organize projects, albums, etc)
Is there an analog in Lr to Aperture's Projects?

Folders = (approx) Reorganise Masters
Collection Sets + Collections = Projects, Albums, Books, Slideshows etc
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jjj

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #23 on: July 29, 2014, 07:19:33 pm »

Not trying to start a flame war--just an honest question:
>> This as the Aperture debacle has demonstrated is a useful starting point as it is a universal way of organising your images being recognised by different OSs and programmes - it is completely software agnostic.

What debacle are you referring to?
Aperture was marketed very specifically as a Pro App. That means it is a tool that as a Pro you rely on and expect to keep being updated and maintained. Apple's long silence re Aperture was pretty bad, but then simply saying they are dropping development of a programme which professionals based their workflow on with no easy way to move onto an alternative professional solution is pretty messy. No pro in their right mind should commit to a workflow relying on Apple products because this is not an unusual occurrence with Apple. Particularly as pros are a very small part of their business which is mainly phones these days.

Quote
I consider myself to be pretty organized and also interested in abstraction, should the need ever arise to switch applications. My Aperture photo workflow / organization goes like this:
* Import from camera to a designated "temp" import folder. Immediately run a rename script on the CR2s so that each file is named year-month-day_hour-minute-second[-sequenceNum].c2
* After renaming, I import to Aperture (my library is referenced)
* Immediately after import, I keyword, assign places, faces, and other metadata (which to be clear are stored in the Aperture library, but may be exported to XMP). I then delete the photos I don't want and empty the trash, which moves the original images to the "real" trash
* I then move all originals from the temp import folder to the appropriate "year" folder on my drive. I have a series of folders 1997 - 2014 (and counting)
* Aperture knows where these files were moved, because the link to the file is done by the filesystem node ID, which is independent of physical path
* If I ever need to relocate the originals, I use the appropriate command "Relocate Originals" or some such
* I create Smart Albums to create sets of images that contain all the images that meet certain criteria: keywords, adjustments, lens or camera type, etc...
The part I bolded, LR does for you when you import saving you the effort, but does it to individual dates. Which if importing a stack of images from say your phone that were taken over the last few weeks can be quite faffy if you do it manually.

Quote
I honestly don't see the need to have "direct access" to the original files as given in Lr. The layer of abstraction that Aperture provides is sufficient to ensure clarity (where the file resides, where to move it to if desired), but beyond that the "abstraction" serves to eliminate confusion (as evidenced by this thread), and lets you focus on the metadata "value" that you add: who the picture is of, what place it was taken, etc.
The problem that people who rely on meta data organising tend to not mention is that metadata organising involves a lot of hard work up front. The reason I use both folders and metadata is they complement each other nicely, where one is weak the other is strong. My other bug bear with finding stuff via metadata is all the false positives I end up with - in several different programmes this is an issue.
For example earlier on I searched for music by GusGus in iTunes, now when typing in Gus I also got unsurprisingly music by 'Angus + Julia Stone' and another 200 tracks where there was no seeming link to 'gus'. GusGus got just GusGus but if they spelt their name gus gus then I would get all the other 200 extraneous titles as well. This is a very specific example, but it happens a lot when I search for things using metadata by text. Verry annoying.


Quote
The thing I don't really like about Lr is how alternates of the "original" are treated. For example I have a picture of a fish that shows up in several different smart albums. In Aperture, if I edit the picture of the fish, all "references" to the fish photo reflect the changes I made to the original. OTOH, in Lr my experience has been that each reference to the fish photo may have it's own adjustments...which means I may have several different treatments of the fish photo, each in it's own container. I don't want this.

In Aperture, if I wanted different treatments of the fish I would make a new Version, and then include that Version in the fish in the album of my choice. In Lr Virtual Copies offer the same functionality. In both cases these alternates are explicitly created.

In Lr is there a way to prevent the creation of different alternates as described above?
That is not what should happen. If you alter an image then each copy whether Master or Virtual in other places should also change. I just tweaked a bee image in it's folder, made two VCs and tweaked them and the version in the smart collection also changed to match - as expected. I did a dumb collection too added them there and no matter in which of the three locations I altered the images the changes were seen in the other two places.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 07:25:37 pm by jjj »
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ppmax2

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #24 on: July 29, 2014, 07:57:08 pm »

Thanks for the reply jjj--much appreciated.

Regarding the debacle:
Products get discontinued all the time. Apple is (was, now that Jobs is gone?) notorious for their secrecy. Perhaps that's changing...perhaps not. While this may open a debate about stated vs. unstated intentions, I believe Apple's move shows they are *more* committed to photography rather than less, since they are integrating "the library" into the very fabric of their local (computer) and cloud-based ecosystems. We'll see where this lands....but in the end we may just be swapping one "black box" for another "black box" (containers where getting data in is easy...but getting data out not so easy...the ultimate lock-in).

What this event has taught me is that while I value my images, there is even more "value" locked up in the library: all the metadata that we add to our images, etc, to make them searchable, findable, etc. So while I am comfortable with the possibility of switching to Lr, C1, or even RawTherapee for rendering images, I have not yet found a solution for migrating my library elsewhere and not losing some of the value I have added (painstakingly, for over 15 years of digital images). And I've got more than just images in my Aperture library...video, PDFs, a few sound files too...it sounds like Media One is the only "multimedia" DAM alternative.

Regarding:
Quote
The problem that people who rely on meta data organising tend to not mention is that metadata organising involves a lot of hard work up front. The reason I use both folders and metadata is they complement each other nicely, where one is weak the other is strong. My other bug bear with finding stuff via metadata is all the false positives I end up with - in several different programmes this is an issue.
For example earlier on I searched for music by GusGus in iTunes, now when typing in Gus I also got unsurprisingly music by 'Angus + Julia Stone' and another 200 tracks where there was no seeming link to 'gus'. GusGus got just GusGus but if they spelt their name gus gus then I would get all the other 200 extraneous titles as well. This is a very specific example, but it happens a lot when I search for things using metadata by text. Verry annoying.

Great example (GusGus). It is true that adding metadata is hard work....but I feel it is critical work to maintain a large volume of images. The auto face recognition features in Aperture are pretty good...but they simple can't work for images where people are turned away from the camera after some degree. That my camera (5D3) doesn't offer GPS tagging (without paying extra) really chaps my hide...this should be standard on all cameras!

Quote
For example earlier on I searched for music by GusGus in iTunes, now when typing in Gus I also got unsurprisingly music by 'Angus

This is true if your metadata searches are based upon an input string and are "unconstrained" to any particular field...they will find anything that contains that string; it is not the case if your metadata searches are based upon the array of values you have already assigned and the search is constrained to specific fields. For example, I have keywords and "Places" assigned to images. I can create a Smart Folder that looks for Place = "San" (which will show images for San Francisco, San Jose, San Onofre, etc). However it will not return images tagged with "Hassan" because that's a name rather than a place. I generally don't create smart albums using "unconstrained" keyword searches, but your point still stands.

Quote
That is not what should happen. If you alter an image then each copy whether Master or Virtual in other places should also change. I just tweaked a bee image in it's folder, made two VCs and tweaked them and the version in the smart collection also changed to match - as expected. I did a dumb collection too added them there and no matter in which of the three locations I altered the images the changes were seen in the other two places.

That's a relief...I'll see what I may have done wrong (PEBCAK?)

thx
PP
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jjj

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2014, 08:01:20 pm »

That's a relief...I'll see what I may have done wrong (PEBCAK?)
An all too common ailment.  :D

Quote
That my camera (5D3) doesn't offer GPS tagging (without paying extra) really chaps my hide...this should be standard on all cameras!
I try and remember to take a photo with my phone. So when I import my images to LR, it adds pics on same day to same folder [or at least one next to it if phone pics are imported at a different time and I've already labelled folder with a description]. I simply add the DSLR pics to the location indicated in the map module by the phone or sync the metadata.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2014, 08:09:28 pm by jjj »
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ppmax2

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #26 on: July 29, 2014, 08:13:55 pm »

Quote
I try and remember to take a photo with my phone. So when I import my images to LR, it adds pics on same day to same folder [or at least one next to it if phone pics are imported at a different time and I've already labelled folder with a description]. I simply add the DSLR pics to the location indicated in the map module by the phone or sync the metadata.

Yes, that is a great technique and I do that too (you can also lift/stamp GPS data from image to image)...when I don't forget to do take a picture with my phone  ::)

PS are there any major changes in the Catalog between Lr 4 and 5?

Have a good evening--
PP
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mlewis

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Re: Catalog Help for an Aperture Refugee?
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2014, 05:39:39 am »

PS are there any major changes in the Catalog between Lr 4 and 5?
Not that I am aware of.  The catalogue It looks the same to me in LR4 & LR 5.
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